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  1. #76
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    I think he mean't a resident of a foster home?

  2. #77
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Honestly, I don't really care if my mother were to endure trouble by giving birth to me. She made her choice, so why should I die because of it? Shooting a violent murdered may cause their family a lot of grief, but it needs to be done.

    Anyway, I want to come back to two points:

    1 - Why is it that the man (who had as much to do with the pregnancy as the womain, basically) is shut out, and usually not given any say in things like this? I'm not talking about the jerks who try to imitidate their companions into abortion, but rather, the ones who don't like the idea, and who have no effect. People in this very thread seem to be talking like this, and it's very upsetting.

    2 - When does life begin? Simply question. Either you have a good ground to start from, or not. If you don't, then I don't see how you support abortion.

  3. #78
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Yes, he does...I was using an analogy.

  4. #79
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Here-here to point 1.

    My ex said if she got pregnant she would terminate - hence, she is now my ex.

  5. #80
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Chris, Z7...

    I totally agree. It takes 2 to tango, so they say. It may be the woman who carries the baby, but it's the responsibility of both parents..........and that should include any decisions to either terminate the pregnancy or put the baby up for adoption.
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
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  6. #81
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish

    1 - Why is it that the man (who had as much to do with the pregnancy as the womain, basically) is shut out, and usually not given any say in things like this? I'm not talking about the jerks who try to imitidate their companions into abortion, but rather, the ones who don't like the idea, and who have no effect. People in this very thread seem to be talking like this, and it's very upsetting.

    2 - When does life begin? Simply question. Either you have a good ground to start from, or not. If you don't, then I don't see how you support abortion.
    1. I agree with you - it's unfair that the childs father isn't given a say in this matter. But that's mainly because it isn't right to force a woman to give birth. If you would like to know how it feels stick an umbrella up you a-- (sorry), open it and pull it out. I wouldn't want to force any woman to go through this if she doesn't chooses to.

    I belive that our soul is reborn until we are a part of the universe (whatever that means). This is my interpretation of eternal life mentioned in the Bible. That means that an aborted child is not being robbed of a chance to experience life forever. The soul will return in another shape. (Of course that isn't a good reason for someone else to kill people...)

  7. #82
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    I *personally* reckon the soul of the unborn child goes straight to heaven.

    It's a shame that their only experience of life is a few weeks in a warm cozy place followed by having their skull-crushed and/or being ripped from the womb by a glorified vacuum cleaner.

  8. #83
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    Define "heaven" please.

  9. #84
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Well, I believe that such children, that never have the chance to hear the Word of God, are likely saved as a result, but they still deserve to live through life. You don't see me killing myself to try to get to the afterlife faster.

    As for the choice: I say a woman chooses the umbrella (ouch...just thinking of it it makes me cringe) when she has sex. I guess in that capacity, men ought to be responsible enough to remind them of that: "this may lead to a child."

    I dunno...the whole thing makes me tired.

  10. #85
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    That's a biggy when I am on a deadline!
    Breifly - it will be more fantastic than any of us can imagine.
    No more tears, no more pain.

    Think of sexual climax as a brief taster!

  11. #86
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Marina, though it can be painful, I wouldn't quite describe birth the way you did! Geez, that's enough to put any woman off the idea. Plus the fact, there are many ways to avoid such pain nowadays - epidural, caesarean section, good ol' gas 'n' air (I had that - great stuff. Made me feel high as a kite!). At the end of the day, if a woman can't bare the thought of having a child and doesn't want to abstain from sex altogether, she should go and get her tubes tied!
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
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  12. #87
    Xbox why have you forsaken me? moospot's Avatar
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    I will say that an unwanted child does not deserve the treatment he/she will endure by living on this planet. Is abortion murder? That depends, IMO. If its still in the zygote stage, a bunch of cells clumped together, then I dont think so. Once the fetus evolves (around 5 months, I think) then it is a baby and can survive. All the vital organs are present, the heart is beating and all the baby has to do is grow for the duration of the pregnancy.

    I believe in pro-choice and I feel that a person shouldn't be forced into adopting a system of rules that go against their beliefs because another group thinks its right. If we do outlaw abortion, they are still going to happen anyway. Why not keep it safe and in the hands of professionals?

