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  1. #1
    SitePoint Evangelist Fergal's Avatar
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    PayPal ChargeBacks

    I paid http://ehandyman.net/ $65 via PayPal on 24 Nov, as a down payment for PHP MYSQL work. Unfortunately he has not completed the work and refuses to respond to my emails or forum PM's.

    I want to contact PayPal about this and try to get my money back. However, I've heard that trying to get money back like this can result in PayPal users losing their account.

    If it came to a choice I'd rather lose the $65 than my PayPal account.

    Is losing my account something I should be concerned about, or should I go ahead and contact PayPal about this?

    Thanks!
    Fergal Crawley (Previous Username: Proudirish.com)
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  2. #2
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    I've never heard of Paypal cancelling an account because it issued a chargeback. If you believe you deserve to get your money back go ahead and file one. I've done it before with no issues and got my money back.

  3. #3
    Web Design Ireland cianuro's Avatar
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    I have been selling digital goods and services for years now with Paypal. Their basic policy has not changed.

    File a "non-receipt" complaint, NOT a "not as described" complaint and you'll get 100% of your money back. Nice to see it working out for some people, as I get it a lot. People purchase my product, I send it. Its a done deal. I have many happy customers, but at least once a month some A**hole comes along and files a "non receipt complaint" because they know there is no way for me to prove a digital delivery to PP. (Well, one actually and if the sale is large enough, I do it).

    Anyway, do as I mentioned and you'll get it all back.

  4. #4
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by cianuro
    I have been selling digital goods and services for years now with Paypal. Their basic policy has not changed.

    File a "non-receipt" complaint, NOT a "not as described" complaint and you'll get 100% of your money back. Nice to see it working out for some people, as I get it a lot. People purchase my product, I send it. Its a done deal. I have many happy customers, but at least once a month some A**hole comes along and files a "non receipt complaint" because they know there is no way for me to prove a digital delivery to PP. (Well, one actually and if the sale is large enough, I do it).

    Anyway, do as I mentioned and you'll get it all back.
    Just got an idiot trying this on me. We sell digital downloads and this guy buys our ebook (it's for a very very specific subject, call it 'blue widget'), 2 minutes later emails me asking for his money back because he doesn't know what a 'blue widget' is, in fact he apparently doesn't know what a 'widget' is and bought the book by mistake. Funny, because his referring URL was a search on Yahoo for 'blue widget ebook'.....

    Of course as it is a digital product, Paypal will just give him his money back. So I have to make the decision - refund him or risk losing the money anyway, plus the chargeback fee. Thing is, I'm up for a fight, so I might just try to battle this one as I have plenty of evidence to back this one up - but history has shown that Paypal really don't give a toss and will relish the chance to charge me that chargeback fee. I may just close my account if this one goes against me, we have a merchant account anyway.

  5. #5
    Web Design Ireland cianuro's Avatar
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    Shadowbox, let me let you in on a little secret.
    Burn the ebook to CD, and send it via the CHEAPEST courier that provides a tracking number in a plain package. Better still, send it in a box filled with newspaper. As long as the CD is in there.

    PayPal will side with you. Never once has this failed on me.
    The only time I dont do it is when the shipping via courier is more ezpensive then the money earned. Poetic Justice.

    Scum like that are thiefs. Plain and simple. I don't feel bad doing it to them. I'm actually doing nothing, NOTHING wrong. Just following protocol.

  6. #6
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Nice, I like that - unfortunately the ebook is £20 and the guy is in the US, so shipping is going to set me back too much.

    He just emailed me back after I busted him on the referring URL - 'apparently' his friends were over and ordered the book without his permission....he still wants his refund:

    'please respect my saying and issue me my refund. I'm sorry it happen but it's the trueth sir.'

    It's pathetic. Luckily these are few and far between, In fact I'd rather they just go for the chargeback in the first place and not bother asking for a refund. At least it saves me some time.

  7. #7
    Web Design Ireland cianuro's Avatar
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    I know exactly what you mean. In that case, I would just issue the refund and accept it. I do on all software I sell thats under $100. Not worth the hassle.

    Oh well, what goes around, comes around.

  8. #8
    SitePoint Evangelist Fergal's Avatar
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    Thanks for responses, I've filed a complaint at PayPal and I will post back here if the issue is resolved.
    Fergal Crawley (Previous Username: Proudirish.com)
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  9. #9
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    If you are only getting a few chargebacks why would you go through the trouble of burning the software to cd and mailing it. The extra charge for courier fees combined with the extra time involved probably isn't worth the work unless you get a lot of chargebacks... best bet is probably to keep it all automated and eat the chargebacks unless they start costing you too much...

