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  1. #51
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I'd like to add something else: if some of you are going to play the "some of them will grow up in horrible situations" card, then I can play a card on the flip side of things: some of them will go on to make this world a far better place. In a book from the early to mid 90s, I read that around 30 million children had been aborted in (somewhat) recent history (assuming I remember correctly). If it's less, my point still applies: how many scientists were in those 30 million?

    If you think it's okay to deny them all a chance at life because some of them might not like it, then why can't I say that they should all "reach" birth because some will love life, or make the rest of us love life? Hopefully this will truly negate the "bad situation" argument...which I never really saw the value in.

  2. #52
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Plebius: well, how many parents are waiting for children? How many hold off? Unless I'm mistaken, adoption is a fairly expensive thing overall for the people doing the adopting. Perhaps adoption rates would increase significantly if we had an abundance of children, and lower costs overall?

    Anyway, I think almost any child is better off in a foster home than they are dead. Adoption alone will not solve this problem, we need responsibility here, but I do think more teenage mothers should give their children up for adoption, when faced with an unwanted pregnancy.

  3. #53
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    For every adoption completed, there are 5-6 parents who do not adopt. I couldn't find the reasons given for this, so I don't know whether they changed their minds, were deemed unsuitable to adopt, or if it was because of a lack of children to adopt. That still leaves another 500,000 kids a year and considering that currently there's only around 500,000-600,000 total kids in foster homes, I doubt the system could support 500,000 new kids per year.
    Last edited by Plebius; Jul 20, 2001 at 01:28.

  4. #54
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Plebius
    Adoption is not a practical alternative to abortion on a large scale. The current number of households with adopted children is around 2%, I believe.

    In 1992, the last year for which total adoption statistics were available, 127,441 children of all races and nationalities were adopted in the United States (National Adoption Information Clearinghouse, 1996).

    There are approximately 1.37 million abortions per year in the United States.

    So, the adoption rate would have to be 10 times what it is currently, resulting in 20% of households adopting. A number I find quite unfeasible.
    I think you'll find that the reason so few adoptions take place is because of the way the adoption system is run and not because people don't want to adopt.

    Families are penalised because of their age, their religion, their social status and even, in some cases, the colour of their skin - black babies won't be placed with white families and vice versa. Surely what should matter the most is that the child is placed with a family that will show them the love that every child deserves. If this were the case, I'm sure we'd see a greater number of orphans being adopted.
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  5. #55
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    See my post above yours.

  6. #56
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Plebius
    See my post above yours.
    Yeah...I saw that after!
    I had to stop partway through my reply to see my daughter off to school. By the time I got back, you'd posted again - sorry!
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
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  7. #57
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Saz249

    Yeah...I saw that after!
    I had to stop partway through my reply to see my daughter off to school. By the time I got back, you'd posted again - sorry!
    No worries!
    That's definitely more important!

  8. #58
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    I'm curious what people think of a possible solution to the abortion problem.

  9. #59
    SitePoint Wizard johnn's Avatar
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    Look at those unborn childs, look at the fetus. Don't they look like human? I say NO to abortion.

  10. #60
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Plebius
    No worries!
    That's definitely more important!
    Yep! But it's more for me than for her I think - she's growing up too fast! She just turned 7 last week and is adamant that she walk to school on her own! Fortunately, the school is just behind where we live, so there are no major roads to cross or anything otherwise I wouldn't let her, but I still like to play 'protective mum' and watch her walk to the end of the road
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  11. #61
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Plebius
    I'm curious what people think of a possible solution to the abortion problem.
    I'd say education, primarily.

    I don't know exact statistics here, so I could be wrong, but I would assume that the majority of abortions are given to teenage girls who end up pregnant 'by mistake'. The number of girls who think you can't get pregnant 'the first time' is astonishing.

    I see teenage sex as much the same as teenage smoking. Kids do it because they think it makes them 'adults' and those who don't face constant harrassment for being 'immature'. Personally, I think it's the other way around.