  13. #88
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    Saz, I know that giving birth is less painful for some women. Still I don't think it's right to force anybody to do it.

  14. #89
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Yeah, well put Saz. I don't agree with any Catholic who is against birth control. Sex is most definintely here to yield offspring, but it's also a joy to be experienced by a married couple, and as such, I see nothing wrong with birth control. Just wanted to say that.

    Oh, and on the issue of heaven: I really can't describe it...even to myself. No one knows when it will happen, or what it will be like. I think it will be a pleasant place, though. And no, we won't eat what we want and play video games all day...I think of it as a much more sophisticated joy, where we have the opportunity to converse with other believers before us (there have been some very famous ones, of course), and study things in general.

    And no: we will not have wings, carry harps, and sit in the clouds eating cream cheese all day.

  15. #90
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Marina
    Saz, I know that giving birth is less painful for some women. Still I don't think it's right to force anybody to do it.
    That's precisely my point, Marina. If the only reason a woman is contemplating abortion is because she can't bare the thought of giving birth, then she shouldn't put herself in a position where she can get pregnant in the first place.
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
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  16. #91
    e=2.718281828459045235360 HyperBaseball's Avatar
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    Wow. A lot of posts. Maybe I should have just stayed on last night to wait to reply... oh well, sleep is more important.

    ...but of course, a woman has the right to decide what happens to the body of the child? I'm sorry, but I am 100% fed up with these slogans. If you want to talk about abortion, then go ahead, but saying things like "a woman's right to choose" and "it's their body" is no better than "four legs good, two legs bad" -- it's some mantra people chant over and over that doesn't get us any farther along than we were beforehand.


    Maybe you're missing the point here, TWT, but there is no body to the child, it's a fetus! It isn't a child! As for the slogans, what's the difference between "a woman's right to choose" and "know jesus, know peace, no jesus, no peace"? How does that move society along? That doesn't make me want to go out and convert. I couldn't say for a fact, but I'm sure you've used that before or something similar, being all "holy" and all.

    You're comparing a fully grown creature to a creature that is still growing. Why is it funny? Because humans are the only species to give a flying hoot about any other species on this planet.


    Do you have a dog? A cat? I have a dog, he gives a "hoot" about me. The main point of my analogy, which I'm getting to right now, is that the difference between humans and other species is the ability to reason. Does a fetus have the ability to reason? It chooses what it wants to do when? That's exactly why I compared it to an ant. It doesn't have that ability! The mother and father make all decisions concerning it-- whether to feed it (and the mother in turn), whether to smoke while pregnant, and whether to abort it!

    Give me a break man. That's so irrelevant it's nearly comical. They are being robbed of life. They have one shot at life, and they're being robbed of it. How's this for an analogy: don't be upset if someone robs you on the street. They are not to blame, because someone else would have surely robbed you later, so the person who actually did rob you isn't at fault.


    No, you give me a break. How are they being robbed of life? They don't have life! You can't steal my wallet if I don't have a wallet. As for your analogy, yeah it pretty much sucks, and it isn't even close to what I said. Maybe you should re-read it.

    As for robbing fetuses of all that stuff-- whose to say that they will make it that far? How do you know that they won't die of disease when they're six, or get hit by a drunk driver when they're on their way out of the hospital?


    What I said was "How do you know that they won't..." not "It's ultimately determined that..." I didn't say it would happen, I said that it might. There's always a chance of something happening. No one can be 100% sure that something is going to happen, except death. Everyone dies. You just don't know when and where.

    Oh, and here's something some of you know about me, and some of you do not: my parents could hardly afford me when I was born. I am so happy to be alive, though, despite having lived in poverty as a young child.


    It's good to know that your family came out of poverty. It's a tough thing to do. However, if, for example, your parents had aborted you, it really wouldn't matter what you're saying about your happiness right now, because you wouldn't be alive. It's good to know that you're happy, but if you had never lived, you wouldn't know otherwise.

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Also, how would you like it if strangers told you what to do with your body (as long as the fetus is in yopu, it's a part of you, not a separate individual), based only on THEIR beliefs and not yours ?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------


    Yeah, don't you just hate that? Though it's even worse when you're still formulating inside your mother's stomach and you don't even have the chance to argue with them about it. You're dead, because they don't want to deal with you. End of story. No jury, no negotiating, no nothing. You have no say in whether or not you "survive" until birth.


