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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShytKicka
    You have no idea who you are talking to. Another script kiddie.
    Who? Just another 'ShytKicka'.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Wray
    I think PHP 6, if it acts as a fresh start, could be enterprise ready for new projects. And as long as they do it well, backwards compatibility could be maintained as best as possible throughout all further versions.
    I agree. PHP would have to clean up a lot of stuff though. I know that several of the issues I quoted are being addressed in ver. 6.

    However, to cleaning up will eventually break BC again. Some of the issues facing PHP (like moving functions out of global scope and into namespaces) are, well, challenging to do w/o seriously breaking old code. And how about unified error reporting/handling? Do you change the old functions to start throwing exceptions instead of returning failcodes, or do you deprecate the existing function, duplicating the functionality in new ones, which will throw exceptions?

    I have many beefs with the technical aspects of PHP. But the real obstacles for PHP to succeed in the enterprise are about predictability and trust.

    The typical enterprise manager do not care whether a product is open source or not. He's concerned with costs, risks and productivity. A tool/platform being Open Source does not disqualify it for internal applications. Nor is it an advantage per se. The possible lower costs may certaintly be an advantage, but he'll have to weigh that against the possible risks incurred, and against possible loss of productivity compared to the alternatives.

    And many of the arguments traditionally invoked to propone OS carry absolutely no weight in the enterprise. The "if it's broken then we can just fix it ourselves - we have the source" argument sounds *nightmare* to an enterprise manager. If he's been in business for just a short time he'll know what that can lead to in terms of upgrade problems, testing problems, liability, broken dependencies, service contract problems etc. And the typical enterprise manager is not going to pay for members of his staff to contribute to OS projects. Only the most visionary of enterprises do that, and typically only those who can see an strategic advantage in promoting OS.

    PHP still struggles with the multitude of techinal problems of evolving PHP into a stable, dependable, predictable and scalable platform which is worthy of the trust of the enterprise decisionmakers.

    At the same time the alternative platforms are charging ahead. The major contenders are clearly Java (JSF and Tapestry), ASP.NET and, (to comfort our young enthustiatic friend) possibly the re-invented ColdFusion. Tapestry, JSF and ASP.NET have left the "script-mingled-html-stream" paradigm of the 1st generation of dynamic web page tools. They are all component oriented. This is a concept which is vastly superior when developing more intensly interactive pages (a.k.a. web applications).

    Compared to PHP, Java has a quite good record at comforting the enterprises (as has ASP.NET but in a much shorter timeframe). Very, very few BC breaking changes have been introduced in Java. Generally, features are deprecated several "major" releases before they are taken out. With an announced frequency of 18 months between major releases, the developers have typically had *years* to prepare for BC breaking changes. That matters in an enterprise with a 3-digit number of different applications (small and big).

    Quote Originally Posted by mx2k
    [...] but there is only so much you can do with server tags/script
    Yes, but server tags can generate client side script. Especially ASP.NET has an impressive gallery of "server tags" which generates client-side JavaScript, resulting in an integrated, interactive user experience without the need for the developer to code a single line of JavaScript. The extensibility gained from the object/component oriented design (as opposed to the lackluster OO in PHP) has enabled an array of 3rd party developers to go even further. Check out www.telerik.com, www.componentart.com, www.infragistics.com. AJAX was ready in the ASP.NET world before it was called AJAX.
    /mouse

  3. #78
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    Couple of cents...

    http://www.comptechdoc.org/independent/enterprise/

    # Security - Should be able to be sure information is not being stolen by those we don't want to have access to it.
    # Scalability - Should be able to accomodate an increase in clients.
    # Cost - Should be easy to program.
    # Management - Should provide ability to manage the implementation including version control software and software that helps manage team effort with reguard to providing the solution.
    # Portable - Should be able to accomodate changes in technology.
    Most of the business concerns I've seen mentioned are considered no matter who it is etc, hardware etc being a different matter... see googled link above...

    For me, from the above list, I think its the last one in regard to PHP. For example I recently looked a nifty Framework that was metnioned here in the forums, quite nice etc ... except for the moment that it (the Framework) is ported into another application due to namespace issues on the user-defined functions (which could also apply to classes etc)...

