Please assure me that PHP is for me...

[Clenard]

Hello there. I was always trying to shy away from javascript because some people could turn it off and stop the whole working of a site. But should i learn javascript and incorporate it into my CMS and other projects? Is it worth my time to learn the DOM stuff and all that?

Cheers for replies.
James

That's the beauty of PHP, IMO. I never learned JavaScript until a few months ago and it was sooooo easy to learn after using PHP for so long!

PHP is only growing though, forget what the RoR enthusiasts are trying to insist.

The new Zend Framework is coming out soon, there's your newest Buzzword for the next few months.

[Takitei]

I agree with you Clenard. Your comment is totally right.

[littlejim84]

Zend Framework? I'll take a look around the net for stuff on it.

Thanks for all your comments... You lot have overall convinced me to continue with my 'PHP journey'. I've now brought the book, PHP Anthology: Volume 1, because I want to try and up my skills and get into OOP. I ultimately feel this will be good for me to learn OOP because when I start learning Java in the future (which I reckon will be my next language of choice) it will help me with that too. Java is all about OOP isn't it?

So Clenard, you started to learn Javascript and that? Is it worth the time to get into Javascript and DOM and all that? I like the fact that PHP is server-side, so it don't really matter what browser is being used and with which settings... I do my form validation with PHP, and I'm quite happy with it, so is it worth me learning Javascript and DOM? What else are it's advantages?

Any help is much appriciated. Thanks for all the replies so far. Very helpful
James

[Clenard]

Zend Framework? I'll take a look around the net for stuff on it.

Thanks for all your comments... You lot have overall convinced me to continue with my 'PHP journey'. I've now brought the book, PHP Anthology: Volume 1, because I want to try and up my skills and get into OOP. I ultimately feel this will be good for me to learn OOP because when I start learning Java in the future (which I reckon will be my next language of choice) it will help me with that too. Java is all about OOP isn't it?

So Clenard, you started to learn Javascript and that? Is it worth the time to get into Javascript and DOM and all that? I like the fact that PHP is server-side, so it don't really matter what browser is being used and with which settings... I do my form validation with PHP, and I'm quite happy with it, so is it worth me learning Javascript and DOM? What else are it's advantages?

Any help is much appriciated. Thanks for all the replies so far. Very helpful
James

It's really up to how far into JavaScript you want to get... in short, yes, learn all you can about the DOM.

Lynda.com has a great JavaScript Video Tutorial you can check out. It's about 8 Hours long or so, but it's definately worth it! The Monthly Fee for Lynda is only $25.00 and might well be worth it if you go through the JS tutorial... then you can also check out other stuff they got for a Full Month.

As for the Zend Framework -- here's some good links.

http://www.zend.com/collaboration/fr...k-overview.php

http://oetrends.com/news.php?action=...cord&idnum=483

http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2005/...php-framework/

http://andigutmans.blogspot.com/2005...o-long-so.html

That should be enough info on the Framework

[JakeJeck]

Once you learn .net - especially .net 2.0 you can develop apps in 1/2 to 1/3 of the time it would take to develop PHP apps.

In 2.0 you can create a fully sortable pageable list of data, create a form with textboxes, dropdown lists, radio buttons, and do database inserts and also select a record from the list and have all values from the database set in the form (proper dropdown, radio button, etc.), update the data and submit the form to update the database - all without writing a single line of code.

Once you learn the basics you can create a fully functional view, add, edit, and delete page in 15 minutes or less.

[firepages]

Once you learn the basics you can create a fully functional view, add, edit, and delete page in 15 minutes or less.

takes me far less time, though of course I did spend many hours in the first place creating my library, difference is (to me) that I can add functionality to my library today, or tomorrow, I don't have to wait for V3 or whatever.

And that really is the crux of the matter for me , I am all for an easy life but I want control of it.

[bonefry]

Sorry for bringing this thread up again, but a lot of people are trying to answer this question: So, what language shoud I learn, what platform should I choose ?
Some of them are afraid of .NET taking over, as is the case with this thread, so a little bashing I think its OK.

