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  1. #26
    SitePoint Wizard dreamscape's Avatar
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    why does something "enterprise level" need to be "extremely complex"? And why does OO programming need to be "complex"?

    Christ, you guys think a little too much like MS when it comes to software programming and design. God save us all.

  2. #27
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    Yeah, good point. I just finished an "enterprise level" project at my day job with people working on all kinds of J2EE stuff and Oracle databases and such (I did mostly the Web front-end but I did a little Java as well). And you know what? 98% of everything they needed could have been done easily with PHP/MySQL (or PostgreSQL or even Oracle anyway!). Just saying something is "enterprise level" doesn't mean it has to be some gigantic pile of OOP soup.

    Jared

  3. #28
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    @Doc:

    First of all, I can't imagine the new pieces not using OOP principles. OTOH, OOP is not the only way to do things and depending on what they are targeting, it may not play a huge factor. You have to ask yourself: how many enterprises are modeling their business processes with PHP compared to how many are using something rather like C++ and/or Java? Historically, business modelling is not a strength of PHP; still, for both cases, PHP can still play to its core strength -- content delivery. Zend has never positioned PHP as a full life-cycle solution and I'd be surprised to see them change their tune at this point.

    Anyways, I don't see how it really matters. This is exposure and any type of exposure is going to be an overall benefit to the community. The people who complain will continue to complain. The people who think it is useful stuff will buy-in; however, everyone will get to say how the likes of IBM and Oracle are taking PHP seriously.

  4. #29
    SitePoint Guru 33degrees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    It's really disturbing kids today are so quick to proclaim a platform's death. It's also unclear to me why all this blogs pop out of nowhere and then are used as references in other blogs (if that guy said it ... it must be true ... afterall ... he heard it from a friend).

    BTW, there isn't a single technical reason in that blog that prevent PHP from being used as a platform for "agile development".
    The gist of the post is not that PHP is dying, or that it isn't suitable for Agile Development, it's that some developers are leaving Java and looking elsewhere than PHP, and that some of those developers are into agile development but dislike PHP for reasons that don't neccesarily have to do with agile development itself.

    I think the point isn't that PHP is dying (because it certainly isn't), but that it's failing to attract the people who are leaving Java, some of whom are highly influential.

  5. #30
    SitePoint Guru 33degrees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamscape
    why does something "enterprise level" need to be "extremely complex"? And why does OO programming need to be "complex"?
    You've got it backwards; it's not OO that's complex, it's that the more complex things get, the more benefit there is to doing it OO; And it's not that something "enterprise level" has to be complex, but that complex projects are more common at the enterprise level.

  6. #31
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamscape
    why does something "enterprise level" need to be "extremely complex"? And why does OO programming need to be "complex"?
    Because a complex problem cannot always have a simple sollution.
    Quote Originally Posted by arborint
    What a crazy idea: people have opinions, they put those opinions one the web, these same people put links to each others opinions ... go figure ...
    guess I'm the enemy of free speech.

    Seriously now, just because people are free to speak their oppinions freely, I am also free to not tolerate things I don't like ... go figure ...
    And what I don't like is uninformed oppinions and FUDs.

    If you don't like it, you are free to reply ... then I'll reply back ... and that's what makes life interesting.

  7. #32
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 33degrees
    The gist of the post is not that PHP is dying
    Yeah, like nobody here thought about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by 33degrees
    or that it isn't suitable for Agile Development
    @Selkirk made that statement in his blog
    Quote Originally Posted by 33degrees
    it's that some developers are leaving Java and looking elsewhere than PHP
    *some* is a good term. Hell will freeze over, and when that will hapen, Java programmers will move to .NET, simply because LAMP isn't ready. It's Oct 2005 and PHP still lacks namespaces
    Quote Originally Posted by 33degrees
    I think the point isn't that PHP is dying (because it certainly isn't), but that it's failing to attract the people who are leaving Java, some of whom are highly influential.
    No one is dying of course. Have I said that ?
    But we are pushing it a little ... I would like to see clear proof of people migrating from Java to PHP, and from PHP to Ruby. And who are those "highly influential" programmers ?
    Just because 1/3 programmers in that Ruby report said they came from Java and 2/3 said they came from PHP ... doesn't mean they totaly migrated to Ruby ... and I still can't find any Ruby jobs.