    Sex education in school needs dramatically up-dating. It's one thing to teach 'how a baby is made' (my son is 10 and has just reached this stage in school), but issues such as unprotected sex, sex outside of a stable relationship, and the possibility of unwanted pregnancies/abortion should also be addressed. I know moral studies are taught in school, but at what age? My eldest niece is almost 15 and she hasn't covered topics like this in school yet, but children as young as 10 and 11 (listen to it - children) are having sex.

    I don't think we'll ever abolish abortion completely - as I've said before, even if it were illegal, there'll always be backstreet abortionists ready to take your money - but I'm sure that educating our children will reduce it. We have to try, don't we?
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
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  12. #62
    ALT.NET - because we need it silver trophybronze trophy dhtmlgod's Avatar
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    hmmm... really earlier on it was discussed about how u should use plently of protection, but lil old me was concieved thru to layers of protection, a condom and my mother on the pill. She could have had an abortion, but she didnt, so here i am now (tho she still uses the argument that i was an accident to annoy me)

    So even when using to of the most statistcally safest mean of protection, my mother still feel pregnant. So what would have happened if she had decided to have an abortion (part from the fact i wouldnt be her e ) ? Not only was i not planned, they where doing everything in their power to not have me, they were being safe, and they were married. Would it have been morally right for them to abort me?

    From that argument... i dont have a clue which way i am, cos im not sure, in that sense, im happy they didnt get it done, but if they had, it wouldnt have made a difference to me, would it have?

    (wait a sec... im a bloody accident! )

  13. #63
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    The majority of abortions (~30%) are performed on women ages 20-24, and ~80% are unmarried.

    http://www.abortionfacts.com/statistics/age.asp

  14. #64
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Plebius
    The majority of abortions (~30%) are performed on women ages 20-24, and ~80% are unmarried.

    http://www.abortionfacts.com/statistics/age.asp
    Wow! I'm shocked!

    Mind you, that's just for the States isn't it. I'd be interested to know what the stats are for the UK. Teenage pregnancies here are really high - but the percentage of those kept to those aborted I don't know.
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  15. #65
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    Originally posted by johnn
    Look at those unborn childs, look at the fetus. Don't they look like human? I say NO to abortion.
    You're talking about fetuses that are at least 4 months old there. However, it's very rare (and dangerous) that abortion occurs so late. In my country the maximum delay is 10 weeks (or has it been extended to 12, laws are changing a bit).
    The fetus is considered viable (with functional lungs and all that stuff) by the time it's 28 weeks old.
    So for me, 10 or 12 weeks old doesn't make it any human yet. Look at how they actually look like at 10 weeks old...
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  16. #66
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Saz249

    Wow! I'm shocked!

    Mind you, that's just for the States isn't it. I'd be interested to know what the stats are for the UK. Teenage pregnancies here are really high - but the percentage of those kept to those aborted I don't know.
    Yes, that's in the U.S. I haven't been able to find many statistics on age for other countries. Though, these stats for England and Wales suggest a majority are between 20-24 there as well.

    I've also seen other stats that show higher abortion rates in countries where abortion is illegal, but that could be due to lack of contraception in those countries.

  17. #67
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Plebius
    Yes, that's in the U.S. I haven't been able to find many statistics on age for other countries. Though, these stats for England and Wales suggest a majority are between 20-24 there as well.

