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  1. #126
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    I've played with PRADO and the whole thing just seemed very contrived and counter-intuitive. But I don't like the whole "widgets" type approach. I don't think trying to apply GUI programming concepts to web applications is the way forwards.

  2. #127
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    I've played with PRADO too and it is too rigit. Besides, having an ASP.NET clone is not good without good tools, because that is why ASP.NET came into being, for being used by tools.

    Quote Originally Posted by KTottE
    On the first page of results out of those nine million, I found these three frameworks:
    Binary Cloud
    PHP.MVC
    Horde
    Well, since apparently you picked them up from Google, you cannot even testify if they are good for you (or for anyone). Binary Cloud I think it's more like a CMS rather then a framework. And PHP.MVC is a port of Jakarta Struts, which really is a bad ideea, not to mention I think it's dead. I cannot say anything about Horde.

    My definition of a killer framework is a framework popular and good enough to attract people to use it's underlying language and platform. And that's what Zope and Rails are. And that's what PHP lacks. How many on this forum have been attracted to PHP because of PHP.MVC or Horde or Prado or .... ?

  3. #128
    SitePoint Zealot bronze trophy
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    When I started writing PHP, PHP.MVC, Horde and Prado didn't exist. I also started writing Ruby because of the language itself, and it was when I was looking for Ruby resources that I found out about Rails.

    Switching languages because you found a new hyped up framework is pretty pointless IMO. If I want a web application framework I'm not gonna go out and find The Best Framework Ever(tm) regardless of language, I'm gonna go out and find The Most Suitable Framework Available For The Languages I am Capable In.
    If there is a way to overcome the suffering, there is no need to worry; if there is no way to overcome the suffering, there is no point to worry.
    - Shantideva

  4. #129
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    So you wouldn't switch even though another language offered a far superior framework? You'd take second best because it happened to be written in a language you already knew? Switching languages for most programmers shoudln't be that big a deal...its working for a lot of people so far...I did it once when I switched from ASP to PHP (still using ASP doesn't bear thinking about), and I'm happy to do it again if the benefits are there, and with Rails, IMO, they clearly are.

    And thats not to say that PHP is relegated to history for me (ASP was though)...I'm sure I'll still have occasional uses for it.

  5. #130
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTottE
    When I started writing PHP, PHP.MVC, Horde and Prado didn't exist. I also started writing Ruby because of the language itself, and it was when I was looking for Ruby resources that I found out about Rails.

    Switching languages because you found a new hyped up framework is pretty pointless IMO. If I want a web application framework I'm not gonna go out and find The Best Framework Ever(tm) regardless of language, I'm gonna go out and find The Most Suitable Framework Available For The Languages I am Capable In.
    Yes, but that's the way *you*think*. But there are others that look for frameworks that enable them to be more productive. Both Rails and Zope are very good examples. They enable you to be more productive. And what would .NET be without ASP.NET ?

  6. #131
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    Luke Redpath, I wouldn't switch languages on the basis of a framework alone, no.

    Would you switch from Java to C# (or vice-versa) just because the Arbitrary Framework For An Arbitrary Task is available for one but not the other? Assuming, of course, that an equivalent framework exists for the language you currently know. I can tell you right now that I wouldn't. If language X agrees with me more than language Y does, I'll drop Y in favour of X in a heartbeat.

    Let's assume that Django ultimately becomes better than Rails, would you stop using Ruby and go over to Python? Or, hypothetically, someone creates a Rails-clone in PHP that is better than Rails, would you go back to PHP?

    Always trying to use the Best Tool/Framework/Language/Coffee cup Available will leave you hopping around between things based on what is hyped up the most this week.
    If there is a way to overcome the suffering, there is no need to worry; if there is no way to overcome the suffering, there is no point to worry.
    - Shantideva

  7. #132
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTottE
    Switching languages because you found a new hyped up framework is pretty pointless IMO. If I want a web application framework I'm not gonna go out and find The Best Framework Ever(tm) regardless of language, I'm gonna go out and find The Most Suitable Framework Available For The Languages I am Capable In.
    I'm the opposite. I either look for the mythical Best Framework Ever, or I look for the Best Framework Given the Server Platform Work Lets Me Use

  8. #133
    SitePoint Guru Skyblaze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp_funda
    looks like you haven't seen PRADO. Its ASP.NET like framework for PHP5.
    ok then....we can close and lock the thread.....we realized that php5 is professional, can do the same things of ruby/rails, has a framework and over all it is the most widely adopted web language outhere with the highest support.