    Once the namespaces are handled similiar to Java, imo, a php framework could be scaled up or down as either a standalone site framework or as a module of another application. Not only that but then BC might then be more easily provided, for a crude example, quite often I see in the Java API this function is deprecated, use the same named function but of a different package etc...

  4. #79
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    PHP or the Programmers Using it?

    Call it flamebait, but I'll say it anyway...

    Do you guys think its PHP that is not enterprise-ready, or its largely ameteurish user base? I'm not saying that all PHP programmers are ameteurs, that's certainly not the case. But one's can't disregard the fact that PHP's simplicity and availability has made it the language of choice for many nonprogrammers interested in web developement to pick up. So you've got an enormous population of self-taught programmers hacking at code that lacks the solidarity and foundation of a good education in computer science.

    On the flip side you have a lot of very solid PHP apps used by a lot of people that have been written by some very good PHP coders, such as phpBB and Wordpress. To me this shows that a good team of programmers can create a beautiful, fast, scalable piece of software with PHP.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffee_ninja
    On the flip side you have a lot of very solid PHP apps used by a lot of people that have been written by some very good PHP coders, such as phpBB
    I wouldn't say phpBB is well written...

  6. #81
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    Fair enough Maybe I should've said more to the effect of "proven over time" than "well written."

  7. #82
    SitePoint Guru BerislavLopac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjymouse
    AJAX was ready in the ASP.NET world before it was called AJAX.
    Oh, come on!

    "Ajax" was ready everywhere before it was called "ajax" -- the point of "ajax", or remote scripting as it was known before it became famous -- is client-side calls made to the server-side, and it cares **** about what is on the server side. ASP.NET, PHP, plain XML/HTML/text or monkeys typing away the responses, it's all the same to the client-side script as long as the response conforms to a predetermined format.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerislavLopac
    "Ajax" was ready everywhere before it was called "ajax" -- the point of "ajax", or remote scripting as it was known before it became famous -- is client-side calls made to the server-side, and it cares **** about what is on the server side.
    I think you missed my point. You could use server-side tags to leverage AJAX without writing a single line of JavaScript, without knowing about XmlHttprequest. For a lack of a unified term it was called things like "callback" controls, demand-loading (tree-nodes of a tree-view) etc.

    Anyway, it a little OT.
    /mouse

  9. #84
    Web developer Carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    That is complete and utter rubbish, to make a statement like that. Is PHP limited just because it's a server side development language, compared against a general programming language?

    Of course it's not. You certainly couldn't describe it as being Enterprise Ready, or otherwise, based on that comparison
    I beg to differ. It is quite obvious that it is limited in what it can do because at present it is a webserver language. As mentioned before PHPgtk and other projects like Phalanger are trying to break through this barrier. But at present it still exists in the same manner as the limitations of Cold Fusion, Vbscript, server-side javascript and others. The future of PHP does not make it what it is today.

    As far a the comparison goes does anyone know of a language that they consider to be enterprise ready that is not also a general purpose language? Off the top of my head I can't think of one.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffee_ninja
    Do you guys think its PHP that is not enterprise-ready, or its largely ameteurish user base?
    As you can tell from above I think that PHP still have some evolving to do. I really don't think the amateur rate hurts PHP. I know of many enterprise developers who have given PHP a spin. It has mainly been Java developers, and they have virtually all of them been somewhat less than impressed.

    That said I really do believe that the amateur rate has influenced the direction/decisions of the PHP. It's about time they turned around and paid some attention to the typical enterprise virtues.

    Some amateurs turns zealots. I do believe that zealots often hurt their cause in the enterprise. Many managers are instictively suspicious towards over-enthusiastic, tunneled-visioned employees. Are they promoting their own carreer, or are they having the enterprise best interests on mind?
    /mouse

  11. #86
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    I would turn this argument on its ear and suggest that Java is not enterprise ready. There are major JVM version issues, classpath headaches between environments, oddities that creep in because of different application server paradigms, multiple competing class libraries, database connection problems, session nightmares in clustering setups -- and on the programming community side, bad code and lousy design decisions abound. Believe me, coming from a "low-end" PHP background (my own freelance work), some of the stuff I've had to deal with in the enterprise Java world over the past year at my day job was shocking.

