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Thread: PHP's hope for the future?
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Sep 16, 2005, 05:48 #51
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Originally Posted by dagfinn
..but, Dagfinn, lets not make this personal, okay?
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Sep 16, 2005, 05:59 #52
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Originally Posted by dagfinn
Don't be mistaken, I'm going to defend the volounteers for the work they do, not the people who take it upon themselves to smear and rant about the "service" they get (I'm not talking about you with that statement). This is not a vendor/client situation, please understand that.
If you don't have hard facts on the enterprise issue, stop bringing it up. You are just promoting FUD and it isn't even true.
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Sep 16, 2005, 07:17 #53
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PHP5 is a great system, and I don't see it lacking. It will be awhile before its adapted on all host, but PHP has been used for so long I don't think that there is a way around it. All of the good/major web forums are used all over the web, and based on PHP.
I am a bit immature, but I still don't like Ruby on Rails.I do PHP for the little money I have, and Rails may one day destroy it.
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Sep 16, 2005, 07:23 #54
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You do not get support with Open Source. If you use Open Source, and you expect support, then you have got a hard neck to expect so. Really, you have. You get no support using PHP as it is Open Source.
That is proberly half the battle with people complaints in regards to PHP. Sure, there is a bug here and there, and the people who developed PHP to begin with, are by the developers who use PHP (which is Open Source btw) expected to sort things out.
Well folks, the people behind PHP originally are not your support help desk. They support PHP it's self, and in which future direction it goes. They are only obliged to fix bugs, to help developers, etc.
Here they are taking time out to help the PHP cause the best way they can, and here are people slagging off (basically) them off for the lack of support. What support huh? Huh?
You don't get support with Open Source, unless of course your prepared to pay for it. That is the whole -BEEP- meaning of Open Source. God. As to the enterprise arguement, that is basically mute.
The enterprise level companies out there today who have opted to use PHP are more than aware of the current flaws of PHP, and they knowingly use PHP fully aware of these flaws.
Do you actually think that a multi-million dollar company venturing into using PHP would not be aware of these problems huh? What planet are you living on. I could go on a bit more, but I need to calm down first...
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Sep 16, 2005, 10:36 #55
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WOW!
That's all I can say. I am dumbfounded.
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Sep 16, 2005, 12:16 #56
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Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
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Sep 16, 2005, 12:42 #57
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Originally Posted by Sgarissta
Now here is the rub. The devs do fix bugs. The people who seem to be complaining the loudest have amazingly had their bugs fixed -- by the very people they complain about. They seem to be complaining about process. Yet the process can only be improved by people volounteering to actually do the work required. In "the other thread" I asked if different wording for the status labels would help. No one posted a patch that would effect any change. So if the user community is only interested in saying what the volounteers actually doing the work should do and how they should do it -- well, no one who matters is going to listen. If you want hand holding, talk to a vendor who is willing to provide professional support (you may want to contact IBM, for example, since they are now including PHP). Otherwise I'm sure you will find that all FOSS projects are the same in this regard.
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Sep 16, 2005, 12:51 #58
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I see this as a sign that PHP is having growing pains. Very understandable, since three major things are happening at once:
PHP 5 is going from "get it working" mode to "get it working well" mode, with the upcoming 5.1 and subsequent fixes. This is probably taking a lot of core developer time away from doing major work on the 4.x branch, which, frankly, is a dead-end technology. We loved ya, PHP 4, but it's time to move on.
Secondly, PHP is getting noticed more and more at an enterprise level, which is putting a lot of pressure on everyone, I imagine. The ol' days of PHP being a simple scripting language used by some Unix geeks is over. It's just dang big and complicated now, and with complexity comes increased development difficulty.
