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  1. #126
    Making a better wheel silver trophy DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Plebius
    Something becomes a human being when it takes its first breath.
    so is someone that's on a respirator no longer a human being because they're not taking breaths?

  2. #127
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Saz249

    So what if a child is still born and never takes it's first breath? Would you then say that baby wasn't a human being?
    Not if its dead.

    Would you say an aborted embryo is a human being?

    After I die, I won't be a human being.

    Also, that was an elaboration on my earlier post that it isn't a human being until it's born.

    DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

    so is someone that's on a respirator no longer a human being because they're not taking breaths?
    They are taking breaths. Anyway, I do believe I said "first" breath. Any subsequent breaths, or lack thereof are irrelevant. Otherwise, I wouldn't be a human being every time I hold my breath, which is a lot. Of course, I guess I might not be a human being anyway since I'm pro-choice, right?

  3. #128
    Anyone seen my cypher? OneChance's Avatar
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    With the world as overpopulated as it already is, I don't see a problem with abortion. Hell, I've seen some kids-from-hell that should have been aborted.

  4. #129
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    Originally posted by delemtri
    Yes, but how do you decide on those moral standards? How can you logically say it's wrong to kill a human? It's a hard question.
    "I don't kill others because I don't want them to kill me." "If I would kill people I couldn't ask them not to kill me." I think that this is the simple idea on which the laws were based in the beginning. After a while this way of thinking affected our morals and now we simply feel that killing is wrong without knowing how to explain it. (Sorry, my English sucks today... )

  5. #130
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Plebius
    Not if its dead.

    Would you say an aborted embryo is a human being?
    Yes I would.
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
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  6. #131
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Are you sure?

  7. #132
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Plebius
    Are you sure?
    Yes I'm sure. But then, as I've said before, my feelings towards abortion are probably swayed by the fact that I had a miscarriage prior to falling pregnant with my eldest child. I may have only been 2 months into the pregnancy, but as far as I'm concerned I lost a baby that day, not just a developing fetus.
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
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  8. #133
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    How many of you pro-lifers are pro death penalty? (Specifically aimed at US residents here.)

  9. #134
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by jackiemcghee
    How many of you pro-lifers are pro death penalty? (Specifically aimed at US residents here.)
    Totally different ball game. If somebody has been put on death row it's because they've been found guilty of commiting a heinous act. An unborn child is pure innocence. How can you compare the two?

    That said, I'm not sure I agree with the death penalty anyway. I'd much rather see the killer locked up in a 6ftx6ft cell and be deprived of life that way - where they have everyday to think about it!
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
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  10. #135
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    The tenor of the argument has been that taking life is murder and you aren't taking false convictions into account. Can you assure me that no innocent (to use your word) and falsley convicted people have died?

    You can't have it both ways.
    Last edited by jackiemcghee; Jul 22, 2001 at 05:40.

  11. #136
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    Well, I believe that such children, that never have the chance to hear the Word of God, are likely saved as a result...
    What about original sin, Chris? If you can't get into heaven without accepting Jesus (not my rules) then how does your point stand up?

  12. #137
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by jackiemcghee
    The tenor of the argument has been that taking life is murder and you aren't taking false convictions into account. Can you assure me that no innocent (to use your word) and falsley convicted people have died?

    You can't have it both ways.
    Point 1 - You didn't ask if the death penalty is also murder. You asked if Pro-Lifer's were also Pro-Death Penalty, which is the question I answered.

    Point 2 - At no point did I say that executing somebody wasn't murder, so don't accuse me of wanting things both ways.
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
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    Don't mind me, I'm having a BLONDE moment!

  13. #138
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by jackiemcghee

    What about original sin, Chris? If you can't get into heaven without accepting Jesus (not my rules) then how does your point stand up?
    The point holds up just fine, because it is absolutely impossible for a child that young to comprehend God. It just cannot happen.

    As for the death penalty: we don't have to have it both ways. If someone is falsely convicted...well, that's a flaw in the judicial system, and not a flaw with the death penalty.