  8. #33
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    @bonefry: are you being paid to astroturf in a PHP forum? LAMP isn't ready? Puh-lease.

  9. #34
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayboots
    @bonefry: are you being paid to astroturf in a PHP forum? LAMP isn't ready? Puh-lease.
    no, I do it for free.

  10. #35
    SitePoint Guru 33degrees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    @Selkirk made that statement in his blog
    Actually, what he wrote was: "I can't speak for anyone else, but I have some ideas about why PHP might not appeal to the agile method and java is too complicated folk:"

    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    But we are pushing it a little ... I would like to see clear proof of people migrating from Java to PHP, and from PHP to Ruby. And who are those "highly influential" programmers ?
    The post mentions Martin Fowler, who wrote Patterns of Enterprise Application Architecture (maybe you've heard of it?) and Dave Thomas, who wrote the Pragmatic Programmer, both of whom are amongst the authors of the Agile Manifesto. And then there's Bruce Perrens, one of the founders of the Open Source Initiative, and Bruce Tate, David Geary and Stuart Halloway, all of whom have written influential books on Java. They've all publically thrown their weight behind ruby (and rails), and you can be sure there are a lot of other people who have paid attention.

  11. #36
    SitePoint Guru BerislavLopac's Avatar
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    Rails must seem like heaven to people used to Java and other static languages like C#: you create your database table, create a class, write scaffold :tablename and pronto -- a CRUD Website is here! Maaaaaaaagic!

  12. #37
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 33degrees
    The post mentions Martin Fowler, who wrote Patterns of Enterprise Application Architecture (maybe you've heard of it?) and Dave Thomas, who wrote the Pragmatic Programmer, both of whom are amongst the authors of the Agile Manifesto. And then there's Bruce Perrens, one of the founders of the Open Source Initiative, and Bruce Tate, David Geary and Stuart Halloway, all of whom have written influential books on Java. They've all publically thrown their weight behind ruby (and rails), and you can be sure there are a lot of other people who have paid attention.
    By migration to Ruby, I understand giving up on the primary platform in favor of Ruby.

    It's nice to see Martin Fowler writting articles about how nice the Ruby community is, or about Ruby being easier that XSLT, or about Rake ... but I fail to see how Martin Fowler migrated from Java.
    He has put his weight behind Ruby, yes, but I say it really doesn't have a favorite:
    http://www.thoughtworks.com/ruby.html
    http://www.thoughtworks.com/j2ee.html
    http://www.thoughtworks.com/dot-net.html

    I don't know about the other guys you mentioned.

    I don't want you guys to get me wrong.
    In the last month I began to really love RUBY. And with PHP I began earning my existence.And I love OSS better than most folks in SitePoint.com.
    All I am saying is let's not get over excited about blogs (LoudThinking actually damages Ruby IMHO), press-releases, and stuff.

    So, Zend wants to release a framework ? I say it will be crap. All commercial frameworks that are succesfull (ASP.NET, JSP/JSF) are dependant on tools and I think that's what Zend is trying ... other than generating a lot of hype again.

  13. #38
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    Some random thoughts.

    Re Zend's announcement;

    We also think that it's very important this framework embody the "extreme simplicity" mindset that PHP itself exemplifies. We want to deliver a framework that helps solve developer problems and speeds development; not one that's overly complex and heavyweight.
    To me I read that simply as "PHP != Java" - they're trying to set expectations / disclaimers for "enterprises" expecting Java-style community processes, specifications and interface. In this thread there's a strong wiff of Rails so we're interpreting that remark from a different context.

    Perhaps "simplicity" does mean functions but I'd be willing to bet otherwise, mainly because PHP5 has interfaces and their implementation IMO was largely for the purpose of IDEs. Put another way PHP5's interfaces make little sense in the context of a dynamic language, especially one where many users have their scripts parsed on every request.

