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  1. #76
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    While RoR might not be the next best thing since sliced bread, I believe that given time, RoR will be seen more and more throughout the web.

    Eventually, another language will out-do RoR and then that language will be better than RoR.

    its merely a cycle that will continue until one day when computers control the world

  2. #77
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    While RoR might not be the next best thing since sliced bread
    It's not?

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Redpath
    It's not?
    Of course not!

    PHP is the next best thing since sliced bread

  4. #79
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jubinrr
    Of course not!

    PHP is the next best thing since sliced bread
    No, peanut butter is.
    You guys are sick trying to eat PHP and Rails. They are not material. Just like The Easter Bunny.

  5. #80
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    Peanut butter does go a lot better with jam then either PHP or Ruby/Rails, I'm sure.

    I think we've gone a bit OT.

  6. #81
    Web developer Carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Redpath
    Peanut butter does go a lot better with jam then either PHP or Ruby/Rails, I'm sure.

    I think we've gone a bit OT.
    No, actually you have demonstrated a point.

    " Why should I care about peanut butter or sliced bread for that matter?"

    Because without them you miss one of the greatest culinary delicacies that America has to offer

    Now just sub out one or two words to answer the riddle of this thread.

  7. #82
    SitePoint Guru Skyblaze's Avatar
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    yesterday was python. Today is ruby. Tomorrow....who knows. But in general people still develop in php for the web. Think of it.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblaze
    But in general people still develop in php for the web
    A lot of the growing applications on the web are written in PHP, and they most likely will be written in PHP for a while to come. However, this is bound to change. I think that Ruby/Ruby on Rails might be a step towards that change.

    I think all the hype behind Ruby on Rails points to it's potential. RoR has great potential to become the most widely used web dev language. However, it all depends on the web developers and how they choose to use the language.

  9. #84
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblaze
    yesterday was python. Today is ruby. Tomorrow....who knows. But in general people still develop in php for the web. Think of it.
    Think of what? What exactly is your point? That anything new should be disregarded because something else exists? Rubbish. And its not Ruby alone that is being pushed at the web (though it can be used in a similar way to PHP), its the Ruby/Rails combination.

    People are using Rails because it is an excellent framework that offers so much more than simple PHP, and because there isn't a framework for PHP that is nearly as good as Rails (in my opinion, and probably many others opinions too, otherwise why would they be using Rails?).

    PHP will probably always be more popular because its not strictly aimed at web professionals, but enthusiasts as well, who probably have little reason to learn something like Rails.

    And can we stop referring to Rails as a language

  10. #85
    SitePoint Guru Skyblaze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Redpath
    Think of what? What exactly is your point? That anything new should be disregarded because something else exists? Rubbish. And its not Ruby alone that is being pushed at the web (though it can be used in a similar way to PHP), its the Ruby/Rails combination.

    People are using Rails because it is an excellent framework that offers so much more than simple PHP, and because there isn't a framework for PHP that is nearly as good as Rails (in my opinion, and probably many others opinions too, otherwise why would they be using Rails?).

    PHP will probably always be more popular because its not strictly aimed at web professionals, but enthusiasts as well, who probably have little reason to learn something like Rails.

    And can we stop referring to Rails as a language

    1) PHP is younger than ruby. PHP was born in 1995.
    2) Stop saying that there are things that you can't do with php that instead you can do with ruby......we know that it isn't true.
    3) PHP is for amateurs? Ahahahaah. That is a very stupid point of view for me. Why php is for amateurs and ruby for professionals? If i must learn PHP or ruby i study in the same way, program in the same way ecc. ecc.

  11. #86
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblaze
    1) PHP is younger than ruby. PHP was born in 1995.
    2) Stop saying that there are things that you can't do with php that instead you can do with ruby......we know that it isn't true.
    3) PHP is for amateurs? Ahahahaah. That is a very stupid point of view for me. Why php is for amateurs and ruby for professionals? If i must learn PHP or ruby i study in the same way, program in the same way ecc. ecc.
    Thanks, but try reading posts properly before you post such a dismissive and ignorant response.

    1) I'm fully aware of that. I didn't say Ruby was new. Rails is though, and its Rails that is being targetted at the web. And I was making a general statement...i.e., something shouldn't be disregarded because it is new or because something else already exists that does the job.

    2) Many of the things that makes Rails possible are because Ruby the language simply can do things at the language level that PHP cannot, specifically much more powerful reflection and the ability to redefine classes at runtime, meta-programming and the ability to create domain-specific languages, and not to mention modules and the power of mixins. This doesn't mean you can get the same end results using PHP but Rails isn't about doing different things to PHP - its about doing them a lot more elegantly and lot more easily.

