SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 113
  1. #51
    SitePoint Addict
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Sutton, Surrey
    Posts
    259
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think it is w-a-a-a-y too soon to talk about PHP 6 until PHP 5 has gained more acceptance.

    I agree with points 1, 2, 4 and 5.

    Point 3 might be useful, but I don't see any major benefits over my own filtering system.

    With point 6 I would only remove stuff from versions that are no longer used. Nobody (with any sense, that is) uses PHP 3 any more, so that can safely go. All the while there are tons of developers using PHP 4 then the deprecated items should be left in to enable a smooth transition.

    With item 8 I would rather see more function aliases instead of less. I would not remove any as they may break existing code, and not breaking BC is MUCH more important than theoretical language purity. Besides which different programmers will have a totally different view on what is pure and what isn't. I would add MORE aliases to counter those arguments of inconsistent function names. For example, all string manipulation functions should begin with "str_".

    As for item 7 (more case-sensitivity) I think this is total CRAP. Having case-sensitive names causes more problems than it solves, so leave it out. I have worked for 30 years with operating systems and programming languages which were totally insensitive to case, and I hate it when all of a sudden it becomes important. Whether something is written in uppercase or lowercase should be irrelevant. Case does not change the meaning of a word in any spoken or written language, so there is no justification for doing so in a programming language.

  2. #52
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Bath, UK
    Posts
    2,498
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Marston
    Case does not change the meaning of a word in any spoken or written language, so there is no justification for doing so in a programming language.
    I think that tony marston is a Heretic. Sure case matters
    Hello World

  3. #53
    SitePoint Evangelist sputza's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    528
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think for PHP 4 support, they should have an extention that can be turned on if you need it. But with a fresh install, there should not be anything older than ver 5. But what do i know anyways...
    Steven Watkins
    Chief Web Ninja
    Code Monkey Interactive
    lowgravity.ca

  4. #54
    Level 8 Chinese guy Archbob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Somewhere in this vast universe
    Posts
    3,741
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think if they don't have backwards compatibility in 6 stretching at least back to four, it will not gain acceptance. Why are we talking about 6 again? 5 isn't even mainstream yet.

  5. #55
    Afraid I can't do that Dave Hal9k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    East Anglia, England.
    Posts
    640
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pointbeing
    I would expect timelines to be in years. Looking at how long PHP5 took, I think you're right when you suggest there's some gun-jumping going on in this thread
    Yes, I was going to change months to years, but decided to leave it in because the ambiguity covers my back. Avoids the: "But Hal! You said PHP 6 wouldn't be out in years, and it's out 11 months later!" as well as the "But Hal! You said PHP 6 would be out in months! It's years!" to which I can reply "Aha, but there are numerous months in a year..." Well look what happened to Debian, I bet a fair few people thought they wouldn't have to wait this long for a Debian 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Marston
    I have worked for 30 years with operating systems and programming languages which were totally insensitive to case...
    Obviously not even one of those 30 years spent on a *nix system then...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Marston
    Case does not change the meaning of a word in any spoken or written language, so there is no justification for doing so in a programming language.
    Programming languages weren't designed to be read by humans. Case sometimes matters for the meaning of a word: like "God" and "Allah" should always be capitalised, lower case would suggest disrespect. Though generally case doesn't matter for meanings, it doesn't explain why I capitalised the "T" at the start of this sentence. It's just convention. Through explicit case developers can make sure other people adhere to their conventions; camel case etc. instead of just using what they want.

  6. #56
    SitePoint Member yosoyminero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    3
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    As far as I see, the best/key three features in Rasmus' list are: input filtering extension (really, really needed), opcode cache and Unicode support.

    Anyway, it's going to take ages until webhosts update to PHP5.

  7. #57
    Non-Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    5,748
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Well, I did make a posting to this thread, but it appears that an administrator has just gone and nuked it :'(

    Must have hit a raw nerve with someone huh? ...

  8. #58
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Bath, UK
    Posts
    2,498
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    Well, I did make a posting to this thread, but it appears that an administrator has just gone and nuked it :'(

    Must have hit a raw nerve with someone huh? ...
    It was basically an insult wasn't it?
    Hello World

  9. #59
    SitePoint Addict n0other's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    290
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I agree with the opinion that it's way too early for v6. I don't even code in PHP 5 , because most of my client's for some reason, prefer PHP 4. Most people look at v5 with a doubt, so I imagine that v6 would be used by geeks and fans only if released too early. Indeed, the new features look nice.

  10. #60
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Bath, UK
    Posts
    2,498
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by n0other
    Most people look at v5 with a doubt, so I imagine that v6 would be used by geeks and fans only if released too early. Indeed, the new features look nice.
    Or, they might say, "Yea, we were right, v5 was a dud. PHP 6 looks like they've gotten it together at last."

