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  1. #1
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Homosexuality and the Bible

    http://www.humorcafe.com/humor/gems/doctor_laura.htm

    and if you don't believe what this says you can verify the references for yourself here:

    http://www.online-literature.com/bible/bible.php
    Last edited by aspen; Aug 3, 2001 at 06:59.
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  2. #2
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Well, now I'm convinced.

  3. #3
    SitePoint Wizard Aes's Avatar
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    Haha. aspen, that's great!
    Colin Anderson
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  4. #4
    Dumb PHP codin' cat
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    Crackin me up!
    Please don't PM me with questions.
    Use the forums, that is what they are here for.

  5. #5
    :) delemtri's Avatar
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    I've seen this letter before and could never quite tell whether the writer was being sarcastic.

  6. #6
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    oh its sarcasm of the heaviest kind.

    Whats its trying to say is that if you think homosexuality is wrong based on the bible then you must also believe these others things based on the bible.

    Its trying to get the point across that morals, people, and society changes over thousands of years, and that maybe, just maybe, what was written in the bible those thousands of years ago shouldn't be taken at face value today.
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  7. #7
    Yugo full of anvils bronze trophy hillsy's Avatar
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    For a freaky look at the other side of this debate:

    http://www.godhatesfags.com

    Disclaimer: The website above contains material which is potentially offensive. I do not condone or support the views expressed on it.
    that's me!
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  8. #8
    I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaack! Fluffykins's Avatar
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    Or for something which I found completely hilarious but is really not at all politically correct visit http://www.bettybowers.com/bash.html or even http://www.bettybowers.com/homoagenda.html .

    Note that besides finding it hilarious I also don't agree with anything on this site except that the URL springs to mind whenever I read General Chat these days

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  9. #9
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    GodHatesFags.com? That's sick. Things like that make me realize more and more why people have a hateful attitude towards religion -- they run into something overblown and exaggerated (God says it's wrong turns into God hates the person to does it). I'd like to personally apologize on behalf of those "believers" -- they do not speak for all of us.

  10. #10
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    I agree whole-heartedly. It shows the dark side of human nature in that people like to hate others who are different.

    And what's the easiest way to get others to follow? Tell them that god hates them, too.

    It's just the same that more wars are started in the name of God(s) than any other cause. Because people are so passionate about god that they forget the real reason behind the war.


    It's human nature to want to believe in a higher cause, but you'd think that common sense would come in somewhere.
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  11. #11
    SitePoint Wizard Goof's Avatar
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    Re: Homosexuality and the Bible

    Originally posted by aspen
    http://www.humorcafe.com/humor/gems/doctor_laura.htm

    and if you don't believe what this says you can verify the references for yourself here:

    http://www.online-literature.com/bible/bible.php
    This post is to everyone in the forums, not just Aspen...

    Once again, may I caution you not to try to disprove something that you know nothing about. No one could disprove that the world is flat if they don't know what "flat" is. Therefore, don't try to disprove the Bible if you don't know what the Bible is (something that is happening more and more frequently). Let me clarify some things:

    I can't speak about Jewish custom, because I am Christian. However, since Christians claim the Old Testiment is also truth (just as much as the New Testiment), I will explain:

    The reason you don't see all the Old Testiment sacrifices and "customs" in the New Testiment is that they were all to cleanse a soul. The OT is filled with blood sacrifices because that's what sin requires for purification. Sin is rebellion against God, and since God is just, He needs sanctification to take place if He is to allow that soul into Heaven (otherwise Heaven would be filled with sin and be something like Earth, not Heaven). The major change between the OT and the NT is that the ultimate sacrifice is paid. Instead of sacrificing a bull for each of my sins, I have put my trust in Jesus, the ultimate sacrifice. Instead of many small sacrifices, I have one HUGE sacrifice purifying me (notice purifying, not purified - I'm not claiming to be perfect, but I'm a lot better than what I was, only due to God's grace).

    Homosexuality, on the other hand, is sin. Sin doesn't change forms - it's always sin. My lies in this time would never have been considered pure. The same is with homosexuality.

    Hope that clears some things up,
    Goof

    P.S. Aspen (or anyone else), if you find anything else that you want clarified, feel free to post it. I don't mind defending the Truth.
    Nathan Rutman
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  12. #12
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    *sigh* it's reasons like this that I'm not all too religious.

    Goof, although I may say that I flat-out disagree with your points, I can't defend my arguments. You spoke your point well.

