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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerelictMan
    Not trying to gang up on Selkirk here, but I agree...while I have no doubt that PHP is an extremely popular language in the free software arena, ...
    I believe this may be Selkirk's point. For smaller projects and low to no cost budgets PHP reigns supreme, but in the enterprise where cost and accountability are the reality, the tables turn and PHP no longer has the edge of low cost and ease of use.

    That's the way I understood it and it makes sense (to me anyway).
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
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  2. #102
    Web developer Carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffee_ninja
    Okay okay, phpBB was a BAD example... In all honesty I listed that example without having ever looked at its code, but simply having installed and used it.

    After I made that statement and was corrected by numerous people, I downloaded phpBB 2.0 and checked out the source, and I see exactly why you folks corrected me What a mess! I opened up index.php and one of the first things I see is a whole bunch of dbms-dependant SQL queries. Not the way I would do it, but who am I to judge, anyway?

    What would those of you defending PHP's enterprise readiness in this debate consider a few good examples of enterprise-ready apps written in PHP? I promise I'll leave my foot in my mouth and just listen for a while.
    I believe there is another project that is taking phpBB and programming it using php5 and OOP. A former phpBB user that was dissatisfied with the lack of structure in phpBB.

    But you are correct in bringing phpBB into the picture because though it may be the most gruesome form of PHP around it is also one ofthe most popular and used by many "enterprises" before they jump ship an go with vBulliten.

    An acid test for PHP might be if it is used by the militatry and medical programs. I have written and worked on applications for htese branches written in Active Server Pages and VB.dlls . Does anyone have a sample of PHP in either category?

  3. #103
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    PHP is hugely popular among newbies for one simple reason: anyone can throw a few lines of code together and make their site look cool (I know, cause I am one of those n00b :P)

    But you are correct in bringing phpBB into the picture because though it may be the most gruesome form of PHP around it is also one ofthe most popular and used by many "enterprises" before they jump ship an go with vBulliten.
    Enterprises uses phpBB? Which enterprise?

    An acid test for PHP might be if it is used by the militatry and medical programs. I have written and worked on applications for htese branches written in Active Server Pages and VB.dlls . Does anyone have a sample of PHP in either category?
    Lol, if a patient die because of Microsoft's or Sun's or another big shot's technology, you sue their pants off and get rich.

    Now, if a patient die because of some random coder, from some part of the world, who probably can't be traced, who are you going to sue? Everyone who contributed to PHP?


  4. #104
    SitePoint Guru quenting's Avatar
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    Yeah probably any comment should be attached with the author's opinion on what is an "enterprise" to qualify for the term "enterprise ready".
    My own definition would be a language is "enterprise ready" if it could be adopted by a large part of the companies with more than (at least) a hundred employees and not focussed on IT.
    The fact a language can be adopted by 20 people IT companies doesn't make it "enterprise ready" IMHO.
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  5. #105
    eschew sesquipedalians silver trophy sweatje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quenting
    Yeah probably any comment should be attached with the author's opinion on what is an "enterprise" to qualify for the term "enterprise ready".
    My own definition would be a language is "enterprise ready" if it could be adopted by a large part of the companies with more than (at least) a hundred employees and not focussed on IT.
    The fact a language can be adopted by 20 people IT companies doesn't make it "enterprise ready" IMHO.
    In addition to what "enterprise" means, we might want to consider what "adopting" means. I work for a Fortune 100 Industrial Manufacture with > $20,000,000,000 annual revenue and more than 120,000 employees. I have been using PHP for more than four years in both intranet and batch job processing capacities. While our Business Unit, and several others, are making extensive use of PHP it is still a rather small fish in the IT language pond here. I spent several hours on conference calls this year with our Global Infrastructure Committee advocating PHP, and yet there is still no "official" stance on in. PHP has yet to be sanctified or vilified in our organization.

    So what is adoption?
    Jason Sweat ZCE - jsweat_php@yahoo.com
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  6. #106
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    I can see that my last post wasn't very clear. I was talking about web applications. PHP is a niche tool for web apps and I thought that restriction was obvious. Apparently, not. This is why I didn't report open C or Delphi projects from rent a coder.

    Is my methodology flawed? Of course. I was also talking about end user applications, not tools. How do you measure that? But, it was a freakin forum post, not an MBA thesis.