    And Java takes up ridiculous amounts of memory and CPU. Shocking.

    Jared
    Willowgarden: rapid application platform for PHP 5
    xajax: fast and easy PHP Ajax library
    Web software architecture blog: The Idea Basket

  12. #87
    Web developer Carl's Avatar
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    I know of three open source applications done in PHP that I would consider to be "enterprise ready".

    Typo3
    Gforge
    Midgard

    I consider them enterprise applications because of how they are built. They just happen to be done using PHP and stand out from the typical phpBB group. If more like these were created with PHP then I am sure that any failings of PHP would be over looked in large businesses.

  13. #88
    SitePoint Addict mx2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjymouse



    Yes, but server tags can generate client side script. Especially ASP.NET has an impressive gallery of "server tags" which generates client-side JavaScript, resulting in an integrated, interactive user experience without the need for the developer to code a single line of JavaScript. The extensibility gained from the object/component oriented design (as opposed to the lackluster OO in PHP) has enabled an array of 3rd party developers to go even further. Check out www.telerik.com, www.componentart.com, www.infragistics.com. AJAX was ready in the ASP.NET world before it was called AJAX.
    i was referring to the suedo script in cold fusion, not client side, emascript or javascript.

    yes i know of all 3. and all 3 generated a mess of html and scripts in the 1.1 version of dot net. I'm hoping for a cleaner version of controls from each company in .Net 2.0, especially most of the controls were not always fully compatible with firefox and they always put in their own proprietary attributes inside of html elements (thats evil) and very few controls ever render readabily when you go to view the html source.

    . The Web components of infragistics are not as impressive as their windows counterparts. while they sometimes do speed up development i still hate the abuse of tables in most of the controls developed by each company. (or using span tags to surround block elements cough::radeditor::cough, thats illegal markup)

    but i do give these guys credit, infragistics have put in some awesome javascript functionality and component art has created a slick menu control that can be wicked fast.

    I haven't had time to test out the 2.0 stuff yet, which most likely will probably be infragistics first, then telerik's rad editor (5.5 i think is the latest).
    that actually will validate the html in the control. Component art really has not released anything with call backs up till late that i can recall.

    however the developer should know some javascript, otherwise you can't extend the functionality of the controls. I've had to add some enhancements to the infragistics grid js in order to prompt the user to save before leaving the web page or going to another screen, but yet refresh the data on post back without triggering the confirmation when entering data on rows.

    I have a whole dll full of javascript just to extend functionality for infragistics... so its not wise to be too dependent on 3rd parties to develop everything for you. ( Hopefully people will start developing their own composite controls now that MS has developed so many of them with the new framework. )



    p.s. you could and can build components in php. prado is a component driven framework based heavily on dot net, but they are slowing migrating away to make use php's own way of doing things. I've looked into the code and its very well written. the only things that really turned me off was the spec, being stuck with com & spec in the template view, and the web config was a little weird. but in 3.0 i believe they are tossing the .spec, making it all xhtml compliant and some other things.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by mx2k
    i was referring to the suedo script in cold fusion, not client side, emascript or javascript.
    Ah! My bad.

    Yes, I know prado. Checked it out when it was picked as a winner in some kind of contest a couple years ago. It's just that the PHP world seems so damned fragmented! Prado is but one out of a bazillion frameworks aiming at solving the same problem.
    /mouse

  15. #90
    SitePoint Addict mx2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjymouse
    Ah! My bad.

    Yes, I know prado. Checked it out when it was picked as a winner in some kind of contest a couple years ago. It's just that the PHP world seems so damned fragmented! Prado is but one out of a bazillion frameworks aiming at solving the same problem.

    don't sweat it, you made some really good points thus far. yes there are a ton of frameworks in php. and for some time now i've advocated it that php's base framework would probably be best written in c, possibly as an extention, before zend ever announced anything.

    but there are a ton of frameworks in dot net as well, built on top of dot net itself and php will probably migrate towards that to some degree once the new zend framework comes out.