  9. #134
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTottE
    Luke Redpath, I wouldn't switch languages on the basis of a framework alone, no.

    Would you switch from Java to C# (or vice-versa) just because the Arbitrary Framework For An Arbitrary Task is available for one but not the other? Assuming, of course, that an equivalent framework exists for the language you currently know. I can tell you right now that I wouldn't. If language X agrees with me more than language Y does, I'll drop Y in favour of X in a heartbeat.

    Let's assume that Django ultimately becomes better than Rails, would you stop using Ruby and go over to Python? Or, hypothetically, someone creates a Rails-clone in PHP that is better than Rails, would you go back to PHP?

    Always trying to use the Best Tool/Framework/Language/Coffee cup Available will leave you hopping around between things based on what is hyped up the most this week.
    I wouldn't switch just because of a framework - I'd also have to be unhappy with the set of options available to me in the language I was presently using. Which was the case pre-Rails.

  10. #135
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblaze
    ok then....we can close and lock the thread.....we realized that php5 is professional, can do the same things of ruby/rails, has a framework and over all it is the most widely adopted web language outhere with the highest support.
    I'll assume you were being sarcastic - Rails and PRADO are completely different.

  11. #136
    SitePoint Guru Skyblaze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Redpath
    I'll assume you were being sarcastic - Rails and PRADO are completely different.
    ok so then....find another framework for php that is more like rails and then with the others thing we can close the discussion

  12. #137
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblaze
    ok so then....find another framework for php that is more like rails and then with the others thing we can close the discussion
    CakePHP

    Now I'm not going to close the thread, but let's get back to the original topic. PHP is kind of irrelevant to it.

  13. #138
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblaze
    ok so then....find another framework for php that is more like rails and then with the others thing we can close the discussion
    How about this as a suggestion...think of something useful to contribute to the thread or just say nothing at all. Discussion with you ended several pages back.

  14. #139
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    Back on topic:

    What is Ruby? An excellent object-oriented scripting language.

    Why should you care? Because its powerful, fun to use, and opens up new doors to you, most significantly at this point in time, the Rails framework. But there are lots of other good Ruby libraries and packages as well, many of which can be found here

  15. #140
    SitePoint Guru Skyblaze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Redpath
    Back on topic:

    What is Ruby? An excellent object-oriented scripting language.

    Why should you care? Because its powerful, fun to use, and opens up new doors to you, most significantly at this point in time, the Rails framework. But there are lots of other good Ruby libraries and packages as well, many of which can be found here
    PROMOTIONAL MESSAGE(you forgot).

  16. #141
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy asp_funda's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    And what would .NET be without ASP.NET ?
    Off Topic:

    FYI, ASP.NET is just a subset of the .NET framework, one which expands the reach of .NET to the web. ASP.NET depends on .NET, not vice versa!! There are a lot of .NET programmers who use VB.NET/C# & I've even met some VC++.NET dudes who don't program for the web but for desktop applications!!
    Our lives teach us who we are.
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    Me - Photo Blog - Personal Blog - Dev Blog
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  17. #142
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    @Skyblaze: Could you please stop saying stupid things? How many lines of Ruby-code have you written? So please use Ruby & Ruby on Rails before talking about it.

    Ontopic:

    I will compare Ruby to PHP based on my experience:

    Ruby is focused on OOP, PHP on procedural code. I prefer OOP. Ruby doesn't have a clumsy syntax like:
    PHP Code:
    if($obj->is_something())
    {
       
    $obj->do_something();

    Ruby:
    Code:
    if obj.is_something?
       obj.do_something
    end
    This may look strange at first, but IMO it's cleaner. You don't need semicolons (, no braces ({ and } and ( and )), . instead of ->, and it's common to add a question mark to methods like is_something or has_something => is_something?