    Here are the top numbers from that article on sourceforge (minus C and C++):

    Java (16738 projects)
    PHP (12175 projects)
    Perl (6209 projects)
    Python (4542 projects)

    Combine that with the freshmeat numbers and PHP is obviously doing well in the Free/OSS category. Restrict that to web applications and I think PHP leads Java. Is "dominates" too strong? Fine. Change that to "leads" and reboot. Please don't miss the whole point for one word.

    PHP may not get much respect on the high end, but on the low end its doing quite well, thank you.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl
    An acid test for PHP might be if it is used by the militatry and medical programs. I have written and worked on applications for htese branches written in Active Server Pages and VB.dlls . Does anyone have a sample of PHP in either category?
    Does ClearHealth count?

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweatje
    So what is adoption?
    Perhaps its more the size of the project than the size of the company that matters?

  9. #109
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    Maybe. Just because a company has less than x number of employees, that's not to say that it wouldn't need the requirements of an application, like for like, a larger company would normally be seeking.

    One important factor is the data the application is intended for, as well. It's not the application it's self that is precious to a company, but the data it operates on. Maybe the larger the company, the greater the data is and therefore more importance is placed on that data.

    There are just too many factors to compare from one company to another, in what their expectations of what enterprise level really is. They all have different needs, and different priorities.

  10. #110
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    Lol, if a patient die because of Microsoft's or Sun's or another big shot's technology, you sue their pants off and get rich
    I don't think so.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by freak
    Lol, if a patient die because of Microsoft's or Sun's or another big shot's technology, you sue their pants off and get rich.
    Haha, if only. It called "limitation of liability", and you will see in it many licenses, including Sun licensing documents. Example:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.java.com/en/download/license.jsp
    LIMITATION OF LIABILITY. TO THE EXTENT NOT PROHIBITED BY LAW, IN NO EVENT WILL SUN OR ITS LICENSORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY LOST REVENUE, PROFIT OR DATA, OR FOR SPECIAL, INDIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL, INCIDENTAL OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES, HOWEVER CAUSED REGARDLESS OF THE THEORY OF LIABILITY, ARISING OUT OF OR RELATED TO THE USE OF OR INABILITY TO USE SOFTWARE, EVEN IF SUN HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. In no event will Sun's liability to you, whether in contract, tort (including negligence), or otherwise, exceed the amount paid by you for Software under this Agreement. The foregoing limitations will apply even if the above stated warranty fails of its essential purpose. Some states do not allow the exclusion of incidental or consequential damages, so some of the terms above may not be applicable to you.
    Now this doesn't mean they will have no liability in any cases, but it is pretty clear they won't get sued very often for damages caused by the use of their software.

  12. #112
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    It's also called "remoteness" in common law which means that the person you are trying to to sue are protected because they had no idea or control of how you intended to use their product or the results that may come of it.

    ~Based on common sense.
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweatje
    While our Business Unit, and several others, are making extensive use of PHP it is still a rather small fish in the IT language pond here.... So what is adoption?
    If you want a comparison to one of the "big fish" languages, my own experience, coming from an ERP background (80,000+ tables in the application), is that PHP does almost everything I want. I suppose the only language specific item that I really miss is native database abstraction, where commands like SELECT, INSERT, UPDATE and DELETE are keywords. Hibernate's HQL is the closest thing I've seen.

    Where PHP really pales in comparison is in the overall development environment. Some examples:

    1) the ability to change code directly on the development server (in a group environment) that has the entire code base and test it there immediately vs. working on a local machine first
    2) the ability to group changes to programs, database schema, and/or application configuration for later deployment when I click on the save button
    3) the ability to release a group of changes once complete
    4) the ability to configure a system landscape that deployments move across (typically development, user test, and production)
    5) the ability to centrally control the deployment of changes across the landscape
    6) the ability to step through code in debug mode
    7) the ability to click on a button and check all code for syntax errors
    8) the ability to click on a field in a select statement and be brought to the definition of the database table
    9) the ability to click on a button while I'm working on a program and see earlier versions of the code
    10) the ability to add object classes to a central repository, which emilinates the need for "includes"

    Some of you reading this may think that I could make the same criticisms of Java. Actually, I do. Despite Java's "enterprise-ready" status, I’ve seen Java abandoned on more than one occasion when the option to use a language with a development environment that has the items listed above was available.