    Tell me you can write something that works in the same way as ActiveRecord with the same elegance and lack of configuration and I'll call you a liar.

    However, all of that said, where did I even say there are things that you can do in Ruby/Rails that you can't do in PHP in my previous post?

    3) I didn't say PHP was for amateurs at all. I said that PHP isn't targetted specifically at professionals, but is can also be picked up and used by amaterus and hobbyists as well.

    Look, I'll highlight it just to make it easier for you:
    its not strictly aimed at web professionals, but enthusiasts as well
    There are probably billions of lines of PHP code out there and I'd be willing to bet that at least half of them were written by amateurs. That isn't to say PHP isn't a) a professional language and b) cannot be used professionally. However, Rails offers far more value to a professional developer than an amateur/hobbyist, which is why we'll be seeing PHP for a long time to come.

    Seriously, PLEASE READ POSTS PROPERLY.

  12. #87
    SitePoint Guru Skyblaze's Avatar
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    the distincion between these two languages on a amateur/professional basis is ridiculous. I can use php or ruby either in an amateurs way or professional way.

  13. #88
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    @Skyblaze I know your concerns, and do you know I was actually quite a flamer of Ruby 2 or 3 months ago ?
    If you haven't by now, try it and see how it feels. It will not replace PHP, or Java, or ASP, although it may take some share of the market.

    I like it not because with it I am more productive. That's rubish. A programmer is the most productive in the language it knows best. I like it because it's fun to work with. At first when I heard that claim I disconsidered it, I thought it was just hype. But I was wrong. It is really fun to work with Ruby (and Rails).

  14. #89
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblaze
    the distincion between these two languages on a amateur/professional basis is ridiculous. I can use php or ruby either in an amateurs way or professional way.
    For christs sake, you are missing the point entirely. Nowhere was I comparing the languages on an amateur/professional basis. I was simply explaining why PHP will not disappear overnight because it has a solid amateur/hobbyist user base that would have little to no interest in something like Rails which on the whole is aimed more at the professional developer (not that that stops a hobbyist from using it). The distinction between PHP and Rails, in explaining the above, is perfectly valid.

    Do you make a frequent habit out of not reading posts properly or taking things out of context, or do you just get a kick out of it?

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    Well, the vast majority of applications are small to medium ones and that is a big overlap since both Rails and asp.net are suitable for them.
    And PHP is currently a mainstream platform used by big companies. So is Perl and Python. So why shouldn't Ruby be there also ? Scripting languages are just better and cheaper for some tasks.
    Because most companies are cheap. The finance department really doesn't care what language you prefer at most companies. Unless you can give them concrete evidence that it's cheaper to develop for RoR, they'll just ignore you.

    Unfortunately, in most companies, it's the finance people that make the technical decisions.

  16. #91
    SitePoint Guru Skyblaze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Redpath
    For christs sake, you are missing the point entirely. Nowhere was I comparing the languages on an amateur/professional basis. I was simply explaining why PHP will not disappear overnight because it has a solid amateur/hobbyist user base that would have little to no interest in something like Rails which on the whole is aimed more at the professional developer (not that that stops a hobbyist from using it). The distinction between PHP and Rails, in explaining the above, is perfectly valid.

    Do you make a frequent habit out of not reading posts properly or taking things out of context, or do you just get a kick out of it?
    ok but the fact that many hobbyists use it it doesn't mean that it is a language aimed to hobbyists. There are a lot of hobbyistes that use php 'cause it is simple to work with for a beginner to do simple script ecc for example....but then there professionals who knows php in a more advanced manner and that is in every language of the same type ( i mean scripting "easy" languages).

  17. #92
    SitePoint Guru Skyblaze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    @Skyblaze I know your concerns, and do you know I was actually quite a flamer of Ruby 2 or 3 months ago ?
    If you haven't by now, try it and see how it feels. It will not replace PHP, or Java, or ASP, although it may take some share of the market.

    I like it not because with it I am more productive. That's rubish. A programmer is the most productive in the language it knows best. I like it because it's fun to work with. At first when I heard that claim I disconsidered it, I thought it was just hype. But I was wrong. It is really fun to work with Ruby (and Rails).
    right now i don't need to learn it. I'm learning php cause is the standard web language now and i really like it. And i'd want to learn it well rather than learning another language only beacuse it is the fashion of the moment.

