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  1. #26
    SitePoint Enthusiast Chris H's Avatar
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    That letter about Dr Laura has been around for a few years, surprised more of you haven't seen it. And it is someone having a sarcastic dig at her after she made some comments about homosexuality on a radio show. Also a point to note is that Dr Laura Schlessinger is not a Christian, she's a Jew. So why does he talk about the bible in the letter? Ignorance, palin and simple.

    The letter also shows the authors ignorance of the OT and biblical theology. There are several Christian 'views' that deal with the relationship of the OT laws to Christians today. (try new covenant theology, covenant theology and dispensationalism). None of them put forward the premise that the OT laws as written are applicable to Christians. No Christian believes that they have to keep the OT laws as written and the NT doesn't teach it either. I have to admit that there are many Christians who will trot out the OT laws regarding homosexual behaviour without understanding that they are just not applicable as written.
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  2. #27
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Goof, that hurt me deep.

    I respectfully bow out, as You'll notice that my arguments were indeed falling apart. I don't have these discussions that often, nor do I care too much about them.

    Why couldn't you just have stayed away a lil longer? joking, joking.

    Anyways, have fun. These arguments aren't worth getting too involved in.

    No one will ever be able to prove their point %100. It just won't happen.

    But good luck trying.
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  3. #28
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Dr Laura Schlessinger is not a Christian, she's a Jew. So why does he talk about the bible in the letter? Ignorance, palin and simple.
    You're obviously the ignorant one. The old testament is jewish. Moses and his people are all jews.

    Christianity is an offspring of the jewish religion, they differ in that jews do not believe Jesus was the son of God, christians do. But its the same god.

    Anyways, I'm not going to try to argue with you anymore, it obviously won't work. This is what happens when people are too intolerant and too wrapped up in their faith. You'll make up any excuses for things in the bible and explain how they are not true today, except the points you want to believe in, or rather your parents/priests want you to believe in.

    Generally religious people aren't scientific, so this may or may not make sense to you. In scientific research you cannot discard any of your results, you have to include everything, even the ones that make no sense, if you discard any results you must discard all results.

    What you're doing with the bible is discarding the rules/beliefs/doctrines you don't want to follow and accepting only the ones you do want to follow.

    You're not following the teachings of the bible, you're following a customized version of it suited to your likings.
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  4. #29
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    Um....scientists have biases too. Believe it or not, but that does affect how they view data, which is the main factor.

    I don't know who you are referring to, Aspen, in some of that last post.

    I believe every word of the Bible.

  5. #30
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    Originally posted by revilre
    Remember God promises to preserve His Word, and it is preserved in the English language as the KJV. He only promises for it to be preserved, does that mean it is preserved in a billion different forms? No, only one is preserved, that is the KJV.
    Where in the Bible does it say the KJV is the only preserved word of God?

  6. #31
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Why is this so hard to understand: certain texts no longer had a direct impact on us, due to Jesus' saving us. They are ALL worth reading, however, whether they all apply, or not.

  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard Aes's Avatar
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    I think that the Bible is more of some peoples interpretation of why things happened (according to their views) instead of God's direct story of the way things happened. This would coincide with why there's so much anti-gay sentiment in the Bible, because those interpreters viewed it as wrong, and thus stated it was wrong. That's just my view -- any one else thinking along these lines as well?
    Colin Anderson
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  8. #33
    SitePoint Wizard Aes's Avatar
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    Well -- regarding "The Great Flood," there's evidence that that happened because the polar ice caps melted somewhat and the water-level rose. Southern Europe and what is today the Middle East, and many other parts of the world were covered with water (i.e. "The Great Flood"). Hence the source of your "260 different cultures." Then, as Earth got cooler, the water level rose again and lead to the next Ice Age. Now it's heating up again, albeit maybe faster due to gases, greehouse effect etc., but still.
    Colin Anderson
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  9. #34
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    What evidence is there for creation science?

  10. #35
    SitePoint Wizard Aes's Avatar
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    Hmmm ... I heard something about all of a sudden in some parts of the world that all of a sudden about a thousand years ago lifeform fossiles appear in rock and stuff.

    ::cough::

    What about fossils and things predating that by thousands and millions of years? There may be some creation science -- but there's far more scientific evidence to counter the recent creation science....
    Colin Anderson
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  11. #36
    SitePoint Wizard Aes's Avatar
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    Regardless -- it's still much older than stated in the Bible, and thus creationism theory -- that has to count for something....
    Colin Anderson
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  12. #37
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Uh...there's a verse in The Bible that tells you how old the world is?

