Has the Fun Gone Out of PHP?

[datune]

Given the long, tiresome threads here about OO vs Procedural, lack of interesting new features, difficulty implementing frameworks cleanly in OO, PHP5 woes, BC breakage complaints, etc ... has the fun gone out of PHP?

Now call me crazy, but I think what you said just proves the opposite. People still take enough interest to even be bothered to have those discussions (also let's not forget to put things in perspective. PHP's current "state" is not reflected by a bunch of people who have to much time to spread FUD and other moronic statements and most likely aren't even allowed to work for a living!).

On a rather personal note, and please don't take offense, I honestly don't understand the intention of your post.

difficulty implementing frameworks cleanly in OO

Are you kidding me?

lack of interesting new features

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I don't even know why I bother to respond to a thread like this...

[ethanp]

PHP is still fun to me. As pointed out earlier, it is the most practical language to quickly get server side related programming done, and effectively. Rails is okay (looked into it recently), but I'm not a huge fan of frameworks - I just don't like working with them. Personal preference of course.

I've recently been looking into experimenting a bit in Python, but I'll probably stick with PHP in the long run. I like the fact that it is easy to use, and brings the joy of progressiveness into my programming.

[DarkAngelBGE]

I agree with mmj, Rick etc., a language itself cannot be fun. The result of a programming session with a particular language can be fun, though, and that's it.

Also me thinks there are lots of cool new php things coming on the horizon, like the ability to integrate php with Java (well done already), C++, OpenGL and the lot (Windows applications with PHP, awesome!) among others.

[samsm]

I agree with mmj, Rick etc., a language itself cannot be fun. The result of a programming session with a particular language can be fun, though, and that's it.

Ok, that's pushing it.

"A Frisbee itself is not fun, it is the playing with a Frisbee that can be fun."
What? Like anyone actually meant that the Frisbee was innately fun. Yet, when you are playing with a Frisbee that flies further with less effort, you might editorialize that it is a more fun Frisbee. Hey, if you want to play catch with a carboard box, that's totally cool, just don't make believe you can toss that thing more than 10 feet.

I also question the assertion in some other posts that programming is merely a means to an end. If you don't find the process of solving problems using programming languages fun: find another profession. For your own good. Do something you like, life is too short.

I think what is being noticed is while advanced PHP folks are having a debate over minutia, Ruby folks are basking over some features that implements a bleeding edge web programming skill with one line of code. It's a disparity.

PHP: What's the best way to implement this good idea? (long argument follows)
Ruby: Hey, this good idea is already reasonably implemented in Rails, how might we make it even better? (oohing and ahhing follows)

No? Do I have it wrong?

[BerislavLopac]

PHP: What's the best way to implement this good idea? (long argument follows)
Ruby: Hey, this good idea is already reasonably implemented in Rails, how might we make it even better? (oohing and ahhing follows)

No? Do I have it wrong?

Just wait until Ruby Web frameworks will be as old as PHP.

Yes, I know that Ruby is older than PHP, but Ruby is not a Web framework, Ruby is a general-purpose language. Rails is a Web framework, and it's a) very new, b) the only game in town, and c) very cleverly designed, borrowing, refining and improving ideas found in other technologies, including PHP.

PHP already has a standard Web framework (PHP itself), and the arguments issue when discussing how to make that framework even better. When there are several forks/versions/modifications of Rails around, you'll see arguments there.

[samsm]

Just wait until Ruby Web frameworks will be as old as PHP.

Sure, and if Rails doesn't keep up, I will probably using a different framework by then.
At the pace technology is evolving that would make a lot of sense.

That's exactly the point. Tomorrow, PHP could bounce right back with a framework that outmatches Rails in every respect. When that happens I will gladly abandon Rails. I'd do the same if a Perl framework emerged that kicked Rails' butt, why not?

[Toly]

I also question the assertion in some other posts that programming is merely a means to an end.

Well, perhaps it is a matter of opinion? It's up to you to decide what you want to do. I mean, maybe there's a programming language out there that helps you cook your dinner, I don't know. For me, it is a tool for a job, a means to an end or whatever else people want to call it.

If you don't find the process of solving problems using programming languages fun: find another profession. For your own good. Do something you like, life is too short.