    Otherwise, on a much more off-topic point, heard a remark recently on the radio (and I wish I remember who said it). Went something like;

    After oil, the most valuable resource on the planet is human attention.
    Part of the reason I needed to go offline (aside from lack of time, life to live etc.) is I've become tired of the "buzz" happening online. Not wanting to get into negative rants but when I read this and watched online reactions to it, made me realise how much things like blogs act as unquestioning "buzz magnifiers" and are exploitable as such. When it's a good technology involved, perhaps that's not a bad thing but when it's "vaporware" or perhaps, worse still, the latest "enterprise best practice" (btw we offer consulting) there's little difference between this and selling application servers via the golf course.

    Personally what I've come to value in a technology is maturity rather than anything else, perhaps due to past goose chases with PHP have taught me. By maturity I don't mean perfection - in fact the opposite. Have a kind of a rule these days not to touch something until I can find a few "It sucks" type of analysis via Google. And PHP is doing pretty well . Perl, from which PHP stole the buzz, also fares well.

    Perverse as that may seem, it's a good indication of maturity - warts have been identified and so working with that technology becomes predictable (even if it's predictably bad). With a predictable technology you have a better chance of meeting the expectations of those who are employing you (and a better chance of working acceptable hours per day).

    Rails is one current buzz right now. It's great to hear about massive reductions in development effort but to be predictable, I personally want to hear about when it sucked - when extra effort was required for workarounds, bug hunts or otherwise.

    David, as well as being a very talented developer, is also a master of buzz control and is in the right place at the right time, offering something that fits well to the tastes of Java developers looking for better ways.

    In parallel there's also Thoughtworks buzzing Ruby and Rails. While I have great respect for Martin Fowler, from reading POEAA and Refactoriing, outside of Microsoft and Sun, Thoughtworks seems to be the most significant group pushing "enterprise best practice" right now and a significant degree of "development buzz" going on on blogs sems to be traceable back to Thoughtworks. So personally I want to ask questions about their agenda.

    Hani over at Bile Blog dared go for the throat in his usual offensive style - it's extreme as usual and to a degree entertaining so long as you're not on the receiving end (one day he'll point his sights at PHP, especially now IBM is backing it). I don't agree with his points of view (and lack the facts to form a worthwhile opinion anyway) but think he is right to challenge and question.

    To that extent, this was a very valid point.

    It's also unclear to me why all this blogs pop out of nowhere and then are used as references in other blogs (if that guy said it ... it must be true ... afterall ... he heard it from a friend).
    In the end agenda's boil down to people trying to make a living so fair enough - witchhunts also not required.

    PHP stands as a technology in it's own right, irrespective to how it compares with anything else - it's reached "predictable" which is an achievement in itself. I guess it's time in the "focus of attention" is passing on but that's probably a good thing. Rails seems to be doing to PHP what PHP did to Perl so what goes around comes around.

    And it's hypocritical of me to make these sort of remarks, having "buzzed" PHP in the past, at times where it wasn't predictable, but you live and learn.

  14. #39
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    Think Opens Lampshade PHP Framework

    Hi,

    Thought this might be of interest...

    http://www.thinkcomputer.com/corpora...ses.html?id=24

    Aaron

  15. #40
    SitePoint Wizard
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    Quote Originally Posted by thinkcomp
    Thought this might be of interest...
    Yet Another PHP Framework, but one you have to register to use non-commercially -- I'd guess the interest here would be between zero and none.
    Christopher

  16. #41
    eschew sesquipedalians silver trophy sweatje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arborint
    Yet Another PHP Framework, but one you have to register to use non-commercially -- I'd guess the interest here would be between zero and none.
    Christopher, I think you are wrong here. Interest would be between zero and a large negative interest based on the fact that is is proprietary and not licensed under an accepted open source license
    Jason Sweat ZCE - jsweat_php@yahoo.com
    Book: PHP Patterns
    Good Stuff: SimpleTest PHPUnit FireFox ADOdb YUI
    Detestable (adjective): software that isn't testable.