    Now, leaving the actual definition of murder aside, I think of it as a WRONGFUL killing, basically. This may not match with the actual definition of the word, but, to me, killing in self defense is not murder...nor is simply fighting in a war. Neither is the death penalty.

    Plebius, I really don't like your reasoning here. A child that is born premature and takes a breath before dying is a human, but a child that is born premature and falls just short of breathing once is no more than an animal?

  14. #139
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    I am a Muslim and we believe that Abortion is a murder. On the day of Judgement the baby will be asked, why he/she was killed.

    Same goes for people who used to burry their daughters alive in the past fearing of hunger.

  15. #140
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    The point holds up just fine, because it is absolutely impossible for a child that young to comprehend God. It just cannot happen.
    But original sin means that the child has sinned against god merely by being conceived. Your contention is that as soon as the embryo is created, it is human, therefore it is in a state of sin (thanks, Adam and Eve). If it is a sinner and hasn't accepted Jesus, then how can it get to heaven? If it can get to heaven, why can't Ghandi?


    As for the death penalty: we don't have to have it both ways. If someone is falsely convicted...well, that's a flaw in the judicial system, and not a flaw with the death penalty.
    So people have to die even if they are innocent in order for you to feel better about your judicial system? Very Christian. If people want the death penalty, then I think it is up to them and them alone to take the life of the person accused. I wonder how many could handle that.


    Now, leaving the actual definition of murder aside, I think of it as a WRONGFUL killing, basically. This may not match with the actual definition of the word, but, to me, killing in self defense is not murder...nor is simply fighting in a war. Neither is the death penalty.
    You seem to just discount definitions when they don't suit your positon, Chris. It doesn't do a lot for the credibility of your argument.

  16. #141
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    But original sin means that the child has sinned against god merely by being conceived. Your contention is that as soon as the embryo is created, it is human, therefore it is in a state of sin (thanks, Adam and Eve). If it is a sinner and hasn't accepted Jesus, then how can it get to heaven? If it can get to heaven, why can't Ghandi?
    I'm saying that despite original sin, the child is 100% helpless. They are not even capable of believing, and as such, I believe that The Lord accepts them into Heaven. I'm not going to pretend this is a clear cut issue.

    So people have to die even if they are innocent in order for you to feel better about your judicial system? Very Christian. If people want the death penalty, then I think it is up to them and them alone to take the life of the person accused. I wonder how many could handle that.
    I wonder as well. Feel better? Uh, no. People have to die because they felt the need to kill someone for no good reason. My point is that anyone being convicted wrongfully is a fault that lies with the court that convicted them. If you're wondering about the level of proof needed, personally I'd have nothing against DNA evidence (or something similar) being required for such an execution.

    Besides: why is the line drawn at death? Should we be more lenient in other ways as well, because some people will surely be convicted wrongfully? For some, time in prison can be nearly as hurtful as death.

    Oh, and my beliefs on the death penalty are perfectly consistent with Christianity.

    You seem to just discount definitions when they don't suit your positon, Chris. It doesn't do a lot for the credibility of your argument.
    Not at all Jackie. I didn't discount any definition at all, I simply told you what the word "murder" means to me. How you take this as me "discounting" the definition of a word is a mystery to me.

  17. #142
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    Not at all Jackie. I didn't discount any definition at all, I simply told you what the word "murder" means to me. How you take this as me "discounting" the definition of a word is a mystery to me.
    you said:
    Now, leaving the actual definition of murder aside...
    That's what I meant. And you did it with the definition of birth also.

    What a word means to you is shaky ground in an argument about morals because you are saying that your subjective view has more priority over the consensus. Why should you have that position? Society's mores are based on consensus and that's how definitions are arrived at. You are merely casting the definition aside because you don't happen to agree with it.

    But I'm curious what the percentage of innocent people put to death is acceptable to you. How many are worth killing? 5%? 15%?

  18. #143
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    That's what I meant. And you did it with the definition of birth also.