You seem to imply that you cannot like something if you there's no fun involved. I don't agree.

[momos]

learning PHP is like learning the piano, it is very easy in the beginning, and it gets harder when you know more, you want to optimise your technique, but by then you love playing the music so much you don't want to stop...

[mmj]

I didn't find learning the piano easy in the beginning at all. But learning PHP is similar to learning the piano in that if you learn bad techniques in the early stages, it becomes difficult to learn the correct techniques later on.

[stereofrog]

Continuing the piano analogy, there is difference between bechstein grand and $99 casio board (guess what applies to php). The more advanced you are, the more difference it makes.

[NetNerd85]

I have been "programming" (not sure if what I do is worthy of that title yet ) in PHP for around 6 - 8 months. Not exactly sure the begining of the year is a bit of a blur But I remember attemting to learn PHP on numerous occasions, not having any programming knowledge I found it difficult to see the differences between markup & programming languages.

I am just starting to get into OOP now and everything is as exciting as it was 6 - 8 months ago. I did find myself googling for Ruby but that was out of interest. I have little intention of commiting myself to PHP although I will always love it the syntax is just perfect.

Last night I found myself going over an old search script I wrote for a clients CMS / website. Couldn't help but laugh and re-write it, it turned out to be less than half the size it was originally. PHP allows you to code in many different ways. I think trying to find as many different ways as possible is where some of the fun lays.

Programming to me is just making something do something. Working out ways for something to do something is fun.

If PHP isn't fun for you any more, the only reason you'll find another language fun is because your discovering something new. PHP is vast, it is possible you have discovered it all but unlikely. Are you sure you've turned over every stone?

[samsm]

You seem to imply that you cannot like something if you there's no fun involved. I don't agree.

Seems we just have different ways of using words to express ideas.
There is nothing I like doing that isn't fun to me.

[coo_t2]

Continuing the piano analogy, there is difference between bechstein grand and $99 casio board (guess what applies to php). The more advanced you are, the more difference it makes.

Isn't that a little harsh? I know PHP may not be as polished as <insert the most super cool language here> , but for what it's meant to do, it's pretty fine. $99 casios aren't suitable for any serious musicians, yet there are many serious programmers who use PHP for real, non-trivial, enterprise* applications -- several of those people I'm sure are regulars in this forum. At least compare it to a keyboard that's in the $1000's range.

* By enterprise, in this context, I just mean applications that either make money or are used in one way or another to facilitate the making of money.

[arborint]

I would like to address a couple of point mentioned here and answers so direct questions.

On a rather personal note, and please don't take offense, I honestly don't understand the intention of your post.

I started the thread because I had read what I thought were interesting and relevant comments about why one chooses a language/system and specifically about PHP/Ruby. I thought that Ruby thread would be interesting to PHP forum readers and I think it was.

I think the biggest question here, and perhaps my poor choice of words, is what FUN means. I think the "shiney/new" aspect of something like Rails is certainly a factor. But what I meant by "fun" was a language that allows you to grow as a programmer/designer and is a pleasure to use because you can build what you want to build with relative ease. I know that most of the time I find PHP much more of a pleasure to build web apps in that, for example, Java. That relative ease of use is probably why many of us use PHP. It is fast to develop in; it is easy to access the many extensions; it has great community for support; etc. But as complexity increases, using PHP becomes less of a joy. PHP5 helps a little, but I am running into more things that are easy in other languages, but that I have to do much more work in PHP to get similar results. And that is counter to what makes PHP great.

The reason Rails is interesting is that is provides the benefits that PHP does, but apparently even better. Ultimately Rails will be good for PHP because my guess is that will cause PHP6 will be less influenced by the thinking that made PHP5 half-baked.

[Dr Livingston]

by the thinking that made PHP5 half-baked.

Certainly PHP5 is a few crumbs short of a chocolate cookie, but in all it's not that bad to work with, and there have been a number of advances from PHP4.yuk

[Super Phil]

PHP5 helps a little, but I am running into more things that are easy in other languages, but that I have to do much more work in PHP to get similar results.

Examples?