    Edit: and besides, we have to show that we've shed our Perl roots by getting to version six before they do!
    Hello World

  11. #61
    SitePoint Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    27
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    >it's way too early for v6

    Can someone explain what a good time would be?
    I do not agree that there should be a time associated with releasing something that may be a benefit.

    If v6 can show some improvements, maybe more people would jump on it. The fact that many people didn't jump on v5 may very well be because those people didn't see any need to do so... I am one of those people.

    This may not be the case with the features introduced in v6.

    Only one way to find out right?
    Wil Moore III, MCP | Integrations Specialist | Senior Consultant
    DigitallySmooth | HotBusinessDirectory

  12. #62
    SitePoint Addict n0other's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    290
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I wasn't talking about suspending improvements, it's about naming. I believe most people are not ready for v6 because of psychological reasons involved, just a few examples:
    "New == unstable";
    "They released v6 so soon after v5, there must be something wrong with v5, why should I believe v6 is different?"

    Those improvements could be as well applied to PHP v5. C'mon, at rates like these we'll have PHP v10 by the end of next year

  13. #63
    SitePoint Addict
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    255
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Casing matters for languages that are compiled on the fly like PHP because they save a considerable amount of processing power. It's the same reason why XML is case sensitive.

  14. #64
    SitePoint Wizard dreamscape's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,080
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    >> It's the same reason why XML is case sensitive.

    What? XML is neither compiled nor is it a programming language, nor does it use any processing power on its own. XML is just a mark-up language.

  15. #65
    SitePoint Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    82
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    With the vast majority of hosts still running PHP4, I think any mention of PHP6 is going to start causing problems.

    I read a great blog post yesterday about there being certain groups of PHP users (developers, hosts, consultants etc...) and how the developers of PHP needs to stay in touch with all the groups and not end up going the way Perl 6 did. I think that if PHP6 becomes a reality before PHP5 is mainstream (whether that be months or years away) then it will start to cause rather large problems.

    If PHP6 is released while PHP5 hasn't become mainstream (but is still fairly popular) OR has only just become mainstream you could end up with developers having to support PHP4, PHP5 and PHP6. While this wouldn't be a problem for developers who only develop scripts for themselves, anyone like myself who is involved in selling or distributing PHP products it's a rather large headache to think about supporting 3 different versions of PHP that to some extent all break backwards compatibility.

    One positive note is that I have noticed a number of larger hosts start to move towards implementing PHP5 across their servers by testing it out on a smaller group of users. Once lots of the bigger hosts move over, itís only a matter of time before the smaller web hosts move as well. However, due to the amount of time (and cost) that goes into major upgrades such as PHP4 -> PHP5 which are prone to break scripts in use by clients, I canít see hosts or their clients being ready to go through that all again with PHP6 anytime soon. I guess it all depends how quickly web hosts upgrade and PHP6 gets released. The sooner hosts upgrade and the longer it takes for PHP6 to appear the less problems there should be.
    Alasdair Stewart
    PHPAudit - Securely License & Distribute your PHP product now!
    21% ionCube encoder discount!

  16. #66
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Bath, UK
    Posts
    2,498
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by tickedon
    I read a great blog post yesterday about there being certain groups of PHP users (developers, hosts, consultants etc...) and how the developers of PHP needs to stay in touch with all the groups and not end up going the way Perl 6 did.
    Unicode support might be big for PHP, but it is no where near as difficult as what they are trying to do for Perl 6. It is really incomparable, one is bringing functionality to PHP which is already proven in other environements, the other is trying to pull off a trick that even Microsoft had difficulty doing.

    Douglas
    Hello World

  17. #67
    SitePoint Addict
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Sutton, Surrey
    Posts
    259
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DougBTX
    I think that tony marston is a Heretic. Sure case matters
    Can you explain exactly WHY case matters? If I have a variable called $account then why should $Account or $ACCOUNT be different? What is the difference between function dostuff(), DoStuff() and doSTUFF()? Case does not change the meaning of a word in any spoken or written language, so why should it change the meaning of a word in a computer language?

    Note that case sensitivity did not exist until some bungling amateurs invented UNIX.

  18. #68
    SitePoint Guru dbevfat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    ljubljana, slovenia
    Posts
    684
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I used to work with Pascal/Delphi a lot, case doesn't matter there, so I'm kind of used to that. I have no real problem with case-sensitivty, but I actually don't see advantage in either way. The only thing that bothers me a bit is that either every construct in language should be cs or none should.