    I don't see how you are supporting your point here-- basically what you're saying (that others shouldn't tell you what to do with your body) is that the woman has the right to decide. How could you possibly argue with them at all, even if given the chance? You don't have any ability to reason, you can't decide what is best for you at the fetus stage, and you don't have any say. What, you're gonna like pop-out and say "Please don't abort me!" Yeah, right. And abortion is not always because the parents don't want to deal with you. If giving birth will kill the mother (and the baby as well, in some cases), then abortion is a smart choice.

    Think about this: we'll send in dozens and dozens of soldiers on rescue missions to save just one man...why? Because we recognize that life is important.
    No, that really doesn't happen... unless the man is the last one in his family, this rarely happens. There are still some POWs left from Vietnam.

    Originally Posted by Shin Ma
    I'd rather address the issue of these teens being pregnant first place. Abortion would be much less of a problem if young people were educated about sex & morals
    A lot are. A lot of kids are just stupid and take risks that they shouldn't, like not using protection or ... some other method (probably not appropriate to say here). But, as one poster already mentioned (forget who, sorry), sometimes protection doesn't work.

    Originally Posted by TWTCommish
    I can't tell if that's a joke or not, but I've never been to Russia, and yet I'd rather be there than dead.
    How can you say you'd rather be in Russia then dead, especially if you've never been there? Sure, if you lived in a nice house with a T1 line and butlers, but I've known at least a half dozen people emigrate from Russia and the former Soviet Union because of the hardships there. You really think that you could go from living fairly nicely with a decent home and family to almost nothing? Now, given that not everyone in Russia is dirt poor, but you could honestly drop down to the poverty level after being higher up? I know I sure couldn't.

    Chris, I think that you're a real bright guy, and have a lot of good ideas and skills, but you're too sheltered. I know that you are home schooled, and maybe that's where the problem is. I know that where I went to high school, it wasn't all that out of the ordinary to hear someone having a baby problem or seeing a girl carry a child around school. And that's a sad situation when that has to happen to teenagers. Not every single one of them made bright decisions, but some had no other choice.

    Go out and experience the world for what it is.
    Last edited by HyperBaseball; Jul 20, 2001 at 08:16.
    Jason Unger is me.
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  17. #92
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Originally posted by HyperBaseball
    Do you have a dog? A cat? I have a dog, he gives a "hoot" about me. The main point of my analogy, which I'm getting to right now, is that the difference between humans and other species is the ability to reason. Does a fetus have the ability to reason? It chooses what it wants to do when? That's exactly why I compared it to an ant. It doesn't have that ability! The mother and father make all decisions concerning it-- whether to feed it (and the mother in turn), whether to smoke while pregnant, and whether to abort it!
    I weep for the future.

  18. #93
    e=2.718281828459045235360 HyperBaseball's Avatar
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    Originally posted by z7

    I weep for the future.
    Ummm, righht. Try the hot pockets, they're breathtaking...
    Jason Unger is me.
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  19. #94
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Maybe you're missing the point here, TWT, but there is no body to the child, it's a fetus! It isn't a child! As for the slogans, what's the difference between "a woman's right to choose" and "know jesus, know peace, no jesus, no peace"? How does that move society along? That doesn't make me want to go out and convert. I couldn't say for a fact, but I'm sure you've used that before or something similar, being all "holy" and all.
    First of all, I don't appreciate the sarcasm. I don't claim to be Holy. I am not Holy. I try to be, but I fail. And no, I don't use those slogans, and even if I did, if someone told me that they weren't helping, I'd probably agree.


    Do you have a dog? A cat? I have a dog, he gives a "hoot" about me. The main point of my analogy, which I'm getting to right now, is that the difference between humans and other species is the ability to reason. Does a fetus have the ability to reason? It chooses what it wants to do when? That's exactly why I compared it to an ant. It doesn't have that ability! The mother and father make all decisions concerning it-- whether to feed it (and the mother in turn), whether to smoke while pregnant, and whether to abort it!
    Once again Jason, you're comparing a grown creature to a creature still growing.