[Fenrir2]

PHP was very fun to me when I'd never heard of Ruby. I implemented some website-generation tool in PHP, and later in Ruby. Even thoug I'd never done anything in Ruby, the Ruby version was much less work. Partially because the cleaner syntax, and partially because the cleaner OO. So the Ruby version was really morefun.

But I will gladly change to another language if that language is better, but I don't think i'll change back to PHP if there will be a good framework for it. The syntax is very clumsy, so the framework has to be really good.

[arborint]

PHP5 helps a little, but I am running into more things that are easy in other languages, but that I have to do much more work in PHP to get similar results.

Examples?

A couple come to mind immediately.

One of the things that becomes much more of an issue as application size/complexity increases are cross cutting concerns. Other systems have tackled theses issues head-on with things like AOP and DI. But in PHP we are lacking elegant, built-in language constructs that do what, for example, runkit does in a limited way.

Also, objects in general didn't really grow-up in PHP5. They just got a few more magic methods tacked on. Certainly helpful, but as you explore more you find the limits make them less useful than a first sight. A prime example is that SPL had to code in C to provide functionality that objects ought to have in the first place.

__autoload() is another example of a pretty good addition that ultimately is an error handler that was added because the internal fuctionality was there. It is not really an innovative take on what a class loader might be in PHP.

And on file management, require/include had the _once() functions tacked on a while back. I actually really like the explicitness of this, but the whole system with search paths, the lack of name spaces, no language level packaging, etc.. it seems like it needs some rethinking rather than tacking on things like __autoload().

[Radley]

PHP5 helps a little, but I am running into more things that are easy in other languages, but that I have to do much more work in PHP to get similar results.

Examples?

I really miss mixins when going from Ruby to PHP. I think PHP would benefit a lot from a mixin-type system.

[spikeZ]

For me the development of the end product is the fun part. Maybe I do yearn for the days of...
10 print hello
20 goto 10

But the types of applications I build lend themselves perfectly to PHP. Quick development and turnaround of projects is what I am looking for in a programming language and that's what I get.
That's in PHP4 btw.

At the end of the day the real fun is getting the final balance from the client and decideing which car you will buy next.

I don't feel like there is no fun to be had at all. PHP5 look very interesting and I will get onto it in the future.

Until then I will quite happily carry on having fun doing what I do and the language I do it in!

SpikeZ

[Pavel_Nedved]

I think the fun's going because people are getting better at the language. It's not as much fun when you're no longer learning.

Picture getting a large, complicated script to work for the first time. You're pumped, you're excited (, you're a nerd!). But if you've done it 100x over, there's no reason to get excited about it. It's no longer new.

[bonefry]

I think a language should evolve like Madonna.

Every time people get bored, it should come up with something new to keep the juice pumping

[bonefry]

Interesting thread ..... I have to agree with Rick, MMJ & Toly though .... what's to be fun? A language (whichever you use) is a way to solve a set of business problems in the most efficient way possible, one that considers your clients business rules, the demands those rules make on an application and the platform it needs to operate on.

Yes, I will have to agree too.
And furthermore, beside the fact that it is a weak&dynamic and easy to learn language, I never liked PHP too much. But I liked the fact I could make a guestbook in 30 minutes by reading a 3 page tutorial.

Although I am dissapointed about at least 1 decision the authors took, I am happy they are taking the evolution of PHP seriously.

[Etnu]

If the "fun" you derive from programming comes at the LANGUAGE LEVEL, you seriously need to re-evaluate your career. The language that you're using should be a very minor aspect of what you create.

Development ideas should come like this:

"When the user searches for documents, we'll automatically search the forums as well to get related, recent discussions"

Not a single piece of code in that statement.

There's not a language on the planet that ultimately actually makes development go that much faster. At the end of the day, release cycles of projects written in language a vs. language b, procedural vs. functional, whatever -- all tend to have roughly similiar release schedules, based upon the scope of the project. That's because, usually, about 75-90% of the time is spent on thinking up solutions to problems, refactoring, and experimenting, and only 10-25% of the time is spent implementing them. If you happen to work at one of the many brain-addled development houses out there, you probably get the additional 'benefit' of massive UML diagramming and functional specs as well...

[TriGeminal]

For me, nothing is missed, I've all the fun with php .. It was, still and will be my favorite whatever happened!