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Sep 26, 2005, 04:33 #126
I've played with PRADO and the whole thing just seemed very contrived and counter-intuitive. But I don't like the whole "widgets" type approach. I don't think trying to apply GUI programming concepts to web applications is the way forwards.
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Sep 26, 2005, 04:45 #127
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I've played with PRADO too and it is too rigit. Besides, having an ASP.NET clone is not good without good tools, because that is why ASP.NET came into being, for being used by tools.
Originally Posted by KTottE
My definition of a killer framework is a framework popular and good enough to attract people to use it's underlying language and platform. And that's what Zope and Rails are. And that's what PHP lacks. How many on this forum have been attracted to PHP because of PHP.MVC or Horde or Prado or .... ?
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Sep 26, 2005, 04:52 #128
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When I started writing PHP, PHP.MVC, Horde and Prado didn't exist. I also started writing Ruby because of the language itself, and it was when I was looking for Ruby resources that I found out about Rails.
Switching languages because you found a new hyped up framework is pretty pointless IMO. If I want a web application framework I'm not gonna go out and find The Best Framework Ever(tm) regardless of language, I'm gonna go out and find The Most Suitable Framework Available For The Languages I am Capable In.If there is a way to overcome the suffering, there is no need to worry; if there is no way to overcome the suffering, there is no point to worry.
- Shantideva
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Sep 26, 2005, 04:57 #129
So you wouldn't switch even though another language offered a far superior framework? You'd take second best because it happened to be written in a language you already knew? Switching languages for most programmers shoudln't be that big a deal...its working for a lot of people so far...I did it once when I switched from ASP to PHP (still using ASP doesn't bear thinking about), and I'm happy to do it again if the benefits are there, and with Rails, IMO, they clearly are.
And thats not to say that PHP is relegated to history for me (ASP was though)...I'm sure I'll still have occasional uses for it.
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Sep 26, 2005, 04:57 #130
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Originally Posted by KTottE
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Sep 26, 2005, 05:09 #131
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Luke Redpath, I wouldn't switch languages on the basis of a framework alone, no.
Would you switch from Java to C# (or vice-versa) just because the Arbitrary Framework For An Arbitrary Task is available for one but not the other? Assuming, of course, that an equivalent framework exists for the language you currently know. I can tell you right now that I wouldn't. If language X agrees with me more than language Y does, I'll drop Y in favour of X in a heartbeat.
Let's assume that Django ultimately becomes better than Rails, would you stop using Ruby and go over to Python? Or, hypothetically, someone creates a Rails-clone in PHP that is better than Rails, would you go back to PHP?
Always trying to use the Best Tool/Framework/Language/Coffee cup Available will leave you hopping around between things based on what is hyped up the most this week.If there is a way to overcome the suffering, there is no need to worry; if there is no way to overcome the suffering, there is no point to worry.
- Shantideva
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Sep 26, 2005, 05:11 #132
Originally Posted by KTottE
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Sep 26, 2005, 05:25 #133
Originally Posted by asp_funda
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Sep 26, 2005, 05:25 #134
Originally Posted by KTottE
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Sep 26, 2005, 05:26 #135
Originally Posted by Skyblaze
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Sep 26, 2005, 05:35 #136
Originally Posted by Luke Redpath
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Sep 26, 2005, 05:41 #137
Originally Posted by Skyblaze
Now I'm not going to close the thread, but let's get back to the original topic. PHP is kind of irrelevant to it.
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Sep 26, 2005, 05:44 #138
Originally Posted by Skyblaze
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Sep 26, 2005, 05:46 #139
Back on topic:
What is Ruby? An excellent object-oriented scripting language.
Why should you care? Because its powerful, fun to use, and opens up new doors to you, most significantly at this point in time, the Rails framework. But there are lots of other good Ruby libraries and packages as well, many of which can be found here
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Sep 26, 2005, 06:21 #140
Originally Posted by Luke Redpath
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Sep 26, 2005, 07:11 #141
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Originally Posted by bonefry
Off Topic:
FYI, ASP.NET is just a subset of the .NET framework, one which expands the reach of .NET to the web. ASP.NET depends on .NET, not vice versa!! There are a lot of .NET programmers who use VB.NET/C# & I've even met some VC++.NET dudes who don't program for the web but for desktop applications!!Our lives teach us who we are.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Me - Photo Blog - Personal Blog - Dev Blog
iG:Syntax Hiliter -- Colourize your code in WordPress!!
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Sep 26, 2005, 07:29 #142
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@Skyblaze: Could you please stop saying stupid things? How many lines of Ruby-code have you written? So please use Ruby & Ruby on Rails before talking about it.
Ontopic:
I will compare Ruby to PHP based on my experience:
Ruby is focused on OOP, PHP on procedural code. I prefer OOP. Ruby doesn't have a clumsy syntax like:
PHP Code:if($obj->is_something())
{
$obj->do_something();
}
Code:if obj.is_something? obj.do_something end
, no braces ({ and } and ( and )), . instead of ->, and it's common to add a question mark to methods like is_something or has_something => is_something?
PHP:
PHP Code:for($i = 0; $i < 10; $i++)
{
print("hi!");
}
Code:10.times { print "hi!" }
Just give Ruby a try, and you'll find out it's much easier (so you can focus on the real problem), and much more fun!
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Sep 26, 2005, 07:50 #143@Skyblaze: Could you please stop saying stupid things? How many lines of Ruby-code have you written? So please use Ruby & Ruby on Rails before talking about it.
Ok i'll leaving
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Sep 26, 2005, 08:06 #144
Originally Posted by Skyblaze
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Sep 26, 2005, 08:22 #145
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Originally Posted by Skyblaze
There's a word for people like you, but unfortunately, Sitepoints filters would jsut star it out.Sean P Sullivan
Web Hosting::Web Templates::Free Smilies
Free Image Hosting::DIY Home Repair::DIY Gardening::Flash Games
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Sep 26, 2005, 08:35 #146
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Originally Posted by Skyblaze
I think it's better if we put a few code-examples here to compare Ruby to other languages. Then we'll be able to make a good comparison.
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Sep 26, 2005, 08:39 #147
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Originally Posted by Fenrir2
Jason Sweat ZCE - jsweat_php@yahoo.com
Book: PHP Patterns
Good Stuff: SimpleTest PHPUnit FireFox ADOdb YUI
Detestable (adjective): software that isn't testable.
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Sep 26, 2005, 08:46 #148
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Fenrir2: The one thing that is missing from Ruby is the Python-esque way of defining sections of code by indentation.
PHP Code:def somemethod(param)
# This is inside the method
# this is outside the method
If there is a way to overcome the suffering, there is no need to worry; if there is no way to overcome the suffering, there is no point to worry.
- Shantideva
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Sep 26, 2005, 09:03 #149
I'm not too sure if defining code by indentation is such a good thing, not always anyway. If Ruby relied on indentation, it would make something like ERb very difficult if not impossible to implement.
I personally think do...end or def...end makes things more readable. Using white space might make things leaner but I think its too lean.
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Sep 26, 2005, 10:07 #150
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Originally Posted by KTottE
Personally I also tried Django (only followed their tutorials). It's good, well very good actually. And it resembles very much Rails although it is not a Rails clone. I don't have much experience in Python / Django but I like Ruby/Rails better simply because I find Ruby more beautifull than Python. Personal preference.
In our days, in my oppinion, when you learn a language, you really cannot say that the frameworks the platform supporting the language comes with are irrelevant.
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