  13. #38
    SitePoint Wizard Aes's Avatar
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    I thought the Bible stated around 6,000 to 7,000 although I can't remember....

    >=^P

    Edit Well not stated per se, but....
    Colin Anderson
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  14. #39
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    Originally posted by revilre
    The doctrinal changes from the modern versions to the KJV may appear as many small changes, however we wouldn't accept a drastic change from salvation through faith, to salvation through baptism (see Acts 8:36-38 in a KJV and then in an NIV or other modern version).
    I compared the verses in both versions of the Bible. The main difference is that this line was deleted: "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." But then again, was it deleted? Could it perhaps have not existed in the in the original scripts that it was translated from? You are assuming that just because it is in the KJV bible, that it is missing from the NIV.

    Originally posted by revilre
    But one must also realize that the KJV is still fairly easy to read, as long as one is literate, and has a bit of understanding of older english. The KJV is not in Old English, nor Middle English - rather it is Modern English just like we speak now. Thee, thy, thou are the singular forms of you - they are used because the originals use singular forms, not because they used those words in 1611 (and they didn't).
    Most people will not be able to understand the KJB unless they a) get help from someone else b) do research on the singular forms that was used or c) already understand that form of writing.

    I talked to my dad about this, and this is what he sent me:

    -----------------------------------------
    I agree that the King James translation is a good and accurate one. However, many evangelical scholars will attest to the authority of other literal translations, particularly the NIV and the NASB. Your comments about the modern translations are interesting to me, though they go contrary to what I have read in the past about the latter 2 versions. Admittedly, however, I don't know enough details to argue with you about that.

    The bottom line is this: God has given us His inspired Word. The KJV, the NIV, and the NASB all provide us with God's true message to us -- that we are all sinners, lost without Christ, but God sent His Son to die on the cross for us, so that, if we put our faith and trust in Him, we shall be saved.

    Now, I agree that to get the full impact of God's Word, we should study the Bible using an accurate, literal translation. But, if we quibble over these different translations, all of which are very good, are we not leading others away from the True Message?

    Respectfully,

    Doug Roane
    -----------------------------------------

  15. #40
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Do I understand your dad's point correctly? Seems he's saying that, in the end, God has made the essentials of Christianity (belief in Him, repentence of our sins) quite clear...to the point where it would be nearly impossible to misinterpret. That right?

  16. #41
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    Yes, as long as you don't take things out of context.

  17. #42
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Originally posted by revilre
    First off, what purpose would these men have had in writing these texts as if they were from God? None.
    Sorry, I have to step in here again.

    Many times throughout history, governments have used religion to 'con' the people into what they wanted them to do. Now, I dont' mean today, but especially in ancient times (pre-bible, perhaps) leaders used the wrath of god and saying that god was on their side to keep themselves in power. I mean, that much I learned from 7th grade Social Studies a few years back.

    The bible, in my oppinion, is indeed a book of interpretation. You get out of it what you see out of it. I'll make a brief (and probably pretty bad) analogy: It's like the law when the supreme court has an issue. The 'law' is interpreted, and thus the situation decided for all future occurances.
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  18. #43
    SitePoint Wizard Goof's Avatar
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    Originally posted by revilre
    But where does it say that He will preserve a dozen different versions of His Word, all of which differ greatly.
    If it says He will preserve His word then I would take that to mean all of it, not just one. If I say, "I'm going to preserve my eggs," does that mean just 1? I know that there are several "bad" versions of the Bible, but I thought NIV and NAS were both pretty on.

    The doctrinal changes from the modern versions to the KJV may appear as many small changes, however we wouldn't accept a drastic change from salvation through faith, to salvation through baptism (see Acts 8:36-38 in a KJV and then in an NIV or other modern version).
    Sometimes the greek gets interpretted differently. Personally, I'm not going to trash the NIV because of that difference. The idea of the verse is still the same - Phillip baptized him. In no way does it communicate salvation through baptizm.

    As far as calling the KJV antiquated, one must consider that the Jews still use the same text they recieved millennia ago. YES some of the usage has change, but also an interesting point is that the KJV BIble was not writen in the language of 1611, it was written as English equivilency of the original greek and hebrew. So it was not "easy to read" in 1611, just as it is not now.
    Somehow I doubt "thou" and "thy" can be directly translated from the greek. Much of the greek cannot be directly translated and that is why there are small differences between a few modern translations. Allthough, some translations are just terrible.