Thirdly, Ruby on Rails is a phenomenon to be reckoned with. I've researched it quite a bit as I've been learning PHP 5 and enterprise design patterns, and the fact is it's a brilliant framework built with an impressive new language. That being said, I'm a PHP guy, love PHP 5, and am not interested in switching to a new language. I've programmed in VB, Objective C, Java, Python, and a little Perl. PHP is still my favorite language, in spite of its warts. I spend time in friends' houses, but I come home to PHP.What needs to happen if the PHP world wants to compete with Rails is this:
Rally around some core PHP frameworks and libraries and build an awesome community around them. I see PEAR playing an increased role as its code quality improves and it migrates to modern PHP 5 OOP code. I also see the number of viable PHP 5 frameworks mushrooming for a time, then collapsing back down into a small number of complementary and well-supported platforms. Don't forget: Ruby is a relatively new language and Rails somewhat came out of nowhere and captured the PR spotlight because of its commercial backer and its tight, well-designed scope. If Ruby had been around for years in the Web developer world with lots of people creating their own varying frameworks, there wouldn't be a single community rallying around a single product.
Anyway, the bottom line is this: PHP is worthy of love, and I'm willing to cut the internals guys some slack. Maybe one guy here and there is out of line, but that's one guy. PHP is a universe of millions of people trying to do some cool stuff on the Web. And I'm sticking with it.
Jared
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Sep 16, 2005, 12:58 #59
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@Jared: OT, but Ruby has been in development since 1993 with a first release in 1995.
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Sep 16, 2005, 13:24 #60
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@Dr Livingston
I don't always agree with your statements (how could I... I'm not you) but this time you nailed it right one!!!!
Jean-Marc (aka Myrdhrin)
M2i3 - blog - Protect your privacy with Zliki
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Sep 16, 2005, 14:13 #61
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Thirdly, Ruby on Rails is a phenomenon to be reckoned with. I've researched it quite a bit as I've been learning PHP 5 and enterprise design patterns, and the fact is it's a brilliant framework built with an impressive new language.
Every other language has had time to mature, be it Java, Python, PHP or Perl. Ruby is brand new and shinny, but very few people know more than what they've seen in the adverts.
Maybe in a few more years, who knows. You can't predict the future.
Secondly, PHP is getting noticed more and more at an enterprise level, which is putting a lot of pressure on everyone, I imagine.But it's not just due to PHP, but for example the effort from Zend to market PHP as a viable solution to the problems business face.
Maybe one guy here and there is out of line, but that's one guy.
The point is that the attacks are down to frustration. I get frustrated sometimes, we all do, but it's how we handle that frustration. The earlier remark I made about what Marcus had posted in the blog, I feel that Marcus didn't handle that frustration very well.
He should have found another avenue to channel that frustration, and not publically condemn someone. Marcus is meant to be a professional, well that is not the impression that I have at the moment.
If you have a disagreement with someone at work, do you publically belittle them? Of course not, so why do it on-line? There is absolutely no difference to me in that respect.
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Sep 16, 2005, 14:53 #62
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I agree with the general premise that bad attitudes are usually not very productive. But the other side is the reality that this is how the dirty laundry gets aired in open source projects. It's not like this is the first time that PHP has gone off the rails slightly. For many of the reasons mentioned here and probably many others, PHP development has gone a little wobbly recently. PHP5 is not happening nearly as fast as they probably wanted. And PHP5 is like this giant billboard advertising all the flaws in PHP4 and PHP in general.
With the talk of PHP6 before PHP5 as taken off you get the impression that they know that PHP5 is perhaps not what it should have been.
Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
Christopher
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Sep 16, 2005, 15:59 #63
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Originally Posted by jayboots
Yep, you're right -- I guess it's more a matter of mindshare. Ruby as a prominent Web scripting language has only become popular in recent times. I had heard of it a few years ago as a general-purpose desktop app-type language, but didn't hear about its Web prowess until the Rails stuff.
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Sep 16, 2005, 17:26 #64
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Originally Posted by arborint
Originally Posted by arborint
Originally Posted by arborint
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Sep 16, 2005, 20:55 #65
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Originally Posted by jayboots
Originally Posted by jayboots
Originally Posted by jayboots
And I am someone who actively pushes enterprise PHP to big companies. I don't have (much of) a bad attitude. I try not to attack or get personal (ok maybe McGruff every once in a while). I don't like terms like "cowboy programmers." I have defended PHP when unjustly presented in blogs and forums for many years. I also think it is our responsiblity as members to speak our minds when we think something is not as it should be. And if that rises into a chorus then it gets noticed, things hopefully get fixed, and we all move on.
Christopher
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Sep 16, 2005, 21:40 #66
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I don't recall anyone saying that this forum represents the PHP project.
