Being spoiled by Ruby / Rails

[jpease]

I have been working through the Programming Ruby & Agibe Web Dev W/ Rails books (both of which I would highly recommend).

While I have not done any "real" coding in Ruby / Rails yet (just a few scripts), I already feel that I am getting spoiled. I was reading the PDO article in the Sept 05 issues of PHP|Architect, and after working with Rails' ActiveRecord, the PHP approach just seemed so clunky.

I'm hoping to do a real project in ROR before too long. I guess then I will be better able to see whether the love will last.

[joepetrini]

I've been reading the same book which is great. I sat down to start a full fledged application and was a little overwhelmed on where to start. I almost gave up, but stuck with it and things are slowly starting to come together. As the app keeps building it remains completely structured and manageable. If I were doing this in php, I would've started hacking at the code and diverting from my original plan by now. I'm not totally sold, but I'm def starting to like the rails platform.

[KTottE]

Heh, tell me about it. I've been experimenting with RoR and reading up on it, since a website I help maintain are thinking about a massive re-write - which will probably be done in RoR.

So, last week I was going to write some basic blog functionality for a website that I share with some friends, and I figured "Ah heck, I'll just do it in PHP" since PHP was already up and configured for the site (running punBB).

So I sit down, and I think... "Wait, you mean I have to write all this database-related code myself? Aarrghhh".

The site runs RoR now

[vgarcia]

Totally agree. I had to work on an ASP project yesterday and I was really wishing for something that felt less "manual" if you know what I mean.

[sylow]

I told my client yesterday that I am selling my windows machine and buying a mac to dedicate myself full time RoR development. It feels so good.

[jpease]

I told my client yesterday that I am selling my windows machine and buying a mac to dedicate myself full time RoR development. It feels so good.

I have a mac mini in addition to my main PC workstation. I'm sure you will like your mac.

Your post seems to indicate though that their is some link between developing RoR and owning a mac. I don't see the requirement. Of course, that may not have been what you meant.

[sylow]

Sorry if I caused any confusion, but to be honest because David and Textdrives' RoR developers made me believe that Mac is a good way to go.

Plus for few big project I need to play with lighttpd, and instead of converting my box to linux, I go for Mac for ease of use

[SRTech]

Don't think I want to ever create a database driven app in php again. Good thing several hosts are now supporting ruby/rails.

[MiiJaySung]

Come on, I know I grumble about PHP sometimes, but it ain't *that* bad. Still, having said that, I've had to use Java at uni (first time I've ever had to code in Java), and all I can say is I hated Java before I started programming in it. Now I have to use it I hate it even more! What worst is that so many people at uni seem to see java as the best thing since sliced bread and butter.

[bonefry]

@MiiJaySung, I told you several times allready, why do you engage in such nonsense ? Are you a troll ?

You are beginning to sound like a broken record.
You also are disrestpectful to all those hard working people at Sun and Apache and all those other companies and individuals maintaining Java for profit or as a hobby.

So, what makes you special ?
Have you ever made contributions to Ruby yet ?

I hated Java before I started programming in it

This line says it all. Are you even a programmer ?
Or you're just a student mumbling on forums all day instead of actually learning something ?

What worst is that so many people at uni seem to see java as the best thing since sliced bread and butter.

Java IS the best thing since sliced bread.
And what you fail to realize is that Java and .NET will dominate the future of general-purpose programming.
Ruby's future is limited to several domains.

Java does not suck. You suck. And you suck badly.

[KTottE]

With all due respect, Java is NOT the best thing since sliced bread. I'm not saying Ruby is (not by a long shot) but pretending that Java is the be-all end-all is not realistic.

[vgarcia]

rant

PEOPLE ARE ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINIONS, WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT MATCH WHAT YOU THINK.

Now that we have that out of the way, let's discuss something else please

[bonefry]

With all due respect, Java is NOT the best thing since sliced bread. I'm not saying Ruby is (not by a long shot) but pretending that Java is the be-all end-all is not realistic.

Who ever said it's the be-all end-all ?

Yes it is the best thing since sliced bread and butter.