    PHP:
    PHP Code:
    for($i 0$i 10$i++)
    {
    print(
    "hi!");

    Ruby:
    Code:
    10.times { print "hi!" }
    And that brings us to readability. The Ruby version actually reads like normal english. PHP is cryptic.

    Just give Ruby a try, and you'll find out it's much easier (so you can focus on the real problem), and much more fun!

  18. #143
    SitePoint Guru Skyblaze's Avatar
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    @Skyblaze: Could you please stop saying stupid things? How many lines of Ruby-code have you written? So please use Ruby & Ruby on Rails before talking about it.
    ok i'll leave this discussion so you can promote your "new" cool/fashioned language. Before leaving i also want to do my promotion: Kevin yank book on php is fantastic.....he presents this fantastic language in a extraordinary manner. I'm learning on it and i can say that php is fantastic and so is kevin's taught.
    Ok i'll leaving

  19. #144
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblaze
    ok i'll leave this discussion so you can promote your "new" cool/fashioned language. Before leaving i also want to do my promotion: Kevin yank book on php is fantastic.....he presents this fantastic language in a extraordinary manner. I'm learning on it and i can say that php is fantastic and so is kevin's taught.
    Ok i'll leaving
    Go away.

  20. #145
    SitePoint Evangelist CapitalWebHost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblaze
    ok i'll leave this discussion so you can promote your "new" cool/fashioned language. Before leaving i also want to do my promotion: Kevin yank book on php is fantastic.....he presents this fantastic language in a extraordinary manner. I'm learning on it and i can say that php is fantastic and so is kevin's taught.
    Ok i'll leaving

    There's a word for people like you, but unfortunately, Sitepoints filters would jsut star it out.

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblaze
    ok i'll leave this discussion so you can promote your "new" cool/fashioned language. Before leaving i also want to do my promotion: Kevin yank book on php is fantastic.....he presents this fantastic language in a extraordinary manner. I'm learning on it and i can say that php is fantastic and so is kevin's taught.
    Ok i'll leaving
    :S you say PHP is better than Ruby while you're still learning PHP, and without having touched Ruby??

    I think it's better if we put a few code-examples here to compare Ruby to other languages. Then we'll be able to make a good comparison.

  22. #147
    eschew sesquipedalians silver trophy sweatje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrir2
    I think it's better if we put a few code-examples here to compare Ruby to other languages. Then we'll be able to make a good comparison.
    PLEAC - Programming Language Examples Alike Cookbook may be worth a look.
    Jason Sweat ZCE - jsweat_php@yahoo.com
    Book: PHP Patterns
    Good Stuff: SimpleTest PHPUnit FireFox ADOdb YUI
    Detestable (adjective): software that isn't testable.

  23. #148
    SitePoint Zealot bronze trophy
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    Fenrir2: The one thing that is missing from Ruby is the Python-esque way of defining sections of code by indentation.

    PHP Code:
    def somemethod(param)
        
    # This is inside the method

    # this is outside the method 
    Lean and mean!
    If there is a way to overcome the suffering, there is no need to worry; if there is no way to overcome the suffering, there is no point to worry.
    - Shantideva

  24. #149
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    I'm not too sure if defining code by indentation is such a good thing, not always anyway. If Ruby relied on indentation, it would make something like ERb very difficult if not impossible to implement.

    I personally think do...end or def...end makes things more readable. Using white space might make things leaner but I think its too lean.

  25. #150
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTottE
    Let's assume that Django ultimately becomes better than Rails, would you stop using Ruby and go over to Python? Or, hypothetically, someone creates a Rails-clone in PHP that is better than Rails, would you go back to PHP?
    It depends how much Django (or CakePHP) is or will be better than Rails. If it is only a little better, it's not worth the cost of learning another language/platform (unless someone actually pays you to learn it).

    Personally I also tried Django (only followed their tutorials). It's good, well very good actually. And it resembles very much Rails although it is not a Rails clone. I don't have much experience in Python / Django but I like Ruby/Rails better simply because I find Ruby more beautifull than Python. Personal preference.

    In our days, in my oppinion, when you learn a language, you really cannot say that the frameworks the platform supporting the language comes with are irrelevant.


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