Is it safe to abandon PHP4 yet?

[Adam A Flynn]

Hey,

PHP5 has now been out for a fairly long time, and PHP6 is on its way. I know hosts were slow in adopting PHP5 for a long time, but, is it safe to use for commercial applications yet?

Personally, I like all the new features and extensions and hate needing to write code that's backwards compatable. But, some people I talk to still say PHP4 is still the norm.

What is your experience with which version is most used?

[lastcraft]

Hi.

PHP4 is the norm in 100% of my projects right now. I'm not happy about it and would love to migrate as quickly as possible. It's just not happening fast enough. I would expect the big shift to happen some time this year.

yours, Marcus

[Dr Livingston]

I started off with PHP5.0.1, then moved at various point, from 5.0.3 to 5.1.0 as recently as this month; My host moved from 5.0.3, to 5.0.4 last month so now the uptake isn't as slow as what it used to be, as it was earlier this year.

You have everything to gain by moving in my view, but as you note PHP6 is around the corner - so to speak, but there is nothing definite that I can find, so PHP6 could be another 12 months away, or it could be less...

No one knows, but as far as I'm concerned, PHP4.yuk is dead and buried. Let the celebrations continue

[OfficeOfTheLaw]

Hi.

PHP4 is the norm in 100% of my projects right now. I'm not happy about it and would love to migrate as quickly as possible. It's just not happening fast enough. I would expect the big shift to happen some time this year.

yours, Marcus

Sometimes it feels that a nicely designed system is difficult without exceptions... I hate php4 for having to check boolean values to see if a method passed or fails....

Frigging blows. If hosts can't hop on the php5 bandwagon soon, either I outright quit letting clients have their own hosts, or just start developing ruby or J2EE applications instead (which, of course, means cease letting clients choose their own host).

Is it me, or is anyone else fed up with clients who insist on keeping thier money local by using a local hosting solution that offers PHP 4.1.x with Mysql 3.23!? >

[Luke Redpath]

I think there are enough shared hosts out there that support PHP5. If you and other developers on your team are happy to make the move to PHP5, then I would do so. If your existing host doesn't support PHP5 and refuses to move to PHP5, move hosts.

[Dr Livingston]

Don't let your host strangle you; You do have options

[dreamscape]

No one knows, but as far as I'm concerned, PHP4.yuk is dead and buried.

What do you mean no one knows? All you have to do is look at the market [I'll take it you either skipped or never took any business classes ].

PHP 4 is still in wide use, and several projects still do not officially support PHP 5, so it [PHP 4] certainly is not dead.

The dual major PHP versions are not likely to go away anytime soon, and the most likely reality is that when PHP 6 comes out we'll have tri-major versions, those who choose to remain at PHP 4, those who choose to remain at or upgrade to PHP 5, and those who choose to go to PHP 6.

The other reality is that the PHP group has decided to make it as difficult as possible for hosts to move to PHP 5. When the shift from PHP 3 -> PHP 4 took place, the PHP 4 apache module was written so that it could run right beside PHP 3; so hosts ran both together, and then developers starting supporting PHP 4 more and more and eventually PHP 3 support died out.

However, with PHP 5, you cannot run it beside PHP 4 as an apache module. You have to run one as a CGI, and it is not the easiest thing to set up. This is a major reason hosts are slow moving to PHP 5. Either they have to cut out PHP 4 support, or do some fancy tricks to get both running together, which can be difficult to maintain especially with server managers like cPanel/WHM, etc.

I just hope when PHP 6 comes out, the devs provide a method to run it simultaneously with earlier versions. If they do that, then just as we saw a fairly quick migration from PHP 3 to PHP 4, I think we could see a fairly quick migration from PHP 4/5 to PHP 6. If not, then either prepare to support 3 major versions or fence yourself off to only deal with a portion of the community.

[dreamscape]

Don't let your host strangle you

Let's be fair here. Hosts have to strangle customers because the PHP group decided to hang the hosts.

[jayboots]

The other reality is that the PHP group has decided to make it as difficult as possible for hosts to move to PHP 5. When the shift from PHP 3 -> PHP 4 took place, the PHP 4 apache module was written so that it could run right beside PHP 3; so hosts ran both together, and then developers starting supporting PHP 4 more and more and eventually PHP 3 support died out.

However, with PHP 5, you cannot run it beside PHP 4 as an apache module. You have to run one as a CGI, and it is not the easiest thing to set up. This is a major reason hosts are slow moving to PHP 5. Either they have to cut out PHP 4 support, or do some fancy tricks to get both running together, which can be difficult to maintain especially with server managers like cPanel/WHM, etc.