    As with all sins, however, homosexuality will always be forgiven, provided you believe in the right people?
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  13. #13
    SitePoint Wizard Goof's Avatar
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    Originally posted by goober
    As with all sins, however, homosexuality will always be forgiven, provided you believe in the right people?
    Right people, nah...right person.

    Do you think I was always like this? Sure, I was brought up in a Christian family but I hated 2 hours of church more than 7 hours of school (and believe me, I HATED school). I couldn't stand it. What a waste of my time! However, when I started to pay attension, there were just too many freakin coinsidences that lined up with what the Bible said. Not just one or two...too many that I could count. It was like a change from night to day as soon as I started to pay attension to the world around me. So I certainly understand your additude, because I held it for over 15 years. All I can say is that it's simply not true.

    Cheers,
    Goof
    Nathan Rutman
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  14. #14
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Goof, believe it or not, I'm fairly religious in my own way.

    I appreciate many of the things the bible says, but if I ever had the time, I would write my own version, to be honest with you. "The goober doctrine". I know, you technically can't adapt the bible. But just because you believe in the Bible doesn't mean you have to believe everything it says. You can accept that some things are perhaps out-of-date.

    We all want a higher power to look up to, but in my oppinion it's like a mentor: you hold a really high oppinion of them, you believe them and learn from them, but at some point you need to do your own thing and develop your own ideas.

    EDIT: I suppose this would be a time to remove my avatar text saying "Casually known as 'god'". With all the oppinions these days, I'm the one likely to be 'sacrificed'! (P.S That was not meant at anyone in general, just intended to lighten up the conversation.)

    Also, you'll notice my quote at the bottom. "The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple." Now, THERE'S something I agree with.
    Last edited by goober; Aug 4, 2001 at 10:28.
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  15. #15
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    There is more in the old testament then sacrificing a bull or calling homosexuality a sin.

    If you're going to believe homosexuality is a sin because it says so in Leviticus then you should also be prepared to believe everything else in Leviticus.

    You might be able to explain the bull sacrificing point, but what about the others?

    19:9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

    19:10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
    Hmm? Someone should inform the farmers.

    19:20 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
    Adultry is okay if it is with a slave?

    19:23 And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of.

    19:24 But in the fourth year all the fruit thereof shall be holy to praise the LORD withal.
    So you can only eat fruit in the fourth year?

    19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

    19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.
    I'm in trouble, I have a goatee... and my fiance she has a few tattoos.

    20:17 And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.

    20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
    So if a man accidentially sees his sister naked they shall be banished? And if a man sleeps with a woman on her period they shall be banished? Good thing we all have 2 beds.

    20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
    Indeed, wizards all over the place, we need to do something about the wizard epidemic.

    21:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead among his people: 21:2 But for his kin, that is near unto him, that is, for his mother, and for his father, and for his son, and for his daughter, and for his brother.

    21:3 And for his sister a virgin, that is nigh unto him, which hath had no husband; for her may he be defiled.

    21:4 But he shall not defile himself, being a chief man among his people, to profane himself.

    21:5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.
    People on the swim team shave their heads.... it is a sin.

    25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

    25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
    All of that is from Leviticus.
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  16. #16
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by goober
    I appreciate many of the things the bible says, but if I ever had the time, I would write my own version, to be honest with you. "The goober doctrine".
    That's exactly what it would be: it would be YOUR bible, and it would be the result of your flawed mind, just as my own "version" of it would be flawed in the same ways I am flawed. You can't accept PART of it, because if you accept part of it, and cut out the other parts, you then have a Bible which is not anything more than a book made for yourself.

    I know this sounds confusing, but it really does make sense -- honestly. If you pick and choose what you believe with, then all you'll have left is a bible that is a product of your own mind.

  17. #17
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    Aspen, you've heard this before, but you can't just take things out of context.

    I don't really have the time right now to go through and read all the passages around each of the verses, because I Have some PHP programming to do.

    I am sure there are several people in this forum who can do that. If not, I can do it later tonight.

  18. #18
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Each one of those passages starts with God telling Moses to pass this down to his people.

    Trust me, they are not taken out of context, each one is one of many instructions on a list from God as given to Moses. As a matter of fact they are all said in the same way as the line about homosexuality.