.NET is definetly the strongest player at the moment. .NET 2.0 is just released, and it is a very, very solid product, probably the best piece of software Microsoft has ever produced.

Yes, M. Johansson, but you know what the problem with .NET is ? The world wide web does not rely on .NET to grow and evolve.
You also don't need Windows to run web aplications.
And I am not the only one to have noticed this.

Of course, .NET is not Windows-only. If we keep our fingers crossed Mono will succeed because all these things will happen: nobody will notice Mono extensions being introduces in Gnome/Evolution, everybody will forget those ECMA standards do not cover the whole platform, everybody will keep thinking those ECMA standards are indeed "royalty-free" making MONO legal as an open-source project, informed Linux zealots will not throw stones at Miguel because everyone loves Miguel, and Microsoft will change its ways of acting:
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513-5457879.html
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1829797,00.asp

We all know who Microsoft is. Microsoft is a winner. But not by quality of it's products, but by marketing. Well ... if you do believe all that BS from the faimos Get The Facts Campaign, you do have a problem. They are betting all their reports on TCOs, but problem is the TCO cannot be really determined on paper, especially if one applies the Windows ways to *NIX

"Yes, but we will be in the same boat with the winners"
Really ? How long will it take Microsoft to come after *your* business ?
Just an example: http://www.pcworldmalta.com/specials/mslinux/
(I have friends that worked for GeCAD Software)
We also know Microsoft is not about operating systems anymore. It's far reaching hand is ... well ... reaching everybody:
http://www.microsoft.com/office/acco...o/default.mspx

Think again, nobody can beat the open-source model.
Start-up price equal to zero plus, fast bug fixes and modularity, thus improved security, plus ...
BIG companies (all Microsoft's direct competition actually) see in open-source/open standards a way to dethrone M$'s monopoly. Examples include IBM, BEA, Oracle, JBoss, Sun, Novell, Adobe.
And well, with all Microsoft's reports, Linux is still winning ground, Apache still has aprox. 70% of the web-servers arena, Java is still number 1 on the TIOBE languages popularity index (doing quite well actually), Java still has more jobs available, Java is still muti-platform, big companies still prefer Java if only to avoid platform lock-in, and aparently Swing is the dominant GUI toolkit (over WinForms too), and OpenOffice is actively eating from the big Microsoft Office pie.

In case you are wondering why I display Java on the same level as open-source, well, Sun did cleared the Java 5 license so full open-source implementations of Java are legal so projects like Harmony are possible, Sun does intend to release its whole software stack under open-source, and GNU Classpath does have 95% coverage.
And Java developers did embraced open-source.

Microsoft, is aware of this, and will try to lock us all under it's commercial standards:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1894039,00.asp

But I will say "No thank you". I want my business independant of Microsoft. I want to play by my own rules, and the world wide web currently does not need Microsoft.
Companies are in software development for the money, no doubt about it ... but if that means having a partner that unethical as Microsoft without having a choice, I will simply say "f*ck this, I'm changing my career".

For a technical comparisson, on the other hand, ASP.NET is a wonderfull framework, but let's be honest here ... it was designed for VB developers for a quick migration path. It was also designed for a quick migration path between WebForms / WinForms / Avalon.
And although productive, no doubt about it, it's model is sometimes *not* the best tool for the job. Just look at all the beauty in Ruby on Rails, or compare Tapestry with ASP.NET.
Do we have the freedom to choose another framework ? No, because Microsoft does not promote choice, and the whole ecosystem around .NET is made of programmers who accept Microsoft's path. It is one of the best selling points Microsoft has, afterall.