    I've also seen other stats that show higher abortion rates in countries where abortion is illegal, but that could be due to lack of contraception in those countries.
    Well I'm truly surprised. Though I would also like to add that in excess of 35,000 teenagers having an abortion is still something that needs to be addressed.
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
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  18. #68
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    I'd rather address the issue of these teens being pregnant first place. Abortion would be much less of a problem if young people were educated about sex & morals (and I don't mean Christian morals or any other religion's, just basic universal moral). Also, myths like 'you can't be pregnant if it's your first time' need to be thoroughly fought...
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  19. #69
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Shin Ma
    I'd rather address the issue of these teens being pregnant first place. Abortion would be much less of a problem if young people were educated about sex & morals (and I don't mean Christian morals or any other religion's, just basic universal moral). Also, myths like 'you can't be pregnant if it's your first time' need to be thoroughly fought...
    If you read a bit further back, you'll see that I've already mentioned this. Sex ed' in schools needs a serious re-vamp! That's what I meant when I said teenage abortions need to be addressed. We need to do what we can to stop teenage girls getting pregnant in the first place, and the best way to do that is to educate them properly.
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
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  20. #70
    SitePoint Wizard johnn's Avatar
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    Give it a chance, Shin Ma, a 12 weeks old fetus will become human. If abortion is not murder, then performing an abortion is an unnatural act, isn't it? Because it is not a tumor in a mother's body, it's not a bad thing, it's a part of mother's body.

  21. #71
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    Plebius: well, how many parents are waiting for children? How many hold off? Unless I'm mistaken, adoption is a fairly expensive thing overall for the people doing the adopting. Perhaps adoption rates would increase significantly if we had an abundance of children, and lower costs overall?

    Anyway, I think almost any child is better off in a foster home than they are dead. Adoption alone will not solve this problem, we need responsibility here, but I do think more teenage mothers should give their children up for adoption, when faced with an unwanted pregnancy.
    Obviously never been a resident then
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  22. #72
    SitePoint Wizard iTec's Avatar
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    heres a subject that i of all people am not convinced there is a right or wrong answer for...
    My mother was 16 when she had me, my father 19... statistically speaking i should not be here.
    Im 19, my Girlfriend is 17, and my daughter is 2 months old, statistically she shouldnt be here...
    you may be thinking that we never considered abortion, we did.. for some time actually at one point we had made our mind up that it would be the right thing to do, however the more WE thought about it, the more it seemed less and less like we should abort so we kept her, was it the right decission?? I think it was, should we have used better protection yes, was it planned, No.. Things come up that you dont expect, Today i am glad that i have a daughter, i love her and her mother with all my heart and could not imagine what it would be like to have aborted, life may have gone on for us, but how would it of changed us? what emotionally would we have felt? and what would she have been like? we have the chance to see how our daughter will turn out, and that is only being made possible through alot, and i mean alot of support from our family. but does that mean that abortion is wrong because we are happy? no
    Abortion is a very touchy subject simply because people are blinded by there own past, ethics and morals. are you moraly week just because you support abortion? euthenasia? it is not the govenments place to rule wether these matters are right or wrong.
    Abortion like euthenasia should be left to the people it effects the most, They are the ones that have to live with and support the child..

  23. #73
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    iTec, I can see your point all the way here, which is why I made a point of saying before that, whilst I personally don't agree with abortion, I have no intention of forcing that opinion on others.

    My stance on sex education still stands though. There are myths, such as the "not falling pregnant the first time" one, which need to be dispelled and many moral issues that should be discussed as well as the technicalities of conception.
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
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  24. #74
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR
    you tell me why she shouldn't have been aborted. she SAID it was OK, so why would there be anything wrong with it? i'm not the cretin, she is.
    If my birth would have made my mother’s life miserable then, yes, I think that I should have been aborted. As an unborn foetus I didn’t have a conscience and was probably not able to feel fear of death. So it wouldn’t have made any difference to me. (But I will not die a slow and painful death today just to make you happy. )

    Saz and Shin Ma:
    I agree with you that only sex education can make the current abortion situation better. A lot of teenagers are having sex. Forbidding it does not help (and is also against human rights – every person has the right to enjoy sex). Only education can help people protect themselves.

  25. #75
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalH
    Obviously never been a resident then
    I can't tell if that's a joke or not, but I've never been to Russia, and yet I'd rather be there than dead. Fact of the matter is that people choose to kill themselves everyday, but a baby isn't even given the choice to live, as we have been.


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