  18. #93
    eschew sesquipedalians silver trophy sweatje's Avatar
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    I think there is a point that everyone may be beating around with the amateur/professional arguments.

    I would say it is PHP's ability to be either procedural or OO which is a high point of the low barrier to entry, I assert that most hobbyists start using PHP from a purely procedural approach. OOP is a conceptual hurdle, which many users both professional and amateur make use of, but is in greater demand by the professional element. Ruby can be used in a procedural manner, similar to PHP, but to use Rails, you are introduced into Ruby's OOP model up front and personal. The fact that you must engage in OOP programming immediately may be a reason some posters feel Rails will have less appeal to an amateur audience.

    $0.02 pitched into the fray.
    Jason Sweat ZCE - jsweat_php@yahoo.com
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  19. #94
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblaze
    ok but the fact that many hobbyists use it it doesn't mean that it is a language aimed to hobbyists. There are a lot of hobbyistes that use php 'cause it is simple to work with for a beginner to do simple script ecc for example....but then there professionals who knows php in a more advanced manner and that is in every language of the same type ( i mean scripting "easy" languages).
    I didn't say it was exclusively aimed at hobbyists either. I give up!

  20. #95
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblaze
    And i'd want to learn it well rather than learning another language only beacuse it is the fashion of the moment.
    Don't be so facetious. People aren't learning Ruby or RubyOnRails because its "in fashion". People are learning them because they are a good language/framework.

  21. #96
    SitePoint Enthusiast achang's Avatar
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    I thought Ruby could interact with mysql... I think I saw a mysql-ruby package in synamptic...

  22. #97
    SitePoint Addict Brak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweatje
    Ruby can be used in a procedural manner, similar to PHP, but to use Rails, you are introduced into Ruby's OOP model up front and personal. The fact that you must engage in OOP programming immediately may be a reason some posters feel Rails will have less appeal to an amateur audience.

    Please, let me know how one would use Ruby without using it's OOP nature? It is quite literally impossible to use Ruby without using OO since everything is an object.

    Code:
     a = 15 # 15 is an object
     a = "hello" # hello is an object
    This is what I personally love about ruby, since EVERYTHING is an object, you can do lots of cool things with numbers, words, etc.

    Code:
     15.times{ dothis }
     "hello".gsub(/e/, '!')
    I don't mean to bash on you, but simply point out that it is drastically different than PHP when comparing it's OOP nature. PHP's OO feels tacked on (any seasoned programmer will agree) while Ruby is OO to the core. You cannot escape OO with Ruby.
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  23. #98
    SitePoint Wizard samsm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brak
    Please, let me know how one would use Ruby without using it's OOP nature? It is quite literally impossible to use Ruby without using OO since everything is an object.
    In one sense, yes. But in another, just because you have an object oriented toolset at your disposal, doesn't necessarily mean you are going to be solving problems with a completely OOP style.

    It's like the difference between:
    text.chomp.squeeze(' ').upcase (easy, but kind of procedural)
    and
    text.yell (custom method promotes such OO concepts as abstraction and reusability)
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  24. #99
    eschew sesquipedalians silver trophy sweatje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brak
    Please, let me know how one would use Ruby without using it's OOP nature? It is quite literally impossible to use Ruby without using OO since everything is an object.
    Yes everything is an object, but Ruby has some nice syntactic sugar which talks to the Kernel class;

    Code:
    p 15/3
    looks and feels a lot more procedural than
    Code:
    Kernel.puts( Number.new(15).divide(Number.new(3)) );
    And from someone who has given it more thought than me:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_programming_language
    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia
    Procedural syntax is included, but everything done in Ruby procedurally (that is, outside of the scope of a particular object) is actually done to the Object class. Since this class is parent to every other class, the changes become visible to all classes and objects.

  25. #100
    SitePoint Addict Brak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samsm
    In one sense, yes. But in another, just because you have an object oriented toolset at your disposal, doesn't necessarily mean you are going to be solving problems with a completely OOP style.

    It's like the difference between:
    text.chomp.squeeze(' ').upcase (easy, but kind of procedural)
    and
    text.yell (custom method promotes such OO concepts as abstraction and reusability)
    Perhaps, I suppose what I'm trying to point out here is that Ruby starts as OO and you have to force it to procedural, while PHP starts as procedural and you have to force it to OO. Comparing the use of OO in the two languages cannot be done. It's like asking someone who drives an automatic whether they would consider buying a stick shift next car purchase, and asking a person who drives a stick whether they will buy a stick shift next car purchase.
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