    No, you give me a break. How are they being robbed of life? They don't have life! You can't steal my wallet if I don't have a wallet. As for your analogy, yeah it pretty much sucks, and it isn't even close to what I said. Maybe you should re-read it.
    I read it quite carefully. They don't have life? Oh, ok: then tell me when life begins. Do you know? Do you have any reasonable second in time set at all?


    What I said was "How do you know that they won't..." not "It's ultimately determined that..." I didn't say it would happen, I said that it might. There's always a chance of something happening. No one can be 100% sure that something is going to happen, except death. Everyone dies. You just don't know when and where.
    Yes, I know, and I didn't say you said it WOULD happen either. What I am saying is that that point was, well, pointless (pardon the pun). Whether or not they're killed elsewhere does not matter.


    It's good to know that your family came out of poverty. It's a tough thing to do. However, if, for example, your parents had aborted you, it really wouldn't matter what you're saying about your happiness right now, because you wouldn't be alive. It's good to know that you're happy, but if you had never lived, you wouldn't know otherwise.
    Well, personally I think I would see all this from above. The point of that statement was to try to illustrate how poverty is not necessarily a good reason to prevent the child's birth.


    I don't see how you are supporting your point here-- basically what you're saying (that others shouldn't tell you what to do with your body) is that the woman has the right to decide. How could you possibly argue with them at all, even if given the chance? You don't have any ability to reason, you can't decide what is best for you at the fetus stage, and you don't have any say. What, you're gonna like pop-out and say "Please don't abort me!" Yeah, right. And abortion is not always because the parents don't want to deal with you. If giving birth will kill the mother (and the baby as well, in some cases), then abortion is a smart choice.
    I'm supporting my point by saying that while you don't like the mother being told what to do "with her body", you're fine with the mother taking what body the child has and snuffing the life out of that. What's even worse is that the fetus has no say. As for the mother being in danger: I really don't know what to think of that, and I'm not concerned with it right now. I'm more concerned with the millions of children who are killed out of irresponsibility.


    No, that really doesn't happen... unless the man is the last one in his family, this rarely happens. There are still some POWs left from Vietnam.
    Uh, it doesn't? For the sake of argument, I'll say you're right: a different analogy then. We'll give in a terrorist's demands because of one hostage.


    How can you say you'd rather be in Russia then dead, especially if you've never been there? Sure, if you lived in a nice house with a T1 line and butlers, but I've known at least a half dozen people emigrate from Russia and the former Soviet Union because of the hardships there. You really think that you could go from living fairly nicely with a decent home and family to almost nothing? Now, given that not everyone in Russia is dirt poor, but you could honestly drop down to the poverty level after being higher up? I know I sure couldn't.
    Yes, I could. I'd rather live in poverty than be dead. I'll tell you this much: I'm glad to have had the chance at life. I suppose we're going to deny most of these children life because one out of every few 10,000 or so (I don't have actual stats, so don't take it literally) might end up hating life?


    Chris, I think that you're a real bright guy, and have a lot of good ideas and skills, but you're too sheltered. I know that you are home schooled, and maybe that's where the problem is. I know that where I went to high school, it wasn't all that out of the ordinary to hear someone having a baby problem or seeing a girl carry a child around school. And that's a sad situation when that has to happen to teenagers. Not every single one of them made bright decisions, but some had no other choice.
    Alright, you're a bit over the line here Jason. If you have to resort to making assumptions like that, then maybe you should focus more on the other aspects of your argument. I am AMAZINGLY unsheltered for the most part. Example: in this family, children are taught a little bit about sex at only a few years old, and are taught the basics of it (to a degree) at 6 or 7 most of the time.

    Aside from that, I work constantly and am hoping to move out sometime next year, around the time I've just turned 18. I am not a sheltered person, despite being homeschooled. Sorry.

    No other choice? Oh, I guess all of the adoption agencies rejected their child, eh?