If it weren't for Java changing the minds of all those pointy haired bosses about interpretters and virtual machines I doubt PHP, Python and Ruby would've had the success they now share.

... and, do you eat bread and butter *all* the time ?

To comment a little further on @MiiJaySung's comment ... all this nonsense about how Java sucks is making me think of all those nice and friendly guys from comp.lang.ruby that are trying really hard to help newbies and to advocate for Ruby without bashing competing platforms ... making me and others think the Ruby community is really nice ... and yet ... I see individuals like @MiiJaySung that manage to f*uck up that impression.

Again, @KTottE, who ever said Java is the be-all end-all ? Do you think that you made the Ruby community any good with another meaningless statement ?

The yeah, the subject of this thread is stupid (since I began ranting, let's do it all the way) ... programming in Ruby is fun and Ruby is a powerfull language, but programming in Ruby is not easy ... spoiled ? ... give me a break ... it's just an impression.

[jpease]

EVERYBODY JUST STOP!!!!!

This is ridiculous. I certainly didn't intend this to be a bash anything else thread.

I wasn't trying to say Ruby is the best. I wasn't trying to say Java stinks.

[Luke Redpath]

Who ever said it's the be-all end-all ?

Yes it is the best thing since sliced bread and butter.

If it weren't for Java changing the minds of all those pointy haired bosses about interpretters and virtual machines I doubt PHP, Python and Ruby would've had the success they now share.

... and, do you eat bread and butter *all* the time ?

To comment a little further on @MiiJaySung's comment ... all this nonsense about how Java sucks is making me think of all those nice and friendly guys from comp.lang.ruby that are trying really hard to help newbies and to advocate for Ruby without bashing competing platforms ... making me and others think the Ruby community is really nice ... and yet ... I see individuals like @MiiJaySung that manage to f*uck up that impression.

Again, @KTottE, who ever said Java is the be-all end-all ? Do you think that you made the Ruby community any good with another meaningless statement ?

The yeah, the subject of this thread is stupid (since I began ranting, let's do it all the way) ... programming in Ruby is fun and Ruby is a powerfull language, but programming in Ruby is not easy ... spoiled ? ... give me a break ... it's just an impression.

Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder about Java? He's entitled to express his opinion about Java..it wasn't like he was giving it a complete disection, merely stating he did not like using it. Neither do I...that doesn't mean Java is a bad language, it simply means I don't like it and couldn't bear having to use it on a daily basis.

Now, if he'd come in a Java forum and started bashing Java you may have a point, but this is a Ruby forum, so lets all just get along

[MystaMax]

I'm finding ruby quite interesting in the early stages, it'll be quite some time before I can get the full benefits out this framework, but I'm enjoying these early stages.

His opinions on java shouldn't matter. If he thinks *java* sucks then it sucks for him. Just telling him he sucks, for think java sucks, is just plain stupid and disrespectful. Show some courtesy please.

[bonefry]

His opinions on java shouldn't matter. If he thinks *java* sucks then it sucks for him. Just telling him he sucks, for think java sucks, is just plain stupid and disrespectful. Show some courtesy please.

Ah great, another one.

I come from an ex-communist country and believe me I know what free-speach is all about. The enemy of free-speach is censorship. But then again, free-speach is dangerous if we tollerate it on the basis of "it was just his oppinion".

If enough people think that something sucks, those people will influence people around them. It is called social perception.

@MiiJaySung was also affected by social perception. His own comment explains it: "I hated Java before I started programming in it".

Now, maybe I would have replied "Why do you hate it ?" but only if it was @MiiJaySung first time. But he said the same thing without arguments multiple times. Not only on this forum but also on the PHP one. He is a troll, no doubt about it.

So, because we are on a programming forum were we ussualy talk about technical details, if someone says "Java sucks" or "I hate Java" I expect them to give technical details or at least valid reasons like "I lost my job because of Java" or something.

PEOPLE ARE ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINIONS

So again, have I cenzored @MiiJaySung for his statement ??
No, I choose to not tolerate it.
Is that not the right thing to do ? Considering this is a public forum.