I keep seeing things like this, but it is not entirely true. It ignores the fact that you can have multiple instances of your webserver running on different ports and have them reverse proxied to a unified front-side instance. Running PHP side-by-side is more a matter of adminstrator fluency and the quality of your hosting rather than a technical limitation on the part of PHP. Personally, I don't want PHP assuming roles which technically lie outside its responsibilities and for which there is already battle-hardened infrastructure available.

BTW: does anyone REALLY expect a production quality version of PHP6 in 2006? I know I don't!

[Dr Livingston]

It ignores the fact that you can have multiple instances of your webserver running on different ports and have them reverse proxied to a unified front-side instance. Running PHP side-by-side is more a matter of adminstrator fluency and the quality of your hosting rather than a technical limitation on the part of PHP.

Exactly; There are hosts out there who host both versions of PHP; Some will no doubt find a way to host all three versions of PHP in due course.

The other reality is that the PHP group has decided to make it as difficult as possible for hosts to move to PHP 5.

Facts and figures if you may... Personally I don't understand where the problem lies, except maybe with specific hosts who are unwilling, for whatever reason, to make the move.

Like I said - you do have options. One of those options is to find another host, and tell your current host where to go - in no uncertain terms. You are the customer after all, are you not?

Don't let your host throttle you with lame excuses.

[dreamscape]

rather than a technical limitation on the part of PHP.

It is a technical limitation that the PHP group decided to put on PHP. Let's not deny the obvious. When PHP 4 was released, the apache module was designed to run right beside PHP 3. With PHP 5, they decided to not do that anymore, and the only way to get them working together is to run one as a CGI or to run multiple apache instances. Neither are very good solutions, and that both won't run as apache modules together is a limitation that the devs placed on PHP.

Personally I don't understand where the problem lies, except maybe with specific hosts who are unwilling, for whatever reason, to make the move.
...
Don't let your host throttle you with lame excuses.

It isn't a lame excuse, it is a simple fact that the PHP 5 apache module is incompatible with the PHP 4 module, which places hosts in a very difficult position. That is one of the major contributing factors to the migration from PHP 4 to PHP 5 not happening for a good portion of the community. It is not that difficult to understand, but you might consider praying to the demi-gods for guidance if you can't understand it.

[jayboots]

It is a technical limitation that the PHP group decided to put on PHP. Let's not deny the obvious. When PHP 4 was released, the apache module was designed to run right beside PHP 3. With PHP 5, they decided to not do that anymore, and the only way to get them working together is to run one as a CGI or to run multiple apache instances. Neither are very good solutions, and that both won't run as apache modules together is a limitation that the devs placed on PHP.

Sorry, I find your argument weak. IIR, PHP3/4 only ran side-by-side if you used different file extensions for your scripts. Foobar. Yet I digress because it doesn't matter in any conceivable way -- the desired effect (side-by-side php4/5) is very possible with current technology. I see absolutely no justification to support what you claim to be imperative. Indeed, I think you should explain why running two different php modules in the same process is preferable to any of the other possibilities which are currently (and actually) possible. FWIW, do other modules work with side-by-side versions in the same apache process? I suspect not and I also suspect no one is interested in making it so.

It isn't a lame excuse, it is a simple fact that the PHP 5 apache module is incompatible with the PHP 4 module, which places hosts in a very difficult position. That is one of the major contributing factors to the migration from PHP 4 to PHP 5 not happening for a good portion of the community. It is not that difficult to understand, but you might consider praying to the demi-gods for guidance if you can't understand it.

IMO, PHP5 adoption was being held back by 5.0.x lack of polish while PHP 5.1.x is worthy of adoption. IIR, similar happened for PHP4. Widespread adoption occurred at 4.1.x which was a much better and more polished release than 4.0.x.

Back to hosts being in a difficult position -- I really don't know what to say to that. They have the technology at their disposal to deploy PHP4 and PHP5. It is not even hard. Besides that, their job -- their very raison d'etre -- is hosting. If they can't sort things like this out without having it spoon fed to them in tasty idiot sized bites, then they have no business being hosters.

[Luke Redpath]

Let's be fair here. Hosts have to strangle customers because the PHP group decided to hang the hosts.

Is it so unrealistic to expect hosts to offer two separate plans, a PHP4 plan that runs off run group of servers and a PHP5 plan that runs off another group?

[Dr Livingston]

It is a technical limitation that the PHP group decided to put on PHP.

Sorry, but I'm not convinced that this is the reason that there is a lack of support for PHP4 and PHP5 co-hosting. There are hosts that offer both and they faced no real challenges. Any difficulties that exist, can be overcome.

The problem lies solely with a particular host and not with the technology; As for praying to God, well let's keep religion out of the question; God ain't interested.

[akrabat]

I think that the much better performance of PHP 5.1 will be a motivating factor tbh.