  10. #10
    SitePoint Addict paypalrb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proudirish.com
    I want to contact PayPal about this and try to get my money back. However, I've heard that trying to get money back like this can result in PayPal users losing their account.

    If it came to a choice I'd rather lose the $65 than my PayPal account.

    Is losing my account something I should be concerned about, or should I go ahead and contact PayPal about this?

    Thanks!
    To view PayPal's policies on Buyer Complaints and chargebacks, go to the PayPal website, click on the User Agreement link, and click on the Buyer Complaint Policy link. You will probably be most interested in section 4, "Relationship between Buyer Complaint Policy and Credit Card Chargeback Rights."

    If you file a Buyer Complaint now, and it is not found in your favor, then after the complaint is closed or cancelled you may still be able to file a chargeback with your credit card company, depending on their policies (e.g. it may depend on whether they have a time limit on when you can file a chargeback).

    To file a Buyer Complaint for a particular transaction, log in to your PayPal account, locate the transaction, and click the "Details" link. Scroll to the bottom of the Transaction Details page and click the "Resolution Center" link. Once you are in the Resolution Center, click "File a Claim". When you click "Continue", the transaction ID filled in in the form and ready for you to submit.

    EDIT: Oops, this portion of the Buyer Complaint Policy is probably even more relevant:

    The Buyer Complaint Policy only applies to payments for tangible, physical goods which can be shipped, and excludes all other payments, including but not limited to payments for intangibles, for services or for licenses and other access to digital content.
    You may still want to see if there is any Resolution Center option for you to file a claim; if it automatically denies the claim because it was not for tangible goods, you can still go to your credit card company for a chargeback.
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  11. #11
    Web Design Ireland cianuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulchie
    If you are only getting a few chargebacks why would you go through the trouble of burning the software to cd and mailing it. The extra charge for courier fees combined with the extra time involved probably isn't worth the work unless you get a lot of chargebacks... best bet is probably to keep it all automated and eat the chargebacks unless they start costing you too much...
    Thats what I meant. If I sell a piece of software for $200, I will certainly spend the $20 on shipping the CD. If Its $20 software, of course not.


    ProudIrish: Good luck with your dispute.
    BTW, SDS do not give a tracking number PAYPAL accept. Typical.

  12. #12
    SitePoint Guru wild boar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowbox
    Just got an idiot trying this on me. We sell digital downloads and this guy buys our ebook (it's for a very very specific subject, call it 'blue widget'), 2 minutes later emails me asking for his money back because he doesn't know what a 'blue widget' is, in fact he apparently doesn't know what a 'widget' is and bought the book by mistake. Funny, because his referring URL was a search on Yahoo for 'blue widget ebook'.....

    Of course as it is a digital product, Paypal will just give him his money back. So I have to make the decision - refund him or risk losing the money anyway, plus the chargeback fee. Thing is, I'm up for a fight, so I might just try to battle this one as I have plenty of evidence to back this one up - but history has shown that Paypal really don't give a toss and will relish the chance to charge me that chargeback fee. I may just close my account if this one goes against me, we have a merchant account anyway.

    shadowbox, let us know how that goes..

  13. #13
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    At the moment, I'm just ignoring it as I'm suspecting the guy may be full of hot air and my responses were hopefull officious enough to warn him off 'messing ' with us

    I noticed the 'Paypal Preferred' scheme which involves placing a logo on our site - apparently by being in this scheme you avoid chargeback fees - info is pretty vague on their site, I can't see anywhere where you can sign up, I just found the HTML code to add. Maybe that's enough?

    Anyone know more about this?

  14. #14
    Web Design Ireland cianuro's Avatar
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    Hmm, Never heard of it.

    You never mentioned what form of complaint he issued. Was it non receipt or not as described?

  15. #15
    SitePoint Guru wild boar's Avatar
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    I don't think there is such thing as the paypal preferred scheme.. I'm sure paypalrb will fill us in here shortly.

  16. #16
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    If you log into paypal and search the help section for 'chargeback fee' this comes up:

    Why am I charged a £7.00 GBP fee for chargeback settlement?