Java and PHP are allready 10 years old.
Can we trust our future with .NET ? Will it be here for the next 10 year ?
If you ask any VB 6.0 programmer that can think by himself, the answer is no.
VB 6.0 was a wonderful product with a huge succes, and really, no, VB.NET is not an evolution to VB 6.0.
And everyone knows there is one thing nobody escapes from:
Microsoft License 6

To come back on M. Johansson statement ... yes .NET 2.0 is trully a remarcable product, but what does it bring new ? Generics ? Maybe a good feature, but we don't need it that badly. Partial classes ? Only to help Visual Studio. Anonymous methods and Iterators ? For productivity maybe, but not realy needed.
On ASP.NET 2.0 then. Those login controls look awesome, problem is the company I work for (which do have a .NET team) have been having those kind of controls for quite some time, developed in-house of course.
Master Pages ? I really don't know why this feature wasn't there allready.
Localizaton ? Something that can be built in-house.
64-bits ? Again, Microsoft is the last to cross the finish line.

The list can go on and on ... why do we need .NET 2.0 ? Because Microsoft says so, and managers reading brochures with the latest from Microsoft are buying it.

[Takitei]

My god, what a post. Longest post I've ever seen. I agree with you bonefry.

[M. Johansson]

Yes, M. Johansson, but you know what the problem with .NET is ? The world wide web does not rely on .NET to grow and evolve.
You also don't need Windows to run web aplications.
And I am not the only one to have noticed this.

Of course, .NET is not Windows-only. If we keep our fingers crossed Mono will succeed because all these things will happen: nobody will notice Mono extensions being introduces in Gnome/Evolution, everybody will forget those ECMA standards do not cover the whole platform, everybody will keep thinking those ECMA standards are indeed "royalty-free" making MONO legal as an open-source project, informed Linux zealots will not throw stones at Miguel because everyone loves Miguel, and Microsoft will change its ways of acting:
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513-5457879.html
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1829797,00.asp

Indeed.

Mono is getting a much larger following than I expected. I truly hope that Microsoft realizes that .NET has a much longer product life than Windows has, and starts decoupling it from Windows, eventually.

We all know who Microsoft is. Microsoft is a winner. But not by quality of it's products, but by marketing. Well ... if you do believe all that BS from the faimos Get The Facts Campaign, you do have a problem. They are betting all their reports on TCOs, but problem is the TCO cannot be really determined on paper, especially if one applies the Windows ways to *NIX

First: The Get The Facts campaign is pretty silly, I agree. But then again, quite a bit of their opponents are pretty silly, too. I try to stay out of that part of the debate.

But I strongly disagree that Microsoft wins through marketing. The marketing from Microsoft is total crap! It has pretty much always been. I don't think their marketing department has ever won a single award. I think their reason for their success is that they offer a complete system for everything, making it so easy to implement. Their packaging, if you will. Open Source generally works very well, often better than Microsoft products, but they are generally a cobweb when it comes to interoperability. PHP, for instance, requires 10+ applications to work together to reach the same functionality as ASP.NET 2.0. .NET is a complete system, IDE, Sql Server, Web server, programming framework, and it all works pretty well together (I intentionally exclude Source Safe here, because it's the biggest embarrasment ever), and the documentation is in one place.

Think again, nobody can beat the open-source model.
Microsoft sure is at least at par with Java and PHP.
Start-up price equal to zero plus, fast bug fixes and modularity, thus improved security, plus ...
BIG companies (all Microsoft's direct competition actually) see in open-source/open standards a way to dethrone M$'s monopoly. Examples include IBM, BEA, Oracle, JBoss, Sun, Novell, Adobe.
And well, with all Microsoft's reports, Linux is still winning ground, Apache still has aprox. 70% of the web-servers arena, Java is still number 1 on the TIOBE languages popularity index (doing quite well actually), Java still has more jobs available, Java is still muti-platform, big companies still prefer Java if only to avoid platform lock-in, and aparently Swing is the dominant GUI toolkit (over WinForms too), and OpenOffice is actively eating from the big Microsoft Office pie.

As this paragraph contains the unholy three, severe absolutism in the first sentence, the abbriveation "M$" and links to the register, I was hesistant to comment on it, but here goes.