    But one must also realize that the KJV is still fairly easy to read, as long as one is literate, and has a bit of understanding of older english. The KJV is not in Old English, nor Middle English - rather it is Modern English just like we speak now. Thee, thy, thou are the singular forms of you - they are used because the originals use singular forms, not because they used those words in 1611 (and they didn't).
    When I sit down with someone to evangalize to them, the last thing they want is a lesson in English to go along with the knowledge of the Bible.

    I personally would rather have the Word of God as God gave it to the original pennists. These modern versions are what some scholar (often times ones who deny Christ was God, that the scriptures are preserved, and were involved in other religions) THINKS the Bible means in the scholars words. These versions are not what God gaves us, rather what some MAN thinks God gave us.
    This is just crap (in the case of the NIV anyway). First of all, how do you know that King James didn't mistranslate it? I believe that through his faith God gave him the ability to translate it and that's why the KJV is good. On the other hand, I know that the NIV is made up of a fairly large cousel and they take years to translate the scriptures and then try to come up with the most appropriate translation. I think their faith works the same as King James, but that's just my opinion.

    The KJV translators set out to traslate it literally as word for word as was possible. The modern translators set out to create a version based on what they think the originals said (or as close as we have to the originals).
    I don't know where you came up with this either. Read my comments above. The other thing is that word for word from the greek might not be the best thing because there are vast differences between the sentence structure of the greek and the english.

    Then one must consider who Westcott and Hort were, Hort himself denied Christian salvation, denied the eternity of Hell, believed in the false catholic doctrine that baptism saves.
    Basically I don't really care for these guys either. I pretty much just use NIV.

    All in all, you seem to know a lot about the Biblical translation system (a lot more than I do anyway). I do know that there are some problems fitting the Bible into English. I know two greek students from school and they both agree that there's nothing in English that compares to the original greek. However, they are both on fire for God and haven't said anything bad about the NIV, so I will keep using it. I think there would be minor flaws in all English translations, but they are so minor that the Word of God is preserved. I don't think that the KJV solves all of these problems, and that going to the Greek would probably be the only way to do that.

    Much of this is still my opinion and I realize it isn't fact. I just wanted to tell you what I thought.

    Cheers!
    Goof
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  19. #44
    SitePoint Wizard Goof's Avatar
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    Originally posted by goober
    I'll make a brief (and probably pretty bad) analogy: It's like the law when the supreme court has an issue. The 'law' is interpreted, and thus the situation decided for all future occurances.
    Yeah, I can see what you're saying, but in this case I'd say the Bible is the law, and not the judge's interpretation. The judge would be us when we read it. If we are looking for the right things then we get the right things. However, if we look in it to glorify ourselves we'll either be really disappointed or come away with something that doesn't make sense and is untrue.

    Goof
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  20. #45
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Goof, what you just said makes a bit of sense, I have to admit.
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  21. #46
    SitePoint Wizard Aes's Avatar
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    I agree w/ goober though.

    And I don't view the Bible as law, as many people don't.

    But then again, many (probably more) people do....
    Colin Anderson
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  22. #47
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Then why do people mininsterpret them... ?
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  23. #48
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I love these discussions.

    -God inspired
    -Holy Spirit breathed into
    -His REMA is perfect

    ...

    Nowhere that I find does it say the bible is perfect. Man wrote it, inspired by God. Prophecies (christian) are inspired by God, yes to say every single one is true would be stupidity.

    Of course there are mistakes. To say otherwise is to ignore the facts.

    Of course languages are fluid to the point where you can't nail down an exact translation 2 seconds after I've spoken a novel, never mind 2-4 thousand years afterwards. There are tonnes of cultural contexts, further examples and texts (as in the above phillip's baptism example), etc.

    No written word will ever be able to capture the "essence" of what God wants to say to us as a race, never mind as individuals.
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  24. #49
    SitePoint Wizard Aes's Avatar
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    Alas, yet again, I agree with almost everything you've said.
    Colin Anderson
    Ambition is a poor excuse for those without
    sense enough to be lazy.

  25. #50
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    All of that being said, the bible is the closest we have to what God has said to all mankind...

    Sometimes when I teach biblical shyte I give the analogy of a huge "something". We don't quite know the full meaning... We have vague shapes, impressions, feelings, superstitions (through a glass darkly?).

    No, these aren't perfect. However, what we have is the closest we'll get this side of heaven to it so it is totally worth pursuing.
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