    To cover the cost of processing chargebacks PayPal charges a £7.00 GBP chargeback settlement fee to sellers who are determined to be at fault for credit card payment chargebacks. The fee will be waived in those cases where the sellers have fulfilled all the requirements of PayPal's Seller Protection Policy. The chargeback settlement fee will also be waived for all sellers participating in our PayPal Preferred programme.

  17. #17
    SitePoint Addict paypalrb's Avatar
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    Yes, there is such a thing as a "PayPal Preferred" program. From looking through a few of the FAQs, it appears that you need to apply for a PayPal Debit Card in order to enable the "PayPal Preferred" link in your Account Overview. You would then use the link to apply for "PayPal Preferred" status.

    For more information, go to the PayPal website, click the Help link on the top right, and look for the following FAQs:

    "How do I apply for the PayPal Preferred program?"
    "I have my own website. Can I enroll in the PayPal Preferred Program?"
    "What is the PayPal Preferred on eBay preference?"
    "How do I turn on the PayPal Preferred on eBay preference?"

    (You can search for these exact questions, minus the quotation marks, to find the matching FAQs.)
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  18. #18
    Web Design Ireland cianuro's Avatar
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    Yet again, seems like this is only for US citizens. Thaks for the info though.

  19. #19
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Yeah, can't find a thing about this in the UK FAQ. Not sure I want a Paypal debit card anyway....

  20. #20
    Web Design Ireland cianuro's Avatar
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    I would be lethal with one! Anyway, my wallet has enough cards.

  21. #21
    SitePoint Addict paypalrb's Avatar
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    Yes, the PayPal Debit Card is currently available in the US only.

    You might try searching for "PayPal Preferred on eBay" to see if there is any UK feature for this that is not tied to the Debit Card.
    Sell more worldwide!
    PayPal Website Payments Pro and Virtual Terminal
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  22. #22
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    Angry

    I have just had a huge battle with Paypal. I am in the UK. A woman in Alaska bought some items from me (9 items in total divided into two transactions on two separate dates). She paid on paypal in September and the items were sent to address that was confirmed by both Paypal and ebay. In December she claimed that she hadn't authorised these payments. Both of these parcels went to her PO Box address. Surely someone fraudulently using someone else's credit card doesn't have items sent to the card holder??? The dispute is not whether she received the items but that she didn't authorise the payments. So send back my items!! She has now been kicked off ebay. Paypal have closed the dispute and I have lost the money (over £90) because the parcels weren't trackable online (I did have proof of postage for both packages). Now, I have tonight checked with paypal and the items have to be trackable all the way. ie from the moment I post it until the moment they sign for it at the other end. If this is the case, why do paypal allow people to have PO boxes as confirmed addresses? The only way you can send anything to the USA from the UK that is trackable all the way is by Fedex or UPS which would probably cost upwards of £30 - how many ebay buyers in the US will pay this for something to be sent from the UK? Paypal do NOT make it clear to sellers that this is the case. I think it is a disgrace. In the case of paypal it is not "buyer beware" but "SELLER BEWARE". On top of that I have been charged £7 for each "lost" case. Thanks Paypal and Happy New Year to you too.

  23. #23
    reads the ********* Crier silver trophybronze trophy longneck's Avatar
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    from http://www.royalmail.com/portal/rm/c...5&catId=400033

    "International Signed For® gives you the confidence and re-assurance of having yourmail signed for on delivery, just about anywhere in the world. It's a relatively low price to pay for peace of mind... International Signed For costs just £3.30 per item on top of your normal postage."

  24. #24
    SitePoint Evangelist Fergal's Avatar
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    I've received the response below from PayPal
    Unfortunately, PayPal was not able to resolve this dispute because the item
    purchased was virtual or intangible. As a result, we have not taken any
    action against either account at this time. However, this complaint has
    been noted in the seller's record for future reference.
    Doesn't exactly inspire confidence when buying services using PayPal, does it?
    Fergal Crawley (Previous Username: Proudirish.com)
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  25. #25
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Bleys's Avatar
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    Wish I had seen this thread earlier! PayPal isn't of any help when recovering money for intangible goods, so you have to go through your bank or credit card company (whichever you used to fund the transaction). I was ripped off by someone a month or two ago and I had my bank issue a chargeback (they submit a form to PayPal saying my account had been charged without my permission). I also alerted PayPal about it via phone and email to make sure they knew the complaint was against a specific user and not PayPal itself. PayPal was helpful insofar as understanding the situation and not penalizing me at all, and my bank was able to recover the money for me within 3-4 days.
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