    The most important points:
    • When does life begin? If you don't know, then you surely cannot justify taking the chance that abortion presents. Plants are considered alive. They grow. When conception begins, life begins...things start to grow.
    • How on EARTH can you say a man has no place in all this? Her body? The child she carries is half hers, and half his. Yes, she has a more painful role, but that cannot be helped, and it doesn't make the father any less of a parent than the mother. Let's also not forget that plenty of women enjoy childbirth in spite of it's hardships. My mom/stepmom both tell me it's a wonderful feeling.
    • "Not every single one of them made bright decisions, but some had no other choice." No other choice but to have sex? No other choice but to kill the child rather than accept responsibility, and give it to someone who's willing to care for it? I don't buy that. I'm quite disturbed that all the focus is on the teenagers who screwed up. Do I feel sorry for them? Yes, sometimes I do, but they CHOSE their path.

  20. #95
    e=2.718281828459045235360 HyperBaseball's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    Once again Jason, you're comparing a grown creature to a creature still growing.


    What does that have to do with anything? You say that a fetus is alive, right? Well the ants and dogs and cats are alive too. The point is that it can't reason, and therefore can't possibly have any say in the decision. Would you trust a one year old baby to tell you if it was safe to cross the street?

    I read it quite carefully. They don't have life? Oh, ok: then tell me when life begins. Do you know? Do you have any reasonable second in time set at all?


    Yes, life begins at birth. Until then, nothing serves any purpose.

    Whether or not they're killed elsewhere does not matter.


    You don't think that a woman would be upset if she and her newborn baby are in a car accident as soon as she leaves the hospital and the baby dies? She just went through all of that pain and she got to spend a day with the child? That day makes it all worthwhile?

    What's even worse is that the fetus has no say. As for the mother being in danger: I really don't know what to think of that, and I'm not concerned with it right now. I'm more concerned with the millions of children who are killed out of irresponsibility.
    How can the fetus possibly have a say? This is what I really don't understand in your argument. You say that a fetus is alive and is a child, but would you ask a young child (we'll say age 4) a life or death question? No, because they won't have had the knowledge and experience to make the correct decision. That's why there are parents. To make the decisions. And maybe you should be concerned about the mothers, because they are the ones who are giving birth to the children. Without them, where are the children gonna come out from? As for the "millions of children who are killed out of irresponsibility," of that 1.37 million aborted every year, how do you know what percent is aborted because of irresponsibility? What if the condom breaks? What if the girl will be shunned from her family and cast off and never be able to see them again? Realistically here, this isn't a perfect world where everyone makes the best decisions when it comes to post time.

    Yes, I could. I'd rather live in poverty than be dead. I'll tell you this much: I'm glad to have had the chance at life.


    So if someone told you that you could either choose to die tonight, or go live in Russia and die of starvation in 2 weeks, you would rather starve and suffer in the last days of your life? I'd rather go see my friends and family and wish them well, then go party until it happened.


    How on EARTH can you say a man has no place in all this? Her body? The child she carries is half hers, and half his. Yes, she has a more painful role, but that cannot be helped, and it doesn't make the father any less of a parent than the mother. Let's also not forget that plenty of women enjoy childbirth in spite of it's hardships. My mom/stepmom both tell me it's a wonderful feeling.


    I never said this, so I'm going to assume that you're not talking to me.
    Jason Unger is me.
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  21. #96
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    What does that have to do with anything? You say that a fetus is alive, right? Well the ants and dogs and cats are alive too. The point is that it can't reason, and therefore can't possibly have any say in the decision. Would you trust a one year old baby to tell you if it was safe to cross the street?
    No, that is my entire point here. A fetus (or child, as I still call it) cannot reason, but that doesn't mean it is without rights. If you were to get into a car accident, and became a living vegetable, murdering you would still be a crime. They deserve one thing: to be born. If they choose to take their own life after that, we can't really stop them.


    Yes, life begins at birth. Until then, nothing serves any purpose.
    Um, what's birth? The moment the cord is cut? The moment the baby is no longer in any way inside the mother? What about the split second before the cord is cut, or the split second before it is fully outside of it's mother?


    You don't think that a woman would be upset if she and her newborn baby are in a car accident as soon as she leaves the hospital and the baby dies? She just went through all of that pain and she got to spend a day with the child? That day makes it all worthwhile?
    Did I say she wouldn't be a upset? Nope. I said it's not relevant...meaning not relevant to this conversation. The fact that it's technically possible for the baby to die anyway later on is not an argument for abortion.