1. Java is a VERY strong competitor to .NET, and will continue to be for years to come, you'll hear no argument from me or anybody sane on that point. It's very nice that they are keeping eachother on their toes. Java BADLY needed some competition.

2. OpenOffice is bordeline off-topic, but I'll bite, because I'm feeling fiesty. No offence, OpenOffice, while nice, is an unneccessary product with a stupid strategy that will not have a really long lifespan. It basically copies Microsoft Office and makes it free, instead of making an innovative new product. If it wasn't free, it woulnd't hold a candle against office. Even Microsoft realized that the interface of Office (and much in general) totally sucks with it, and is revamping the whole GUI for the next version.

In case you are wondering why I display Java on the same level as open-source, well, Sun did cleared the Java 5 license so full open-source implementations of Java are legal so projects like Harmony are possible, Sun does intend to release its whole software stack under open-source, and GNU Classpath does have 95% coverage.
And Java developers did embraced open-source.

Microsoft, is aware of this, and will try to lock us all under it's commercial standards:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1894039,00.asp

Microsoft is coming around with Open Source. Eventually, they will get it, at least to a reasonable degree. They are opening up more and more, but it's going slow.

For a technical comparisson, on the other hand, ASP.NET is a wonderfull framework, but let's be honest here ... it was designed for VB developers for a quick migration path.

I strongly disagree on that point. .NET is extremely different from VB. Not even VB.NET retains many similarities, except the syntax.

It was also designed for a quick migration path between WebForms / WinForms / Avalon.
And although productive, no doubt about it, it's model is sometimes *not* the best tool for the job. Just look at all the beauty in Ruby on Rails, or compare Tapestry with ASP.NET.

Not familiar with Tapestry or Rails, but I'm sure they are very nice. I'm very comfortable with the ASP.NETmodel, though, especially the 2.0 version.

Do we have the freedom to choose another framework ? No, because Microsoft does not promote choice, and the whole ecosystem around .NET is made of programmers who accept Microsoft's path.

Sorry, but that is total and utter bull.

You can heavily modify almost the entire ASP.NET Framework to fit your needs, or replace it altogether. You do not have to use Microsoft SQL Server, IIS or any of the ASP.NET classes to develop a web application with .NET. All of them can be replaced with ease.

Java and PHP are allready 10 years old.
Can we trust our future with .NET ? Will it be here for the next 10 year ?
If you ask any VB 6.0 programmer that can think by himself, the answer is no.
VB 6.0 was a wonderful product with a huge succes, and really, no, VB.NET is not an evolution to VB 6.0.
And everyone knows there is one thing nobody escapes from:
Microsoft License 6

That PHP is 10 years old is REALLY pushing it, but ok. But yeah, if it for some reason is extremely important to you to use the same product for 10+ years, then Microsoft products aren't for you. They tend to replace stuff pretty agressively.

That said, VB.old has existed since 1991, giving it a lifespan of 14 years so far, and it will probably be supported for at least a year or two more. It has now been replaced with a product that offers a (reasonably) easy migration path.

To come back on M. Johansson statement ... yes .NET 2.0 is trully a remarcable product, but what does it bring new ? Generics ? Maybe a good feature, but we don't need it that badly. Partial classes ? Only to help Visual Studio. Anonymous methods and Iterators ? For productivity maybe, but not realy needed.
On ASP.NET 2.0 then. Those login controls look awesome, problem is the company I work for (which do have a .NET team) have been having those kind of controls for quite some time, developed in-house of course.
Master Pages ? I really don't know why this feature wasn't there allready.
Localizaton ? Something that can be built in-house.
64-bits ? Again, Microsoft is the last to cross the finish line.

The list can go on and on ... why do we need .NET 2.0 ? Because Microsoft says so, and managers reading brochures with the latest from Microsoft are buying it.

64-bits. Yeup, that's pretty late of them. Then again, .NET performance is better than Java anyway (at least according to MiddleWare) so it's not too bad.

