Are lyrics web sites legal?

[HakonHoy]

Does anyone have a answer for that?

Web sites like http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/ then? That provides people with guitar tabs, are they realy legal?

Is it just because they post a message like "for educational purposes" on their web site?

Please help me out with this one

[Egor]

If the material doesn't belong to the site, they've should have the copyright owner's permission.

[Young Twig]

I know of one site (christianguitar.org) that removes all lyrics from their tabs to avoid legal/copyright issues.

[HakonHoy]

so lyrics are illegal? but tabs are legal to post to your web site?

[Young Twig]

I have no idea.

[conradical]

so lyrics are illegal? but tabs are legal to post to your web site?

I would imagine. Most tabs are written by the poster not the musician well as the lyrics are copy protected as they are not "made up" by somebody but by the artist itself. Thats why sheet music costs money because it is THE work of the artist.

[peach]

yes they are illegal.

Some of the big lyrics sites have been sued too.
There is this really big lyrics company that has rights of lyrics that are used by some famous artists and they had a large lawsuit once, forcing several lyrics sites to remove their lyrics from their site.

[Lira]

What puzzles me though is why an artist would sue a lyrics-site, if it brings the musician extra attention? It's not like, once you read the lyrics, you won't buy the record. That's almost free publicity.

I would imagine. Most tabs are written by the poster not the musician.

But isn't it copied from the musician's work?

[Shyflower]

What puzzles me though is why an artist would sue a lyrics-site, if it brings the musician extra attention? It's not like, once you read the lyrics, you won't buy the record. That's almost free publicity.

But isn't it copied from the musician's work?

Lyrics are poetry and poetry is intellectual property. If a site is using yours and making money from it, shouldn't you have a share in the proceeds?

[Lira]

Lyrics are poetry and poetry is intellectual property. If a site is using yours and making money from it, shouldn't you have a share in the proceeds?

But most lyrics sites (including fan sites) distribute them freely, it's not like they're making money from it or anything. Fan sites, specially, do it solely because they like the artist.

[Katasdf]

www.lyrics.com
www.azlyrics.com

Both large lyric sites, and haven't been shut down?

[Shyflower]

But most lyrics sites (including fan sites) distribute them freely, it's not like they're making money from it or anything. Fan sites, specially, do it solely because they like the artist.

Do they have affiliate links and advertisements? If they do, then they are making money.

Just a couple of other points. If you have a "free bread stand" and someone else has a bakery across the street, where do you think I might get my bread?

You might think its a stupid analogy, but these lyric sites are literally taking the bread out of the mouths of the people who worked (yes it is work) to create them.

Theft is theft and stealing someone else's livelyhood and giving it away is hardly something a real fan would do. Real fans support their idols by buying their albums and attending their concerts.

[shadowbox]

But most lyrics sites (including fan sites) distribute them freely, it's not like they're making money from it or anything. Fan sites, specially, do it solely because they like the artist.

What, so if I make mp3's of my favourite artist and give them away for free on a web site, that's okay is it - after all, I'm not making any money from it? By me giving these songs for free, people don't need to buy the artist's album and hence they lose money.

Traditionally, if people wanted the song lyrics, they would have to purchase them via the sheet music - and in turn, the artist would receive a cut of this via their publishing deal.

[HakonHoy]

So whats the conclusion on this?

Lyrics are illegal to publish, while tabs are legal?

[samsm]

While I respect the concept that artists own the lyrics they right, the relationship between lyrics and profits is not like that of many other things.

It's not like someone arrives at a lyrics page, reads the words to "Baby got back" and decides that they no longer need to buy that song as they already know the words.

What actually happens is that someone goes to Google with a phrase from a song looking for a title and artist so that they can buy the album. I truly believe that lyrics sites as a whole have generated sales for the music industry. It's speculation on my part, but is there anything to suggest the contrary?

I doubt these sites put a dent in official lyrics book sales either. No one is saying to themselves, "well, I would buy this Bob Dylan lyrics coffee table book, but I can get the same lyrics on this pop-up ridden website".

These copyright laws are written to protect interests. In this case I question the point. I suspect artists, and more so their management, are standing behind their rights academically without fully considering how to best to serve their customers and promote their products. It's similar in some ways to the author's guild lawsuit against Google. You have to ask if the people who object are really looking at the big picture.

[Lira]

^^^^^^ +1

What, so if I make mp3's of my favourite artist and give them away for free on a web site, that's okay is it - after all, I'm not making any money from it? By me giving these songs for free, people don't need to buy the artist's album and hence they lose money.

Of course it wouldn't be okay, if anything, it would be like reading the specs of a product, or having an add-on. I find the idea of someone not buying a record because (s)he's read the lyrics, well, quite puzzling.

Traditionally, if people wanted the song lyrics, they would have to purchase them via the sheet music - and in turn, the artist would receive a cut of this via their publishing deal.

I guess we just had a cultural shock then - here, the only way people would get the lyrics, would be buying magazines. Or listening to the song

Do they have affiliate links and advertisements? If they do, then they are making money.

Fair enough, but like I said, only lyrics depots have those things. As far as I've seen from the list of Björk's fan sites, no affiliate links or adverts were involved.

Just a couple of other points. If you have a "free bread stand" and someone else has a bakery across the street, where do you think I might get my bread?

If anything, distributing lyrics would be like having a "free extra cheese stand" in front of a pizza parlor. Pizza comes with cheese on its own, so you'd only get more cheese if you wanted more. If the pizza came with more cheese anyway, the stand would be pointless, and if you distributed the cheese before people could buy the pizza, it would be some good marketing, similar to that of Sitepoint's books (and its sample chapters).

Don't get me wrong, before registering here, music forums were the places I used to hang out the most (when on-line, that is). I'm an amateur musician myself. However, I'm pretty aware of the fact that more I (over-)protect my work, the less visibility I'm bound to have.

Personally, if it weren't for mp3s, for example, I wouldn't have bought half of the records I've got. And it's pretty expensive to import this sort of stuff around here.

Real fans support their idols by buying their albums and attending their concerts.

Quoted for truth.

[Shyflower]

If anything, distributing lyrics would be like having a "free extra cheese stand" in front of a pizza parlor. Pizza comes with cheese on its own, so you'd only get more cheese if you wanted more. If the pizza came with more cheese anyway, the stand would be pointless, and if you distributed the cheese before people could buy the pizza, it would be some good marketing, similar to that of Sitepoint's books (and its sample chapters).

The purpose of Site Point's promotion of sample chapters is to result in eventual sale of the books. I do imagine that they either own the copyrights to the sample chapters or have an agreement with the copyright owner before publication.
Your analogy doesn't cut the mustard with me. Comparing lyrics to cheese on pizza is apples and oranges. The lyrics to a song aren't topping. They are an integral part of the whole composition, and they are the property of the person who wrote them. That's the law and "wanting" it to be otherwise doesn't make it so.

It's the owner's right to permit or deny publication of their property. Even if, as samsm speculates, " lyrics sites as a whole have generated sales for the music industry," it is still the owner's right to choose how, who, and where his work is promoted.

If these "fans" were really sincere in wanting to promote their favorites' works, it seems to me they would at least do the the owners the courtesy of writing for and receiving permission as the law demands.

[samsm]

Lyrics may be important to a track, but the instrumental portion of the track is also important. Further, the performance of the lyrics is also an important aspect of the composition of a track. Lyrics are just one portion of a composition and I think it is fair to say that they generally don't fly without the rest of the work.

Thinking along these lines, I wonder if lyric use on these sites couldn't be classified as fair use. They are only a portion of the overall composition and I haven't heard any convincing suggestions that these sites are negatively affecting artists in some way. Sounds like a decent Supreme Court case some day.

[aspen]

Samsm is right. Technically Lyric sites are infringing on copyright, but they are tolerated because they are seen by many as beneficial to the artist and they do not hurt CD sales.