    How can the fetus possibly have a say? This is what I really don't understand in your argument. You say that a fetus is alive and is a child, but would you ask a young child (we'll say age 4) a life or death question? No, because they won't have had the knowledge and experience to make the correct decision. That's why there are parents. To make the decisions. And maybe you should be concerned about the mothers, because they are the ones who are giving birth to the children. Without them, where are the children gonna come out from?
    Who's to say I am not concerned with the mothers? I'm not saying they don't matter, I'm saying that the children are far more important, BECAUSE of the fact that they don't have a say...we need to stick up for them. I sympathize (honestly...I really, truly do) with those who have to go through these types of things, but let's not forget that more often than not, they make a choice. I sympathize with some people who are sentenced to life in prison, but does that mean they are not at fault?

    As for the "millions of children who are killed out of irresponsibility," of that 1.37 million aborted every year, how do you know what percent is aborted because of irresponsibility? What if the condom breaks? What if the girl will be shunned from her family and cast off and never be able to see them again? Realistically here, this isn't a perfect world where everyone makes the best decisions when it comes to post time.
    You're right, they don't always make the best decisions...what's your point? If they screw up, the least they can do is let the life they have created live on -- give it to someone else...some family that is ACHING for that life...a family that wants it so badly. Sure beats throwing it away.

    If the condom breaks, they are responsible. Sex is here to allow us to have children. It has other "perks", but that is it's function in purely practical terms. If you have sex knowing full well that you're not ready for a child, you're being irresponsible, and you've got no one to blame but yourself if it happens to you.

    I am not saying these are bad people...most of them have been taught that what they're doing is just fine, but it DOES promote a lack of responsibility. There is no doubt of that. These arguments that consist of "but it's so hard for them" (more or less) don't matter at all. It's hard to be punished...it's hard to work...it's hard to experience anything at all unpleasant.


    So if someone told you that you could either choose to die tonight, or go live in Russia and die of starvation in 2 weeks, you would rather starve and suffer in the last days of your life? I'd rather go see my friends and family and wish them well, then go party until it happened.
    Faulty argument. That assumes that I WILL die of starvation if I go to Russia. When applied to the abortion argument, that means it assumes the child WILL be raised poorly, and hate life. This is not the case.

    I never said this, so I'm going to assume that you're not talking to me.
    You didn't ask it directly, but but it is heavily implied that the man has no place in it all when you say "it's her body." I simply want people to remember that the woman does not simlpy own this child as she does a toy. There is a joint ownership here, and unless the man is MIA (a sad, sad thing), the woman should not have the ONLY say here...sounds cruel, but a baby is a joint venture.

  22. #97
    e=2.718281828459045235360 HyperBaseball's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    No, that is my entire point here. A fetus (or child, as I still call it) cannot reason, but that doesn't mean it is without rights. If you were to get into a car accident, and became a living vegetable, murdering you would still be a crime. They deserve one thing: to be born. If they choose to take their own life after that, we can't really stop them.


    So everytime an ant, which we've established doesn't have the ability to reason (just like a fetus), is stepped on by a person, that person should be convicted of murder?

    Um, what's birth? The moment the cord is cut? The moment the baby is no longer in any way inside the mother? What about the split second before the cord is cut, or the split second before it is fully outside of it's mother?
    Birth, courtesy of Dictionary.com

    birth (būrth)
    n.

    The emergence and separation of offspring from the body of the mother.
    Happy?


    Who's to say I am not concerned with the mothers?


    Umm, you did.

    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    As for the mother being in danger: I really don't know what to think of that, and I'm not concerned with it right now.
    If they screw up, the least they can do is let the life they have created live on -- give it to someone else...some family that is ACHING for that life...a family that wants it so badly.


    The problem here is, the adoption process is screwed up- a child just can't be adopted. and you can't just leave the baby in a basket on someone's front stoop, either.

    "In the 1990s, there [were] approximately 120,000 adoptions of children each year."

    -from National Adoption Information Clearinghouse

    So what happens to the other (1,370,000 - 120,000) 1.25 million children if none are aborted? Well... they bounce around from foster home to foster home, live in orphanages, some live happily with their parents who decide not to abort, others live unhappily wherever it may be.