    CSLA comes to mind, infragistics has their own framework, and i'm putting together a small one for myself to help make developing websites even more rapid and automated. and i'm sure you probably have your own as well.

  16. #91
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShytKicka
    Can somebody that prefers open source software explain to me briefly why exactly YOU side with open source instead of closed source?

    This is going to be interesting.
    This is not a open-source vs closed-source debate.
    But because we are talking about "taking risks" in the enterprise, I will highlight a very important advantage of open-source:
    an open-source project cannot be killed.
    There are a couple of companies that released source code under open-source, but later changed their minds about it. Such an example would be the Firebird database released by Borland. And although Borland stoped supporting Firebird, the project survived.

    A well known example of a closed-source platform being killed is Visual Basic 6.
    Of course, it is still in use, but it is a dead-end as Microsoft won't evolve it further, and won't provide unlimited support, especially because Visual Basic 6, which was the most succesfull development platform for Windows, interfered with plans for the new .NET platform.
    Visual Basic.NET is better than VB 6, but everyone knows that VB.NET is a whole different language, and that .NET is a whole different platform than VB 6.

    If we think of PHP, it really doesn't matter if Zend drops all development, or that PHP 6 is going to suck.
    No, because any company or organization can pick PHP ver.4, or ver.5 and make a fork.

    As long as PHP is needed, PHP will be here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjymouse
    Compared to PHP, Java has a quite good record at comforting the enterprises (as has ASP.NET but in a much shorter timeframe).
    It is fair to say ASP.NET is just a framework. We should talk about .NET as the platform, and not ASP.NET.
    Being succesful in a shorter timeframe is a useless statement, as Microsoft cloned Java (a prooven technology in year 2000), and has a budget to tell you how great it is.
    (I do love throwing flames at Microsoft)

  17. #92
    SitePoint Guru BerislavLopac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl
    As far a the comparison goes does anyone know of a language that they consider to be enterprise ready that is not also a general purpose language? Off the top of my head I can't think of one.
    PL/SQL is one. XSLT is another.

  18. #93
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReeD
    I wouldn't say phpBB is well written...
    Or indeed beautiful, fast, stable and scalable

  19. #94
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    Joel Spolsky has a pretty good article on software pricing that gives some insight into corporate purchasing decisions. He divides software purchases into three categories, free, cheap, and dear, based on the difficulty of navigating the corporate purchasing machine. He is talking about packaged software, but the principle still applies:

    Free
    PHP dominates this space. Programs listed on hotscripts.com:

    PHP: 10,648
    Perl: 4,114
    ASP: 2,435
    ASP .NET: 520
    Java: 249
    Cold Fusion: 251
    Python: 71
    Ruby: no listings

    I read recently that the New York Times is using WordPress for their blogs. Does that make WordPress enterprise software?

    Although, as Joel suggests in his article, free software can have some negative connotations. "You get what you pay for."

    Free software also tends to have rough spots. Common user experience paradigms, consistent APIs, and uniform management are not necessarily natural strong points of open source software. More on open source.

    Cheap
    "$10 - $1000, sold to a very large number of people at a low price without a salesforce. Most shrinkwrapped consumer and small business software falls into this category"

    there are many successful software packages written in PHP: vBulletin, x-cart, sugarCRM, ModernBill, and Plesk come to mind. There are many more.

    If you were going to write a pre-packaged web application and sell it for less than $1,000, what language would you pick to have the largest market?

    PHP also does well for cheap custom programming. Open projects on rent a coder:

    PHP: 268 open
    Java 199 open
    ASP .NET: 83 open
    ASP: 74 open
    Perl: 55 open
    Python: 17 open
    Cold Fusion: 5 open
    Ruby: 2 open

    Dear

    "$75,000 - $1,000,000, sold to a handful of rich big companies using a team of slick salespeople"

    The more money that is involved (say a couple million in programmer's salaries), the tougher the corporate decision making gauntlet becomes and the more stakeholders get involved.