  17. #42
    simple tester McGruff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selkirk
    I wonder if "extreme simplicity" is a code word for no objects?
    In light of Zend's idea of what an "expert level" programming certificate should be, I don't hold out much hope for something usable (by which I mean fully tested OOP). I'll be very glad to be proved wrong though.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by McGruff
    In light of Zend's idea of what an "expert level" programming certificate should be, I don't hold out much hope for something usable (by which I mean fully tested OOP). I'll be very glad to be proved wrong though.
    With all respect, if your definition of "usable" is strictly "fully tested OOP" I wonder if you are ever satisfied by anything at all. I am certainly not knocking agile methods but development rigour did not begin with XP methodologies and many large-scale and successful projects will continue to use procedural based paradigms. I don't understand all the useless bashing that happens on this forum.

  19. #44
    SitePoint Wizard
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweatje
    Christopher, I think you are wrong here. Interest would be between zero and a large negative interest based on the fact that is is proprietary and not licensed under an accepted open source license
    You are obviously right, I stand corrected.
    Christopher

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayboots
    With all respect, if your definition of "usable" is strictly "fully tested OOP" I wonder if you are ever satisfied by anything at all. I am certainly not knocking agile methods but development rigour did not begin with XP methodologies and many large-scale and successful projects will continue to use procedural based paradigms. I don't understand all the useless bashing that happens on this forum.
    OK ... So let's get down to brass tacks here. Here are some scenarios:

    - Zend implements a framework designed by someone who thinks large scale and successful projects are best done procedurally in PHP. This might be called the "Use PHP as PHP School"

    - Zend implements a framework designed by someone in the OO style of PEAR or even PEAR based. This might be called the "Use OO in the PHP Style School"

    - Zend implements a framework design by someone who thinks OO and Agile Design are the best way. This might be called the "Pure OO in PHP School"

    Which one do you want?
    Which one would best serve the needs of current PHP developers?
    Which one would be the best for the future of PHP?
    Christopher

  21. #46
    simple tester McGruff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayboots
    I don't understand all the useless bashing that happens on this forum.
    It would be nice if you had waited until I bashed something before complaining. These forums have been getting far too tetchy of late.

    The Zend certificate isn't worthless by any means but it's hardly fair to promote it as an expert level qualification - it's more high-school level.

    Code without tests is virtually useless if you're used to working that way. You're scared to make any changes because there is no way to properly verify them. You have a similar problem each time you install. You're never quite sure what the classes are supposed to do in the first place - or if they really do what they're supposed to. If there's a better way to work I don't know it. If there isn't, there's no point wasting your time with second best practices.

  22. #47
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    The Zend certificate isn't worthless by any means but it's hardly fair to promote it as an expert level qualification - it's more high-school level.
    I disagree... The certification isn't worth the paper it's written on. I'm going to get hammered for making that comment but that's my thoughts on it, once you compare it against the certification that Sun offers.

    High school level? Try pre-school level, maybe that is closer to it. It's laughable, if it weren't so lacking...

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by McGruff
    It would be nice if you had waited until I bashed something before complaining. These forums have been getting far too tetchy of late.
    It is all the bashing that is doing it. I was responding to what you wrote: "In light of Zend's idea of what an 'expert level' programming certificate should be, I don't hold out much hope for something usable" -- that is a bash. Sure, I don't think too much of the certification process -- but that's because I don't think much of corporate certification to begin with. OTOH, I don't see how that can be used as a reason to dismiss something unrelated that has not even seen the light of day yet.

    Everyone knows you have to test code and it has been known for a lot longer than OOP has been around. So what? I'm reacting to the idea that sight-unseen, it is assumed that Zend is too stupid to understand this notion or to test code.

    @arborint: I don't really care what they do nor do I "want" any particular style. I have my own tools that suit me just fine. If they introduce something compelling and that will actually help me manage my developments then I will surely consider it but I don't think there is "one true-way" to go about it and I am certainly going to reserve judgement until after I've had a chance to evaluate it.

    There is enough hot air in here for a balloon race.

  24. #49
    SitePoint Wizard
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    Executive summary of the current state of PHP development:
    Quote Originally Posted by jayboots
    I have my own tools that suit me just fine.
    Christopher

  25. #50
    simple tester McGruff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayboots
    There is enough hot air in here for a balloon race.
    You're free to leave any time.


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