    What a word means to you is shaky ground in an argument about morals because you are saying that your subjective view has more priority over the consensus. Why should you have that position? Society's mores are based on consensus and that's how definitions are arrived at. You are merely casting the definition aside because you don't happen to agree with it.


    I'm sorry, but that's nowhere near correct. I never "cast a definition aside", I simply stated what it means to me, and what I think of the word. Please explain to me how telling you what a word implies to me is casting it aside, and ignoring it, or anything of the sort.

    I also did no such thing with the definition of birth. Jason was essentially playing dumb and totally dodged the question at hand, despite being asked repeatedly. I asked him what he meant by birth, he told me, and then I asked him why birth was an acceptable delimiter. He did not answer this. Once again, I'd like to know why this means I'm "casting the defintion of birth aside."

    No percentage of innocent people being put to death is acceptable Jackie. I never said any of them were acceptable...they are simply a seperate issue, IMO. But then again, we're not talking about, necessarily, how the court handles things.

  19. #144
    SitePoint Wizard Aes's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Saz249
    That said, I'm not sure I agree with the death penalty anyway. I'd much rather see the killer locked up in a 6ftx6ft cell and be deprived of life that way - where they have everyday to think about it!
    .
    There's only one stipulation there Saz. Doing that would qualify is cruel and unusual punishment. I know, it's ********, but that's how great the U.S. legal system is 'nowadays! Same goes for the "eye for an eye" scheme. Everything's cruel and unusual and aimed at making the criminals out there comfortable before they die (or whatever). It's like rewarding someone for commiting a murder....
    Colin Anderson
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    sense enough to be lazy.

  20. #145
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Aes
    .
    There's only one stipulation there Saz. Doing that would qualify is cruel and unusual punishment. I know, it's ********, but that's how great the U.S. legal system is 'nowadays! Same goes for the "eye for an eye" scheme. Everything's cruel and unusual and aimed at making the criminals out there comfortable before they die (or whatever). It's like rewarding someone for commiting a murder....
    I know it's cruel - that's the whole idea! (Damn I can be a real b1tch at times!)

    Seriously though, I think there are too many 'do-gooders' out there. It's like the criminals are being seen as victims themselves. Anyway, that's a totally different topic and not something I want to get involved in - especially with events that have gone on in the UK recently regarding two 18 yr old lads and the murder of a 2 yr old boy 8 years ago. I'm gonna get way to wound up if I start on that one!!
    Last edited by Saz249; Jul 22, 2001 at 12:37.
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
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  21. #146
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    "An eye for an eye leaves two men blind." - Gandhi

  22. #147
    SitePoint Wizard Aes's Avatar
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    Saz:
    You're not alone I guess. I'm sure there are many out there (I'm one of them) who have the same viewpoint as you do. And it does seem like the criminals are being treated as victims themselves sometimes....
    I'll get off the topic now.
    ::sigh::
    Last edited by Aes; Jul 22, 2001 at 12:48.
    Colin Anderson
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  23. #148
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    Now, leaving the actual definition of murder aside...

  24. #149
    SitePoint Wizard Aes's Avatar
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    Actually delemtri, the quote reads:

    "An eye for an eye only results in leaving the whole world blind."

    But I'm not trying to be picky or anything....
    Colin Anderson
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    sense enough to be lazy.

  25. #150
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Yes, so I can say what I think of the word. We'd all be pretty naive if we did not recognize that words have implications apart from their meanings.

    I also fail to see how I did anything of the sort with the word "birth" -- I'd think anyone who read those posts in any sort of detail would see, quite clearly, that the question I was asking was not being answered.

    Also, keep in mind Jackie that you basically accused me of stating that my view of a word was more important than the consensus. This is not true at all. You also accused me of saying what I said because I didn't agree with it. That is no true at all...

    ...I have no problem with the definition of "murder", but I do think it is misleading in certain situations...that's all. You said that I discount things that do not match with my beliefs...that's not true either. I think, however, that more specific words are needed at times.


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