Other than that, your paragraph above is just a ridiculous line of argumentation. Nobody NEEDS a programming framework. You could use bloody assember using emacs and write everything in-house, and it would work awesomely and be perfecly tailored to your needs. It's just sometimes cheaper to use pre-built things and tools.

[paulyG]

What I want to know is, is PHP worth my time in the long run? Is it a dying language? Does it have an important future in the web world?

I've been hearing stuff about Web 2.0 too... what's this about? Does PHP, CSS, MySQL (and the other bits and bobs I've been learning) fit into this picture?

I ask all this because I want to try and start up my own web design business, but want to make sure that all the time (and money spent on books and mags) learning PHP is worth my time overall?

Many previous posters have hinted at the different TCO (total cost of ownership). If you are in business you need to show a profit. Glib statements like "LAMP is free" is very handy during this argument, and is of course true. Its what attracted me first.

However, just look through this forum, just say, 18 hours worth of postings and you will find something priceless. Unlimited support, similar individuals to you offering to help you -- for free. You're not alone. All that is asked is that you be prepared to learn.

OK, you can get a warm glow from a radiator.

Well heres another reason why you should be using PHP. Its only made to do one thing. Websites. That was its reason to be, thats what drives it, thats what shapes its future. A lot of very clever people all over the globe use forums like this and its daughter forum, to voice their wants, unhappiness and desires for the language - because they want an easy life, they want PHP to make life easier, and they want it PDQ.

Things change very quickly on the internet, new ways of doing things, new ways of sharing, new ways of collaborating, new paradigms spring up.

I dont know exactly, but I feel that PHP being this open means it has the ability to be very agile - and if its not agile quick enough someone will share a workround to any particular problem.

[M. Johansson]

Well heres another reason why you should be using PHP. Its only made to do one thing. Websites. That was its reason to be, thats what drives it, thats what shapes its future. A lot of very clever people all over the globe use forums like this and its daughter forum, to voice their wants, unhappiness and desires for the language - because they want an easy life, they want PHP to make life easier, and they want it PDQ.

Things change very quickly on the internet, new ways of doing things, new ways of sharing, new ways of collaborating, new paradigms spring up.

Web sites is an extremely crappy way of delivering web applications. It's slow, hard to build, and bandwidth ineffective. HTML is dying as a delivery vehicle for web apps (even though fantastic technologies like AJAX have extended it's lifespan considerably), being replaced by Flash, and later, technolgies like Avalon and whatever equivalent Sun can come up with.

[paulyG]

@M Johansson
Cant say I agree with "Flash", if you actually meant Vector graphics, then I would nod...

@M Johansson
Is Ajax a technology? Isn't it the sending of a text file across the internet? Just like a... well just like a bit of a crappy webpage really

Anyhow, vector graphics (or SVG if you prefer), and the sending of text files across the internet and whatever else is on the horizon, one thing is for sure, PHP developers will be officially, or unofficially publishing bits of code that help each other do it.

They will generally be doing it without charge, some will do it for the fun of it.
Then some of the poor guys will feel obliged to come here and try and help other users....

Good luck!

[M. Johansson]

@M Johansson
Cant say I agree with "Flash", if you actually meant Vector graphics, then I would nod...

Flash is nowadays a vehicle for delivering rich web applications. It is WAY past vector graphics. Have you looked at Macromedia Flex, or it's Open-Source equivalent, Laszlo?

Anyhow, vector graphics (or SVG if you prefer), and the sending of text files across the internet and whatever else is on the horizon, one thing is for sure, PHP developers will be officially, or unofficially publishing bits of code that help each other do it.

They will generally be doing it without charge, some will do it for the fun of it.
Then some of the poor guys will feel obliged to come here and try and help other users....

Probably. My "web sites suck" rant was merely a response to your statement:

Well heres another reason why you should be using PHP. Its only made to do one thing. Websites.

[Mittineague]

so is it worth me learning Javascript and DOM? What else are it's advantages?

Advantages? Javascript is client-side.

[Takitei]

Advantages? Javascript is client-side.

Is it an advantage? Advantage is a relative concept. In my opinion, the JS client-side feature is an disadvantage because of the simple fact that you can just disable it in you browser and its gone!

[M. Johansson]

Is it an advantage? Advantage is a relative concept. In my opinion, the JS client-side feature is an disadvantage because of the simple fact that you can just disable it in you browser and its gone!

Javascript and PHP are two extremely different things and are used for different purposes. It's more like a hammer and a saw. You use them both to build a house, and you need both skills to work efficiently as a carpenter.

[JakeJeck]

Is it an advantage? Advantage is a relative concept. In my opinion, the JS client-side feature is an disadvantage because of the simple fact that you can just disable it in you browser and its gone!

That's like saying you shouldn't set up an e-commerce system using cookies because users can block them.

Why would users go out of their way to disable javascript when it will soon become a requirement to properly view all but the most basic sites? Plus you have to actively disable javascript in the browser which I bet 85% of the internet population doesn't even know how to do.

[Takitei]

JS has to be used for things that doesn't compromise the site security. You can use it to check simple things, open popups, but when you create something with JS, you should disable JS and test your page with it disabled, to make sure your site is secure.

[SMB20]

LOL;

Man, PHP+MySQL+Apache and all that OpenSource stuff have more future than Micro$oft .NET platform. Just... open Google and search 'php': 904.000.000 results, 'asp': 850.000.000.

Even Google says that! So, I would tell you, learn PHP a lot lot lot... learn SQL, learn a bit of JavaScript and start your business with that. You will remember this text that I am writing to you in a soon future.

There is more people developing in PHP than ASP. More people use MySQL than MSSQL, even PostgreSQL is better than MSSQL. So... dont be afraid. PHP will remain being the leader in web development, unless some 10 years old genius made other dev language.

Good luck!

Well said. PHP is by far more popular than ASP, same thing with MySQL (again like Takitei said, PostgreSQL is better).

One of the reasons why PHP is more popular is because Linux supports it and Linux is a free Operating System that has distrobutions for all computer types (servers, desktops, work places, laptops, etc.)

Stick with PHP and you'll be making both money and you'll make a future for yourself.

Regards
Josh

[Young Twig]

Well said. PHP is by far more popular than ASP, same thing with MySQL (again like Takitei said, PostgreSQL is better).

One of the reasons why PHP is more popular is because Linux supports it and Linux is a free Operating System that has distrobutions for all computer types (servers, desktops, work places, laptops, etc.)

Stick with PHP and you'll be making both money and you'll make a future for yourself.

Regards
Josh

Did you read bonefry's post?

Generally (and stereotypically), PHP is more popular in geeky cliques and small online sites. ASP.NET is more popular in professional circles. Sure, you can find more PHP jobs on Sitepoint, but looking for a local office job? Try .NET or Java.

[firepages]

PHP is more popular in geeky cliques and small online sites

yes tiny little geek sites like ... yahoo ,vodaphone, mcafee duetchebank..... we wont go on since it will get boring.

Plain fact is , if you are looking at a web-page then there is only a 25% chance it runs on MS, let alone .NET

In the office, yes its another matter altogether and you will be hard pushed to find PHP, PERL, Python etc , and offline it would be more of a `geek` market (most ISP's etc)

[hifigrafix]

I'm getting 2wice the gigs here in town when compared to the .asp developers :/


all-in-all it's really what you make of it. If you learn it correctly and implement it correctly - then it doesn't matter what language it is as long as you know how to use it.


I simply prefer php because I feel that every time I turn around It proves it's flexibility and potential.

[Takitei]

yes tiny little geek sites like ... yahoo ,vodaphone, mcafee duetchebank..... we wont go on since it will get boring.

You missed Google.

[Andrei P.]

Google runs PHP?!

[firepages]

Google is pretty much a Python house I think , google used PHP3 in the past in some of its subdomains but under the impression its mostly python now ?