    But don't take my word for it, read it for yourself:

    http://www.online-literature.com/bible/Leviticus/

    its all there, God telling Moses to tell his people what to do, what not to do, and what to kill for.
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  19. #19
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Um, I thought the strongest evidence against homosexuality was in Romans...not in Leviticus. Or am I way off?

  20. #20
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Nope, its in Leviticus...



    http://www.online-literature.com/bib...cus?term=18:22

    Chapter 18 covers what sexual things are sins

    Chapter 19 covers agriculture sins and offerings

    One of the later chapters cover real estate and the transfer of land.

    And so on
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  21. #21
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    What about this? This is what I usually referred to (cool JS trick, by the way):
    http://www.online-literature.com/bib...mans?term=1:27

  22. #22
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Well Leviticus is God laying down the law, its more of a handbook. Romans is more like a history, not telling what is right or wrong, but telling what happened to those who did this and that. You could really use either one.
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  23. #23
    SitePoint Wizard Goof's Avatar
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    Aspen,

    I do agree that all of Lev. is truth, however, these laws are known as Mosaic Law (coming from Moses). As I pointed out before, many of them were just to keep Isreal holy (others were laws laid down because of present time customs souly for Isreal and not for present day Christians). I will attempt to answer them one by one.

    19:9-10 - God was using these voices to instill in Isreal to care for the poor. Something that Christians still need to do today.

    19:20 - I don't know whether it's just all the old english or not, but your interpretation is wrong. Mine says "If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed." Honestly I don't know what that implies for normal slaves. But the fact remains that it calls for punishment. Perhaps any adultry got punishment but adultry with a slave did not receive death. I don't know. Seeing as we don't have slaves anymore, this is kinda irrelevent today.

    19:23-24
    One of those customs, perhaps to test Isreal's faith.

    19:27-28
    In this timeperiod, shaved heads and the cutting of bodies (or tatoos) were signs of mourning of the dead. Since Isreal knew their dead were going to Heaven, they were to take death much more lightly.

    20:17-18
    My version says "If a man marries his sister..." This is just incest - which is a sin. I don't know about verse 18, but again, my Bible refers to sex and not just "sleeping".

    20:27
    This was back in a time when false prophets were everywhere. That's what it's talking about

    21:1-5
    This is just talking about priests being unclean. See the note on 19:27-28.

    25:44-45
    I am not formilliar with slavery customs in this timeperiod. Sorry.


    I would recommend two things:

    1) Get a better translation of the Bible. That looks like the King James Version and seeing as it was the first English translation of the Bible, words have changed meaning since then.

    2) Realize that the first four books of the Bible are known as Historic Books. That means their main purpose is to communicate a history and the character of God, not purely instruction. Look at the New Testiment for most instruction texts (which someone already brought up that homosexuality is mentioned in Romans - an excellent book by the way).

    I hope that clears everything up for you Aspen. I look forward to seeing your reply.

    Goof
    Nathan Rutman
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  24. #24
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    EDIT: n/m, Goof explained it in his post.

  25. #25
    SitePoint Wizard Goof's Avatar
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    Originally posted by goober
    Goof, believe it or not, I'm fairly religious in my own way.
    Hrm, you just said 2 posts before that you weren't religious. Is it ok if you make up your mind?

    I appreciate many of the things the bible says, but if I ever had the time, I would write my own version, to be honest with you. "The goober doctrine". I know, you technically can't adapt the bible. But just because you believe in the Bible doesn't mean you have to believe everything it says. You can accept that some things are perhaps out-of-date.
    You're making a false assumption that my belief in my morals leads to my belief in God. It's the other way around. My belief in God leads me to my belief in my morals. None of the Bible is "out-of-date."

    We all want a higher power to look up to, but in my oppinion it's like a mentor: you hold a really high oppinion of them, you believe them and learn from them, but at some point you need to do your own thing and develop your own ideas.
    This God I speak of is all-knowing and my creator, and I'm just going to consider Him a "mentor"?! Man, I hope no one gives me that kind of lack of appreciation. Plus, the Bible states that God does everything for my good. Why in the world would I want to do something apart from that? As to developing my own ideas, the guy knows EVERYTHING! How can I develop something different from what He already knows?

    Also, you'll notice my quote at the bottom. "The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple." Now, THERE'S something I agree with. [/B]
    I have no idea what that means, but with the logic used to answer some of the other stuff, I'm not sure that you do either.

    Goof
    Nathan Rutman
    A slightly offbeat creative.


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