I would imagine that the vast majority of PHP members are adults yes?
I also think it is our responsiblity as members to speak our minds when we think something is not as it should be. And if that rises into a chorus then it gets noticed, things hopefully get fixed, and we all move on.
After this though, if you want me to be completely open and honest, the PHP forums for me, will never be the same again. It's like I can't look some people in the eye, as for a lot of people, I thought highly of them, but maybe that ain't the case now.
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Sep 16, 2005, 22:20 #67
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Originally Posted by JaredWhite
Originally Posted by JaredWhite
Well, about the breaking backwards compatibility issue. Although I hated them for doing this, I really love that they had the courage to do it. Because in the Java land, although there are serious flaws in the platform, nobody wants to break backwards compatibility and fix them because there are too many businesses relying on Java. And a time will come when new PHP versions will not make such drastinc changes, but I'm glad it's not now.
Don't like it ? You can always downgrade to an older version.
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Sep 16, 2005, 23:46 #68
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Originally Posted by arborint
However, it can get so inflamed that it worsens the situation. Let me just point out that it's never just one side's responsibility when that happens.Dagfinn Reiersøl
PHP in Action / Blog / Twitter
"Making the impossible possible, the possible easy,
and the easy elegant" -- Moshe Feldenkrais
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Sep 17, 2005, 00:03 #69
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Originally Posted by dagfinn
I have been proven wrong many times in these forums, but the upside for me is that at the same time I have seen the folly of may ways I have been exposed to new and useful ideas about better ways to do things.Christopher
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Sep 17, 2005, 00:16 #70
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Originally Posted by jayboots
As for rhetoric, you did say "crying like babies". I'll assume they provided an mp3 file, then.Dagfinn Reiersøl
PHP in Action / Blog / Twitter
"Making the impossible possible, the possible easy,
and the easy elegant" -- Moshe Feldenkrais
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Sep 17, 2005, 03:18 #71
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Originally Posted by bonefry
Any idea what the dates were when they made these decisions? It would be a great help in understanding the situation to be able to piont at the archives and say "look there, that's why it happened". (If that is possible, it would be a great vindication of an open development process - you'd never exect to be able to see that sort of detail in a closed source project.)
Without that clarification, I don't see courage, I see internal bugs which the devs can't fix. And then snubbing outsiders when they question their decisions.
Edit:
No, I take that back. After reading the internals list for a while, it does make sense. And the main problems come from writing PHP0.8 code, the best solution then is to not write PHP0.8 code. Bye bye PHP 4 support, I'm going to start migrating/trimming my code today, rather than trying to support 4 & 5 at the same time.
DouglasLast edited by DougBTX; Sep 17, 2005 at 06:20.
Hello World
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Sep 17, 2005, 06:27 #72
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Originally Posted by DougBTX
I believe it referes to the same decision and covers some of the back and forth that happened.
Here is a quote:
Originally Posted by Derick Rethans May 30, 10:03 am
Jason Sweat ZCE - jsweat_php@yahoo.com
Book: PHP Patterns
Good Stuff: SimpleTest PHPUnit FireFox ADOdb YUI
Detestable (adjective): software that isn't testable.
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Sep 17, 2005, 06:52 #73
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Thanks Jason, cheers.
Hello World
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Sep 17, 2005, 07:51 #74
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Originally Posted by bonefry
o What if Zend makes the developing process of ze2 and the coming versions more open? What about a community process in which proposals get released to public and are waiting for submissions, votes etc.? I know there is a community process in the php world, but in my eyes a simple mailing list just doesn't fit this purpose. Take a look at the zend site: News about business related topics, IBM supports PHP, Oracle supports PHP, Zend studio here, enterpise server there. But if you want to know about what's going on on the low level programming you have to fight your way through product descriptions, downloads etc pp.
Do you think it'd be a could idea if zend features a java like community process?
Those questions just came into my mind, so please do not take it as an offense or another php5-sucks topic. I'd like to hear your point of view about it.
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Sep 17, 2005, 09:23 #75
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Originally Posted by siteartwork
(I know many of us cannot handle such complexity, but if enough programmers are dissatisfied, it is possible)
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