In conclusion, if I am tolerating such statements on a technical forum, some day I may be forced to work with platforms I don't like simply because enough people came to one conclusion that "Java sucks" without really having arguments. And if you think that replacement platform will be Ruby ... think again.

And btw, @MystaMax, your comment is also plain stupid and disrespectful

This is ridiculous. I certainly didn't intend this to be a bash anything else thread.

I wasn't trying to say Ruby is the best. I wasn't trying to say Java stinks.

I know buddy, but this kind of topic will always generate flames.

[davro]

Hi all,

The postman arrived with my amazon book order.
'QED A Play' inspired by the writings of Richard Feynman and ...
"Agile Web Development with Rails"

This Rails book so far is very impressive.
I am trying to keep an open mind about this book/technology.
But i have never been so tempted by anything like this before apart from 'sexy/dirty ladies' so quickly.
RoR MVC framework is inspiring 'IMHO'

[MystaMax]

Read the rules

DON'T ATTACK EACH OTHER
Don't attack others. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully ... without insult and personal attack.

You clearly don't understand the rules of this forum. He stated his opinion on Java, keep the topic on Java. If you don't like it dont post.

[ChrisCarter]

Odd that you would choose to talk about trolls and flaming in the Ruby community, bonefry, since you seem to be the one doing most of it here. Perhaps you should simply hold your tongue rather than draw more ire from the people who happen to think that a person is entitled to their opinion, and entitled to state their opinion as many times as they'd like. If people believe that opinion and you don't like it, state your counter-opinion and sway them back. That's the whole point of intelligent discourse.

Now, back to the topic at hand. I completely agree with the poster. We're a .NET development shop right now, but we've been evaluating Rails for the past year or so. I can honestly say that it's "convention over configuration" and generated structure is a breath of fresh air coming from a world where one developer can quickly propose a solution that no one else understands. The fact that Ruby is incredibly expressive and it's "meta-programming" is much more powerful than the simple reflection of .NET or Java provides many interesting avenues for simple but powerful solutions to common problems.

We won't drop .NET right away (there's still a few unanswered questions I have about some advanced database-related issues), but we're looking to make the jump within the next 6 months, if only to get off the Windows platform.

[Fenrir2]

Java is different, but that doesn't mean Ruby is better.
Java beats Ruby by far if you look at execution speed.

Ruby beats Java if you look at *my* programming speed. You can do something fast in Java because an IDE can track types and provide you with better code completion. You can do things fast in Ruby because you don't have to type a lot.
I prefer Ruby because I cannot use IDEs effectively. Therefore I use scite and I'm happy with it.

I think Ruby is better than PHP because it is so much cleaner. But I still use PHP a lot because there are much more webhosts for it, and many clients expect PHP when the ask for a web application.

Now I've learned Ruby PHP programming is much harder because I forget semicolons and braces all the time, and I type def when I mean function.
Another problem is:

foreach($pages as $page){

for page in pages

The order is different in PHP, and sometimes I write:

foreach($page as $pages){

Which generates an error ^^

[Ilija Studen]

I've read Agile Web Development With Rails few months ago but without making any working scripts. I just don't have time right now for new language.

Good thing is that I adopted many of rails concepts: have fully working MVC framwork with routing, framework automaticly connects controller methods and templates, implemented flash etc. Model is bunch of Porpel generated classes so there is no manual database work. Basicly, with this thing I'm far more productive than before and my app look and work better.

I don't think I'll switch to Ruby but one thing is sure: Rails thought me a few pretty handy tricks.

[hysteriaweb]

I've read Agile Web Development With Rails few months ago but without making any working scripts. I just don't have time right now for new language.

Good thing is that I adopted many of rails concepts: have fully working MVC framwork with routing, framework automaticly connects controller methods and templates, implemented flash etc. Model is bunch of Porpel generated classes so there is no manual database work. Basicly, with this thing I'm far more productive than before and my app look and work better.

I don't think I'll switch to Ruby but one thing is sure: Rails thought me a few pretty handy tricks.

Sounds like you got what you needed out of the concepts!