We've decided to move to php 5.x only for 2006. We are in the fortunate position of hosting the vast majority of our sites on our own servers though.

[Bleys]

PHP5 has now been out for a fairly long time, and PHP6 is on its way. I know hosts were slow in adopting PHP5 for a long time, but, is it safe to use for commercial applications yet?

I sell a commercial application that requires PHP5. I think that sales have been hurt a bit by the fact that PHP5 support in shared hosting environments is far from ubiquitous. Right now I'm averaging about 2-3 sales per week with one in three buyers emailing me after the fact saying they just realized their host doesn't support PHP5 yet.

By far the most popular response I got back from hosts as to why they did not support PHP5 (and I asked A LOT of them), was "CPanel doesn't support it yet." Which to mean translates to ignorance on the part of web host company owners.

I did receive a fair number of responses that when PHP5.1 went stable they would upgrade--and indeed I do think I have seen slight rise in the number of PHP5 capable hosts since that happened.

[Adam A Flynn]

Thanks Bleys. That was basically why I was asking the question. I'm just starting to work on a commerical application and I need to make the decision between PHP4 and PHP5. From a developer stand-point, I like PHP5 a lot more. PHP5 is, in my opinion, "cleaner" and better suited to develop an OO-heavy application in, but, I don't want to be isolating significant sectors of the market if I don't have to.

This is my first commercial application, so I'm a bit new to the whole thing and I don't want to do anything which would limit possible sales. At the same time, I don't want to be looking at a complete rewrite when PHP6 comes out because the code I wrote now is lagging horribly behind the times...

Which is the lesser of two evils?

[Bleys]

I think it depends... can you live with a few months or a year of slow sales? Or do you want instant gratification?

To add to my earlier response, I have seen sales pick up the past 3-4 weeks, which may correlate to the release of PHP 5.1.1 at the end of November. But I can't say for certain.

Edit:

I should also add that some large hosts like ASmallOrange and Site5 are currently testing PHP5. ASO has said that they plan for all new boxes to run PHP5 if their testing this/next week goes well, and Site5 announced 2 days ago that they are in the final stages of PHP5 testing.

This is a very good sign for people who are developing PHP5-based commercial apps.

[Adam A Flynn]

Well, I can live with slower sales, but instant gratification is usually fun too. :P

How do you handle a situation where someone realises that the software isn't PHP4 compatable? You mentioned contacting some of the hosts. How does all that usually work out for you?

[Bleys]

Fortunately the majority of my customers have decided to just go ahead and purchase a PHP5 hosting account (I recommend serverseed.com to them, usually, who are reliable and cheap). I have given a couple of refunds, as well. I figure if I am nice about it, when their host upgrades there's a good chance they'll come back and order again.

As for contacting hosts, I mainly did that when I was trying to decide if I should write the script in PHP5 or not... I did a broad survey to see how many hosts had plans to upgrade, when, etc.

[dreamscape]

Sorry, but I'm not convinced that this is the reason that there is a lack of support for PHP4 and PHP5 co-hosting.

Woah there Dr. God there is not one reason for anything... it is a combination of reasons, and if you think that it is not a contributing factor, then you better think again.

No you really don't even have to think... all you have to do is look a little. And well if you think that hosts that think that don't deserve to be hosts, well that may be your opinion, but it is not based in reality, because the market says otherwise. If they really didn't deserve to be hosts because they don't know enough about hosting, then they would have gone out of business by now. You can talk about what they don't know until you're blue in the face, but the bottom line is that the market continues to bear them, so obviously that are doing something right and providing somebody somewhere with something that is of value.

You're "some apples are red so all apples must be red" analogy is also extremely shortsighted (There are hosts that offer both [so all must be able to offer both]). It doesn't hurt to try a little critical thinking.

[turboweb]

It's good practice to not upgrade your existing production servers, however it's not an excuse to not introduce newer servers that you could migrate your clients to if they need php5 or 6 or....

[execute]

Problem is guys, it's not the host, but developers. I mean I am ok with PHP 4, I have already learned all this coding, it is far superior than PHP 3, but other than a few minor OOP changes and function changes what does PHP 5 have to offer me? I don't see the motive.

Not only that a very small minority of hosts use PHP 5. While everyone has fully accepted PHP 4. We need a better motive to switch.

[Adam A Flynn]

My motives for switching to PHP5 are mostly the OOP changes (a lot of my code is OOP heavy, so, having more/better functionality helps a lot) and all the new PECL extensions that only support PHP >= 5. In many cases, they just make life a lot easier.

Off topic, cheers to whoever made this thread featured.

[exigent]

I'm using site5 and they offer PHP4 but due to demand for php5, before they completely migrate they are just testing with a .php5 extension.