    I suppose PHP could implement a lot of the above items with a web based development environment that is tightly integrated with tools like SVN, phing, PEAR build, etc., preferably tightly integrated with a portal/MVC framework as well. My prediction is that the first open source language that has an accompanying "enterprise development environment" will blow the others away. Java has a bit of a head start with the portal/MVC framework in the emerging industry-backed Java Server Faces standard, but since the other items all have proprietary implementations, you could well argue that a language like PHP, which does not have entrenched money behind it, has the opportunity to more quickly adopt an environment as a de-facto standard.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by randallemery
    Where PHP really pales in comparison is in the overall development environment. Some examples:

    1) the ability to change code directly on the development server (in a group environment) that has the entire code base and test it there immediately vs. working on a local machine first
    2) the ability to group changes to programs, database schema, and/or application configuration for later deployment when I click on the save button
    3) the ability to release a group of changes once complete
    4) the ability to configure a system landscape that deployments move across (typically development, user test, and production)
    5) the ability to centrally control the deployment of changes across the landscape
    6) the ability to step through code in debug mode
    7) the ability to click on a button and check all code for syntax errors
    8) the ability to click on a field in a select statement and be brought to the definition of the database table
    9) the ability to click on a button while I'm working on a program and see earlier versions of the code
    10) the ability to add object classes to a central repository, which emilinates the need for "includes"
    There is a list of trying to jam a Java shaped peg through a PHP shaped hole. If you want PHP to be IDE-centric, compiled and have no includes ... guess what you are asking for -- Java. And that's beside the fact that there is almost nothing about languages in your list. It is more a "what's your favorite editor" thread starter. I develop in Eclipse and can do most everything on that list -- but I'm sure not in the exact button pushing style desired.

    It's bizarre to think that the scripting language development style is so misunderstood. You don't hear PHP programmers saying, "Why do those kernel guys use those complier thingies?" -- there is an understanding of different development styles make sense in different circumstances.
    Christopher

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by arborint
    And that's beside the fact that there is almost nothing about languages in your list. It is more a "what's your favorite editor" thread starter. I develop in Eclipse and can do most everything on that list -- but I'm sure not in the exact button pushing style desired.
    Yes. My point is that it's not the language that is holding PHP back from greater adoption at the enterprise level. I believe that if you have a usable (button pushing style) development environment geared to the development of enterprise applications, the adoption of PHP by enterprises will increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by arborint
    If you want PHP to be IDE-centric, compiled and have no includes ... guess what you are asking for -- Java... It's bizarre to think that the scripting language development style is so misunderstood. You don't hear PHP programmers saying, "Why do those kernel guys use those complier thingies?" -- there is an understanding of different development styles make sense in different circumstances.
    Just for the record, my comparison is mainly to an environment for an interpretted language that has more in common with PHP than Java, in my opinion.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by randallemery
    I believe that if you have a usable (button pushing style) development environment geared to the development of enterprise applications, the adoption of PHP by enterprises will increase.
    I think there is an insinuation that "enterprise developers" might be substandard in that they require a "button pushing style development environment." I am quite sure you will find total shock and indignation by the members of this forum at such outlandish ideas.
    Christopher

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by arborint
    I think there is an insinuation that "enterprise developers" might be substandard in that they require a "button pushing style development environment." I am quite sure you will find total shock and indignation by the members of this forum at such outlandish ideas.
    I don't believe that was randallemery's insinuation however, some standard IDE's used with Enterprise development are geared more to a drag-n-drop methodology or declaritive coding than good old fashioned code editing.
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  18. #118
    SitePoint Addict mx2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awasson
    I don't believe that was randallemery's insinuation however, some standard IDE's used with Enterprise development are geared more to a drag-n-drop methodology or declaritive coding than good old fashioned code editing.
    maybe for a destop application, but not for a web application. hand coding and snippets and code generation are far a better choice and if you have an oop framework, it helps some people to have intellisence. Drag and drop and the web usually doesnt seem to work very well and generates bloated code.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mx2k
    ... Drag and drop and the web usually doesnt seem to work very well and generates bloated code.
    Agreed
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by mx2k
    Drag and drop and the web usually doesnt seem to work very well and generates bloated code.
    Oh ... now those "push button" enterprise developers are creating bloated code with their IDE dependencies!! The horror! Oh, when will this nightmare end?!? Can no one come to defend these substandard, button pushing, enterprise paycheck (and dwindling benefits) collecting, IDE dependent heros of modern software development?!?
    Christopher

  21. #121
    SitePoint Zealot DerelictMan's Avatar
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    Oh ... now those "push button" enterprise developers are creating bloated code with their IDE dependencies!! The horror! Oh, when will this nightmare end?!? Can no one come to defend these substandard, button pushing, enterprise paycheck (and dwindling benefits) collecting, IDE dependent heros of modern software development?!?
    Dude, you busted my sarcasm-o-meter...the needle wrapped all the way around to the other side!!