  19. #69
    SitePoint Addict
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Sutton, Surrey
    Posts
    259
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hal9k
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Marston
    I have worked for 30 years with operating systems and programming languages which were totally insensitive to case...
    Obviously not even one of those 30 years spent on a *nix system then...
    Precisely. I have worked on software designed by professionals for professionals, not by amatuers for amateurs. Case sensitivity in software did not exist until UNIX was spewed forth, and that was only because those bungling amateurs did not know what they were doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hal9k
    Programming languages weren't designed to be read by humans.
    Wrong! Programs are designed to to read by humans but executed by computers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hal9k
    Case sometimes matters for the meaning of a word: like "God" and "Allah" should always be capitalised, lower case would suggest disrespect. Though generally case doesn't matter for meanings, it doesn't explain why I capitalised the "T" at the start of this sentence. It's just convention. Through explicit case developers can make sure other people adhere to their conventions; camel case etc. instead of just using what they want.
    You are still missing the point. Conventions on case are irrelevent as the meaning of a word does not change if all you do you is change the case of one or more letters. The fact that some towel-head may be upset if I write "allah" instead of "Allah" is irrelevant - it is obvious to who I am refering. So why can't it be obvious to a piece of software?

  20. #70
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Bath, UK
    Posts
    2,498
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Marston
    Case does not change the meaning of a word in any spoken or written language
    Here's an article about capitalization, note for example that a capital signifies a noun in German. In English, compare "he" (a male) with "He" (a god, or God if you have one in mind).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Marston
    If I have a variable called $account then why should $Account or $ACCOUNT be different?
    Because you've given them different names?
    Hello World

  21. #71
    SitePoint Addict mgkimsal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Posts
    209
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Coupla points

    Capitalization:

    I figured the "he" and "He" would come up, but slightly more to the point might be "mike" vs "Mike" or "rob" vs" "Rob". Yes, context makes the meanings more apparent, but "Rob" is a name and "rob" is a verb. I'm simplifying this of course, but I wanted to throw my 2 cents in.

    PHP Internals:

    I'd wanted to contribute there, but the attitude seems very against 'non-contributors'. It's now a very difficult set of code to contribute some major changes to (at least by one person), but there are definitely some things that need to be addressed still:

    * Someone else mentioned this before - many functions still throw errors/warnings instead of exceptions. Not sure if this should be an ini setting to help backwards compatibility or what, but there's little point in even dealing with exceptions in PHP5 because much of what might 'go wrong' in code can't be caught.

    * Type hinting - this speaks to #1 above, but seems fairly not well thought out. This may be (certainly is?) a result of being such a dynamically-typed language. What I remember of PHP5 is that sending the wrong object type to a method which uses type hinting will simply cause a fatal error. Example:

    PHP Code:
    <?
      
    class foo {  }
      class 
    bar {  }
      class 
    test 
          function 
    moo(foo $foo) { }
      }
      
    $x = new bar;
      
    $y = new test;
      
    $y->moo($x);
      
    ?>
    So how useful is type hinting if I can't catch an exception? Same question goes for the runtime value of private/public/protected distinctions. Given the dynamic goodness of PHP, having PHP continue to just throw FATAL ERRORs makes the PHP5 new features far less than useful for most people (just IMO of course)

    There are other issues that people have beat to death already - I won't continue on this. But it's things like this that make moving to PHP5 of little value for people.
    Michael Kimsal
    =============================
    groovymag.com - for groovy/grails developers
    jsmag.com - for javascript developers

  22. #72
    SitePoint Addict n0other's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    290
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Marston
    Precisely. I have worked on software designed by professionals for professionals, not by amatuers for amateurs. Case sensitivity in software did not exist until UNIX was spewed forth, and that was only because those bungling amateurs did not know what they were doing.
    It's not very nice of you to bash *nix in a webdeveloper site, you should try stating your arguments in a more suitable place.

  23. #73
    Non-Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    5,748
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It was basically an insult wasn't it?
    Well, no it wasn't actually, it was meant to be humerous in the context of a number of threads that were closed down due to in part or in whole, to T Marston. Going by the postings in those threads in question, the impression I was left with, was that he wasn't popular around these parts.

    But in saying that, everyone is welcome on these forums I'd like to think? That is so great about Site Point, more so the PHP forums...

    If I wanted to insult the man I'd have done so, privately, then at least saving any embarassment yes? But there is no need for me to be insulting anyways.

    Personally there isn't a case for case sensitivity as at the end of the day, you usually have an organisational standard to follow in one form or another. Wether it makes a difference to the language in it's self is academic, it's not here or there

  24. #74
    SitePoint Addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    274
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You are still missing the point. Conventions on case are irrelevent as the meaning of a word does not change if all you do you is change the case of one or more letters. The fact that some towel-head may be upset if I write "allah" instead of "Allah" is irrelevant - it is obvious to who I am refering. So why can't it be obvious to a piece of software?
    Capitalisation makes a difference. God and god are not the same thing. Capitalisation of "God" refers strictly to the Christian spook, whilst "god" can refer to any spook.

    It is the difference between "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse" and "I helped my uncle jack off a horse".

  25. #75
    SitePoint Wizard dreamscape's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,080
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hal9k
    Programming languages weren't designed to be read by humans.
    uh... so who the hell is supposed to do the programming then?


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •