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  1. #101
    SitePoint Enthusiast Lotus's Avatar
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    Yea,

    De Facto is one of my favorite explorers as well. Isn't he the guy who first discovered facts? Up until then, everyone was pretty much treading water in a sea of speculation; an entropic abyss of conjecture and theory, if I may...til' this dude came long and established some friggin' order. The man deserves a php framework for that alone.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by arborint
    The reality of this is endless re-inventing of the wheel.
    Not reinventing. More like tailoring the wheel for a specific application. For example, you wouldn't want to land a jet airliner with mountain bike tires.

    Quote Originally Posted by arborint
    Actually there are really not that many ways to run a business or different leadership styles. That is another area with a lot of reinventing the wheel and a lot of failure because of it.
    Business is not about process, which is one of the points I'm trying to make. Sure, there are established processes out there for getting things done, and yes, they do the job. But to make better products and add more value to people's lives, those generic processes must constantly be "reinvented" as customers' (and suppliers') desires change. Do you know what makes Dell so different from HP? The easy answer is "a lower-cost model." In reality, that lower-cost concept must be applied across the entire enterprise.

    Quote Originally Posted by arborint
    Web apps for businesses are business apps. Companies like SAP, Oracle, and Microsoft are tools makers, and if anything they have lead to an explosion of business app development because of their standards based tools.
    That's a technical argument if I've ever seen one. The "business apps" market was meant to be an example of "what happens when standards are made." I will respond to this in a later post when I have more time (it's a good discussion).

  3. #103
    SitePoint Member
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    WOW, this thread unravelled in all directions...
    As far as frameworks, they are fine for compiled languages where the processor can be applied 100% to that task - i.e. most applications aren't CPU bound. With PHP, you have a VERY short time to serve up the page, in most cases, AND the server may be recivieving hundreds or even thousands of other page requests at the same time.

    I would much rather spend a bit more time creating efficient code than to have a sluggish web site. I even reject most of the multi-database libraries due to their overhead - if using a different database is that important, then I can take the time to hand-port the queries.

    Bottom line, the tool must meet the need. PHP creates quick, low-cost web sites better than any other language.

  4. #104
    SitePoint Guru thr's Avatar
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    EarlDaniels: Yeah this thread certainly took a life of it's own. Been thinking some more about all the stuff discussed in here, going to come back tomorrow after a good nights sleep with some ideas and suggestions!

  5. #105
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Anybody heard of the reports of a zend framework announcement pretty soon? (On a php conference)

    http://www.procata.com/blog/archives...mework-rumors/
    http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2005/...and-framework/
    http://pixelated-dreams.com/archives...ipse-.NET.html

    This thread must have inspired Zend

  6. #106
    SitePoint Zealot HenriIV's Avatar
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    Please don't forget docs and I18n, it's a common request for open source projects but still neglected parts of a project. It's more important that hype to increase community.

  7. #107
    SitePoint Guru thr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenriIV
    Please don't forget docs and I18n, it's a common request for open source projects but still neglected parts of a project. It's more important that hype to increase community.
    Documentation is essential imho, nothing more irritating when you find some good library to use and it got 0 docs.

  8. #108
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    Or worse, 0 tests

  9. #109
    SitePoint Wizard
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    I'll take unit tests and example apps over documentation any day.
    Christopher

  10. #110
    SitePoint Evangelist Ian R. Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thr
    Spot on.

    This is indeed the big problem in PHP, you have Mojavi, WACT, PHP-MVC, Phrame,etc. - and what have they all done? They've implemented the same that's been wheel that's been around for ever, in X amount of different ways. Sure, diversity is great but if the price you have to pay to get it is a split up community that never does anything but argue over Z vs Y, then atleast I dont like it or want it.

    PEAR hade the opportunity to become great, but they wasted thier chance imho - Even though they are trying to shapen up I would be ashamed to use most(not all, there's some quality code in there too) of what's in the PEAR-repository on a day-to-day basis.

    No, it might not be 100% truthfully in every case, but if you look at the majority of our competitors maybee they have one or two big frameworks to work with, and many people that use them. What do we have? About 10 frameworks with about 5% of the community using them.

    And as arborint pointed out, if you are not interested in trying to get some type of framework up and running, or atleast discussing how we should do it - then please, don't post more. I'm no interrested in argueing this subject, as it's been done so many times before. Are there any people that would like to atleast think and talk about how this would best be done? And IMHO, PHP5 (E_STRICT) standards is a must. As we'd wan't to implement this for the future, not the past?

    I don't think that doing something like YASIW (Yet Another Struts Implementation for the Web) is something we should be aiming at, instead we should try to look at what does the community need? What does it want? etc. And how to people feel about trying to talk to the WACT/Mojavi/etc. guys ? I'm not expecting anyone to just drop thier project and come running to this sitepoint thread, but maybee they can give input, ideas or even contribute some code? Who knows. But it's worth a try I think.
    I don't know if someone already mentioned this but, if they did this is just re-iternation then.

    While, I can appreciate the need for a standards base unfortunately people have different views on how this can and should be accomplished, just think about those who code in a procedural format and those who use OOP. There are lots of other little differences too, in coding styles, use of types of controls, etc, etc.

    The problem is much grander than one group can realize, its kind of something that will never happen and I think that's fine. We don't have to unify behind a common framework and I think that is something that makes PHP great, we are "forced" into someone we might not really like and we are kind of free to do something completely custom and our own even if it is re-inventing the wheel or going back to the stone age.
    Ian Gordon
    CSS / XHTML / PHP Programmer
    http://www.iangordon.us


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