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    Ha! Glad to see you guys have a sense of humor. I am sitting here laughing at the thought that I would think that enterprise developers are substandard because they require button pushing environments, but I guess I can see how you *might* think that from the post, if you didn’t know me – which in fairness you don't. I guess I should introduce where I’m coming from, since I haven’t reached the title of zealot, addict, or evangelist…

    When I hear “enterprise ready” I think of Oracle/Peoplesoft/SAP/BAAN systems. That’s the world I came from. I remember when I learned Java, a friend of mine, an experienced Java programmer, told me, “It’s not you; it’s this hard and this slow for everybody… you guys don’t know how easy you have it. It will take a Java guy 8 hours to do the same thing that you do in 1 hour.” I guess I was just trying to share some of the things that made it easier.

    Then again, maybe it was that deep down I had hoped that other people would look at these things, think, “Yeah, that sounds really cool. Let’s go make that.” Then I could sit back, sip a beer, and when it’s done say “Great job guys”. Yeah, that’s more likely it… Shameless, I know. But when I saw the title of the thread, I just had to try it.

  23. #123
    SitePoint Addict mx2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arborint
    Oh ... now those "push button" enterprise developers are creating bloated code with their IDE dependencies!! The horror! Oh, when will this nightmare end?!? Can no one come to defend these substandard, button pushing, enterprise paycheck (and dwindling benefits) collecting, IDE dependent heros of modern software development?!?
    programmers and sarcasm ...who knew?

    ...... Super IDE Developer...to the rescue....beware... my substandard red button of doom will cause you harm.

  24. #124
    Employed Again Viflux's Avatar
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    The concept of "enterprise developers", at least where I am employed (and today is my last day) is growing more and more scarce.

    We serve 14 million customers around the world, and have assets over $365B. I say that qualifies my employer (soon-to-be-former) as "enterprise class".

    Why are enterprise developers scarce here? Simple. The vast, vast, vast majority of our work is outsourced. Let someone else do the coding, the initial bug fixes, and any feature enhancements. We do have a team of developers to work on legacy systems and implement mission-critical maintenance fixes, but all new development work is done offshore.

    As to the enterprise readiness of PHP, I can only attest to the environment in which I am currently employed.

    PHP will never be used for any project at this corporation for one simple reason. It has nothing to do with the open-source nature of PHP, the syntax of PHP, the lack of killer IDE's for PHP, or anything that one can fault PHP itself for.

    The main reason PHP will never be used here (for the forseeable future), is accountability.

    The name of the game amongst managers is passing the blame. The easier it is to do that, the more likely that a given technology will be chosen.

    When we bring in consultants to help setup new infrastructure, they can offer a number of different options.

    If they say "We're going to set you up with some Windows 2003 boxes running IIS and develop the entire platform on .NET", that's what we go with. In that situation, we would then bring in a team of MS certified engineers either directly from MS or through IBM. In that case, one of MS or IBM is accountable should something go astray.

    Often times they'll recommend a Java-based solution. These are run off IBM maintained servers. Again, IBM will be accountable for any problems.

    If they were to recommend a PHP based solution (which, IMO, is perfectly acceptable for some of the products we offer), where would we go? Does Zend offer the ability to hire teams of "PHP Experts" to setup and maintain the infrastructure? Does IBM? Not to my knowledge, and that is why we would never go with them.

    Also, the managers at our company take the word of the consultants as gospel. Consultants know there's more money in it for them with an IBM or MS based solution simply because of the costs of bringing in said engineers. Our managers don't know any better, and they're the one making decisions.

    Until that changes, PHP's enterprise readiness (or lack thereof) is a non-issue.

  25. #125
    SitePoint Guru LinhGB's Avatar
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    So to sum it up, a language is considered enterprise-ready when there's an enterprise backing it, because enterprises only deal with other enterprises. Its enterprise readiness has nothing much to do with its technical prowess. Am I too far off the mark with that?
    "I disapprove of what I say,
    but I will defend to the death my right to say it."


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