    Many of PHP's advantages like cheap hosting, large deployed base, and simple hello world aren't really that big of a deal in the context of a large project.

    Borrowing from Herzberg's theory of motivation, there are many hygienic factors involved with the decision to pick a development tool. The absence of a hygiene factor can kill a development tool, but its presence doesn't necessarily ensure its use.

    Many of the things that are suggested here are hygienic. If PHP's function library is re-organized into a class library, will PHP suddenly take off in the enterprise? No. But, its one less rough edge to get caught in the process of running the gauntlet.

    I think Zend's PHP Framework is another hygienic factor. Is the lack of a mature PHP framework harming PHP in the enterprise? You bet. Will PHP take the enterprise by storm once ZPF released? I doubt it.

    After ZPF, Zend will pick a different hygienic factor to take care of. My wish would be to hire someone like Kent Beck, Ward Cunningham, or Martin Fowler to design a proper OO class library for PHP. (No RecursiveIteratorIterator nonsense.) PHP has a terrible OO reputation. Absolutely terrible and the only way to overcome it is to hire a well known OO guru to tell everyone how great the OO support in PHP 7 is with its fantastic new class library (that he wrote).

    What PHP needs to sell into the "Dear" space, or Enterprise space, is a clear advantage over the alternatives. So far thats been that its simpler than Java. However, Ruby also has that advantage along with the advantage that 9 out of 10 OO guru's prefer ruby.

    PHP faces some very stiff competition in the enterprise space. In the cheap web application space, PHP has already "tipped" and I wouldn't be surprised to see it dominate for a decade or more.

    More on enterprise PHP.

  20. #95
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Free
    PHP dominates this space....
    WTF !?!

    So, you base your claims on hotscript.com and rentacoder

    I don't think you will find answers on a language's popularity on hotscripts.com and RentACoder. So PHP free scripts are popular, so PHP is outsourced more, what does that tell you ? Nothing, especially because I can come up with statistics that show Java as a leader on SourceForge.
    Is that relevant to you ?

    Or maybe should I highlight the strong embrancement of open-source in Java land ? (http://java-source.net/)
    What does it proove ?
    Well, nothing, but I could say, just as you, that Java is free.

    PHP may be a leader in the free market, but it certainly does not dominate anything, and such claims are hard to prove anyway.




    What is really interesting is that every platform wants a piece of the pie Java has. 2 years ago the Internet was filled with hype generated by PHP.
    Every PHP `guru` proclaimed victory over Java. Yeah, the code that `just works` vs the pure but hard to learn architecture.

    But nowadays, when an article states that Netscape founder says PHP beats Java ... I find it quite pathetic coming from the same guy who thought Netscape would kill Microsoft ... especially since others are dropping PHP ... and even more interesting, Andreessen joined board of Zend Technologies.

    Besides Andreessen, who else thinks that PHP will replace Java (even for web development, because for Intranets, Java still kicks ***) ?

    In 2000 (as I remember) Microsoft announced .NET, the great Java killer.
    Did .NET took some Java market-share ? No, it only forced Visual C++ and Basic devs to migrate ... which are a lot of devs, but still, no winnings there.

    We now have Ruby that is surrounded by lots of hype.
    But after the hype will be gone, Ruby faces the most difficult test, the test of time. And if it won't win a large user base until then, it will fail pretty quickly.

    So, just out of curiousity, which are those 9 out of 10 OO gurus that prefer Ruby ? Just because Martin Fowler likes Ruby it really doesn't mean he prefers it. And really, I don't give a damn about what Mr. Fowler thinks, since his thoughts are in the best interest of his company.
    Just because Bruce Tate wrote some books doesn't make it a luminary, simply because Ruby right now sells books better, and his books suck IMHO.
    And last time I checked, 10 out of 10 OO gurus prefer SmalTalk
    But how is that relevant *today* ?



    I just wrote this piece of junk to state my oppinion:
    PHP has a big problem - instead of creating a niche market, it is going after Java's market share. And the hype is all gone, but the uglyness remains.


    @Selkirk, as ussual, I like your writing skills, I like your blog, but real facts my friend are the key to good articles.

  21. #96
    simple tester McGruff's Avatar
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    Thanks for the joel Spolsky link - very interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selkirk
    My wish would be to hire someone like Kent Beck, Ward Cunningham, or Martin Fowler to design a proper OO class library for PHP. (No RecursiveIteratorIterator nonsense.) PHP has a terrible OO reputation. Absolutely terrible and the only way to overcome it is to hire a well known OO guru to tell everyone how great the OO support in PHP 7 is with its fantastic new class library (that he wrote).
    Now that is something I'd like to see.

  22. #97
    simple tester McGruff's Avatar
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    Bonefry: maybe you could tone it down a little bit?

  23. #98
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    Red face phpBB... bad example.

    Okay okay, phpBB was a BAD example... In all honesty I listed that example without having ever looked at its code, but simply having installed and used it.

    After I made that statement and was corrected by numerous people, I downloaded phpBB 2.0 and checked out the source, and I see exactly why you folks corrected me What a mess! I opened up index.php and one of the first things I see is a whole bunch of dbms-dependant SQL queries. Not the way I would do it, but who am I to judge, anyway?

    What would those of you defending PHP's enterprise readiness in this debate consider a few good examples of enterprise-ready apps written in PHP? I promise I'll leave my foot in my mouth and just listen for a while.

  24. #99
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    In 2000 (as I remember) Microsoft announced .NET, the great Java killer.
    Did .NET took some Java market-share ? No, it only forced Visual C++ and Basic devs to migrate ... which are a lot of devs, but still, no winnings there.
    The main point in the initial release of .NET was not to take market share so much as it was to defend market shrare. Everyone and their mother knew that ASP.OLD/COM was a pretty horrid bunch of smelly stuff under the hood and that doing anything modern and complex was an effort in fighting the system. .NET stopped the bleed of big-time, cutting edge, enterprise shops wholly to java.

    The point of .NET 2.0 is to pull the little guys back in. Note the very free VS Express Editions and SQL 2005 Express. Combine that with the very nature of .NET 2.0 where it becomes very easy to crank out simple stuff in very short timeframes using alot of drag and drop and limited knowlege of the internals means that Java will get killed on the small-scale, web end. And PHP has a tough fight in front of it.

  25. #100
    SitePoint Zealot DerelictMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    Quote Originally Posted by Selkirk
    Free
    PHP dominates this space. Programs listed on hotscripts.com:

    PHP: 10,648
    Perl: 4,114
    ASP: 2,435
    ASP .NET: 520
    Java: 249
    Cold Fusion: 251
    Python: 71
    Ruby: no listings
    WTF !?!

    So, you base your claims on hotscript.com and rentacoder

    I don't think you will find answers on a language's popularity on hotscripts.com and RentACoder.
    [...]
    PHP may be a leader in the free market, but it certainly does not dominate anything, and such claims are hard to prove anyway.
    Not trying to gang up on Selkirk here, but I agree...while I have no doubt that PHP is an extremely popular language in the free software arena, I think the only real conclusion that can be drawn from Selkirk's list is that PHP is popular at Hotscripts.com. In addition to Sourceforge's statistics, here are the numbers from Freshmeat:

    Java: 4,514
    Perl: 3,551
    PHP: 3,482
    Python: 2,215
    Ruby: 284
    C#: 210
    ASP: 40
    Cold Fusion: 27

    Of course, it's just as hard to draw any definitive conclusion from the Freshmeat numbers as it is the Hotscripts.com numbers. For one thing, Freshmeat lists commercial/non-free projects in addition to the free ones (but then again, so does Hotscripts.com). And as bonefry says, it's hard to prove or disprove something like this anyway. However, I feel that the Freshmeat list is probably a bit more representative of what's out there than the Hotscripts.com list. Freshmeat is more of an "old school" type directory, so PHP is probably underrepresented, and Perl perhaps a bit overrepresented, but the Hotscripts.com list sells both Python and Java way short, IMHO...


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