    Faulty argument. That assumes that I WILL die of starvation if I go to Russia. When applied to the abortion argument, that means it assumes the child WILL be raised poorly, and hate life. This is not the case.


    I should have put a disclaimer on that. It was off-topic, as I was inquiring to how you would like your life to end, and if you are so happy to be alive that you would rather starve by yourself in a foreign country for an extra 2 weeks of life.

    You didn't ask it directly, but but it is heavily implied that the man has no place in it all when you say "it's her body." I simply want people to remember that the woman does not simlpy own this child as she does a toy.
    Yeah, you're right, I didn't ask anything. And I didn't ever once say anything about the man not having any input, as you stated:

    Originally Posted by TWTCommish
    How on EARTH can you say a man has no place in all this?
    After reading my argument again, I never even brought up the subject about the man's opinion! Damn, stop putting words into my mouth. I didn't heavily imply anything concerning that! And it is her body, what, if you get a girl pregnant, you're going to think it's your body? Of course the man should have input into the decision, it's his child too. That's BS, don't ever try to talk for me.
    Jason Unger is me.
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  23. #98
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    Yes, abortion is murder.

    I'm sure you've seen this before, but if not, it's worth seeing.

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  24. #99
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    So everytime an ant, which we've established doesn't have the ability to reason (just like a fetus), is stepped on by a person, that person should be convicted of murder?
    Nope, killing an animal is not murder. It is perfectly acceptable, though not always preferable, or particularly moral (it depends).


    Happy?
    No, I want you to define birth. Let me ask you: if the baby is "alive" when it has emerged from the mother, what of the split second before that? Is it just some creature when it's in her stomach while she's in the hospital bed about to give birth any second, but a human a second later when it's basically the same, only outside of her stomach rather than in?

    I'm sure I don't need to point out how incredibly faulty that concept is.


    Umm, you did.
    Alright, I'm not going to necessarily doubt you, but can you provide a quote here? I recall being MORE concerned with the child than the mother. I remember saying that I don't care if my mother has to go through crap to have me as well...that does not mean I am not concerned with the mother at all, it means that, in comparison to the child's right to live, I don't care about some inconviences.


    The problem here is, the adoption process is screwed up- a child just can't be adopted. and you can't just leave the baby in a basket on someone's front stoop, either.
    It's not preferable, but it IS done. If we need to restructure the way adoption is handled, then so be it, but it's vastly superior to the "option" of abortion.


    I should have put a disclaimer on that. It was off-topic, as I was inquiring to how you would like your life to end, and if you are so happy to be alive that you would rather starve by yourself in a foreign country for an extra 2 weeks of life.
    Ah, I see. Well, I really don't know.

    Yeah, you're right, I didn't ask anything. And I didn't ever once say anything about the man not having any input, as you stated: (snip)
    After reading my argument again, I never even brought up the subject about the man's opinion! Damn, stop putting words into my mouth. I didn't heavily imply anything concerning that! And it is her body, what, if you get a girl pregnant, you're going to think it's your body? Of course the man should have input into the decision, it's his child too. That's BS, don't ever try to talk for me.
    Uh...this wasn't you?

    "I'm Pro-Choice... I also feel as a guy I wouldn't have the right to make a decision involving something that will never happen to me (having kids... duh)."

    ...or this?

    "Pro-choice. You don't have the right to tell any woman what she should do with her body."

    Now, you do not directly say that the guy should not have input...but it's basically implied (heavily, in my opinion) that the woman makes the choice, because she's the one who is pregnant, technically. I don't think I'm making a stretch here when I take you as having said it is the woman's choice.

    Anyway, that all hardly matters in comparison to my question about when life begins. Quite frankly, I'm amazed you offered that definition up...it's so remarkably impractical. I guess that maybe, despite the fact that it's kicking for months up until the birth, it's not alive, but when the baby is seen outside of the womb instead of inside it, it magically becomes alive? The second we can "see" it, eh?
    Last edited by TWTCommish; Jul 20, 2001 at 12:37.

  25. #100
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    Life begins the second the child is conceived. But until that child is born it's a part of the woman's body like her arms, legs and kidneys.


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