Likewise Guitar tabs are copyright infringement, they're derivative works of the actual copyrighted music and the right to make a derivative work is one of the things that copyright protects. However the powers that be realize that music junkie fans who like to play the band's music themselves are their best customers and they do not want to alienate them. Its not like someone who was going to go see Dave Matthews Band in concert is going to change their mind because they're buddy's garage band got some tabs and can play the songs now.

Likewise George Lucas could at any time shut down any of the thousands of StarWars fan sites out there, including big ones like TheForce.net, because he realizes that the embracing the fan community contributes to the success of StarWars.

So, yes, you're breaking copyright when you publish lyrics. However the potential of you being sued is extremely low. In all likelihood if anyone did have a problem they'd send you a cease & desist letter long before suing you.

[HakonHoy]

So if I start a web site like http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/ , and post guitar tabs, and let users post their tabs, then it would be legal?

[samsm]

So if I start a web site like http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/ , and post guitar tabs, and let users post their tabs, then it would be legal?

Ha! I see that every time you've contributed to this thread you are seeking that simple approval or disapproval.

Well, the simple answer is "no".

if you want the more nuanced answer, go back and read all these posts, I think they give you a reasonable distribution of opinions on the topic.

Bonus simple answer: none of us have a clue what is legal and what isn't in Norway.

[HakonHoy]

But whats legal or not in Norway, does not mather, as the web site will be in English and hosted just outside London. I have read all the posts.. But what that tells me is that I can look at if its legal or not in many ways, and views. Something is legal, and something is not.

[frox]

HakonHoy, the answer has already been given.

It's illegal, but you can probably rely on some tolerance.

Something is legal, and something is not.

If only it was so simple ... lawyers would be out of business :-)

[joazito]

This is from a thread on "Are tablature web sites legal?" , but the same principles apply:

Quote:
§ 106. Exclusive rights in copyrighted works36

Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:

(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;

(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;

(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;

(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly;

(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and

(6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the copyrighted work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission.


Quote:
A “derivative work” is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications, which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a “derivative work”


http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html

Tablature is a derivative work. The copyright holder has the exclusive right to produce derivative works. As a matter of law, publishing tablature without copyright owner's consent is infringement.

In some cases, as others have pointed out, the fair use doctrine might apply, but other than that, the reason that the copyright holders are not enforcing their rights is that they have bigger fish to fry, or simply don't care.

I think you just need to replace "tablature" with "lyrics".

[peach]

yes they are illegal.

Some of the big lyrics sites have been sued too.
There is this really big lyrics company that has rights of lyrics that are used by some famous artists and they had a large lawsuit once, forcing several lyrics sites to remove their lyrics from their site.

This thread gives the impression that publishing song lyrics is tolerated by their respective owners, but thats not always the case, you are making money off their property, without compensating them, so there is definitively a conflict.

The lawsuit I mentioned it the above post was against azlyrcs, probably the most popular lyrics website currently online.

United States Copyright Law provides the copyright owner and/or their representative with the exclusive right to create, reproduce and distribute derivative works based on copyrighted material. Unless you have received permission from the copyright owner or their representative to distribute the lyrics from their songs, you are in violation of the law.

May 2003 - Azlyrics.com Team was contacted by one of the world's largest music print publisher "Hal Leonard Corporation", who exclusively control print rights for more than 6000 of the compositions listed on our website. Publisher demand us to cease and desist from offering these unauthorized lyrics for distribution via our website.

We had no choice but to remove all these lyrics from our site, otherwise AZLyrics.com would be closed.

I think if you make enough money of the lyrics, you will be worth sueing, I have a few hundred popular lyrics on my website, but it's only a small appendix to a large community/portal website that brings in some nice traffic, but Im prepared to drop it without question if I get trouble from the owners of the lyrics.

Now that Im on it anyway, here's a list of the artists that use lyrics from Hal Leonard Corporation: http://www.google.nl/search?q=link:h...&start=10&sa=N

(all the lyrics with a star after the title)