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  1. #26
    SitePoint Wizard dethfire's Avatar
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    yes abortion becuase of a bad choice is MURDER. I can see if you got raped, then abortion is ok, but not if you were iresponsible and had unprotected intercourse. I think it's horrible to take a life from that being. You all say it's ok, but what if you were the little fetus who was aborted, then you wouldn't think pro-choice now would you. You look around at your friends, family and people at work. What if they were aborted. To rob them of all thier future experiences because of a bad choice is terrible. I hope all mothers who decide to abort thier children feel guilty all thier lives. Toughen up and take the responsiblity. Stop taking the easy way out. "Oooh I can't support the baby" or "we're not ready yet". TOO BAD, get with the program and give that little bit of life a chance to grow into something positive, not fertilizer.

    hyperbaseball, i'm having a real hard time not laughing at your post about plants and ants. Gimmie a break, don't even start to compare plants and bugs to humans. The word murder only applies to humans. Plants and bugs don't have hardly any form or conscience and never will. Yeah a fetus my not either, but it grows into something that can, and again, if you rob that fetus of future proms, weddings, jobs and fun times, I think that wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.
    Last edited by dethfire; Jul 19, 2001 at 14:34.
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  2. #27
    Making a better wheel silver trophy DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR's Avatar
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    yes it's murder.

    Originally posted by Marina
    Well, what do you think? I think that abortion is OK.
    if you think it's OK, i think you should've been aborted. then you wouldn't have been able to start this thread.

  3. #28
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    What annoys me with pro-life arguments is the lack of respect for the potential mother of the child: just think about how you'd feel, if strangers said you got to go through your pregnancy, instead of terminating it because you couldn't handle the child financially or emotionally. Don't you spot a denial of basic freedom ? Wouldn't you be bitter ? Seems like you haven't been through forced pregnancy...
    You can still say "what the heck, she can give it for adoption", but would you like to experience giving your child away ? And about the excuse of wannabe parents wanting to adopt, just think about all these kids who want parents, that's where the adoption problem is: there are far too many kids for the adopting 'parents', so why adding another orphan soul to this earth ?
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  4. #29
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Is abortion murder?

    Originally posted by DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR
    if you think it's OK, i think you should've been aborted. then you wouldn't have been able to start this thread.
    Narrow-mindness at its best. Congratulations for the flame.
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  5. #30
    SitePoint Wizard dethfire's Avatar
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    Shin ma, i can't accept any of your arguments. I frankly don't care what the mother feels and what she goes through. What I feel sad for is the child. The mother made a bad choice, now she needs to grow up and live with her responsibilites (rape not included). Throwing her baby away is not mature idea. Shin ma, the mother is not the victum, it is the child who won't have a future, the mother lives on. EVeryone here if asked "would you want to have been terminated as a fetus", everyone would say heck no!! I really have a hard time feeling sympathy for anyone envolved in an abortion. It's not that the fetus doesn't have a conscience, but the fact that it has the potenial to be something. And for all the teen girls who are wannabe parents, i again don't care if your life is ruined by giving birth at age 17. It's either your life or the babies and I say I favor the baby, maybe it won't scew up it's life.
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  6. #31
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    I am pro-abortion.

  7. #32
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Is abortion murder?

    Originally posted by DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR
    yes it's murder.
    ...
    if you think it's OK, i think you should've been aborted. then you wouldn't have been able to start this thread.
    Murder is illegal.

    On another note, approximately 13% of the 600,000 cases of maternal deaths worldwide each year are due to unsafe (illegal) abortions. What is that, around 100,000 women who die every year from illegal abortions? What's the number who die from legal abortions? Less than 100.

    And all the statistics I have seen indicate that the abortion rates aren't influenced much by the legality of abortion.

    The choice is easy for me to see. Shall we make abortion illegal then have the same number of abortions and more dead mothers or do we keep it legal and safe?

  8. #33
    Making a better wheel silver trophy DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Is abortion murder?

    Originally posted by Plebius
    Murder is illegal.
    correction: murder is illegal when it's not abortion.

  9. #34
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Correction: we are dealing with a legal matter, and the legal definition of murder is the "unlwaful killing of a human being".

    Abortion is lawful, and of course it is arguable whether a fetus is a human being.

  10. #35
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    Originally posted by dethfire
    The mother made a bad choice, now she needs to grow up and live with her responsibilites (rape not included).

    What about disrupted condoms, forgetful boyfriend, or whatever stupid causes that'd bring to a pregnancy she didn't choose ?
    Also, how would you like it if strangers told you what to do with your body (as long as the fetus is in yopu, it's a part of you, not a separate individual), based only on THEIR beliefs and not yours ?


    Shin ma, the mother is not the victum, it is the child who won't have a future, the mother lives on.

    ...lives on what, on welfare ?


    EVeryone here if asked "would you want to have been terminated as a fetus", everyone would say heck no!!

    This isn't a strong argument. Anyone when asked "would you like your life to be terminated" would reply NO, this is obvious.


    I really have a hard time feeling sympathy for anyone envolved in an abortion.

    Probably because you haven't experienced abortion among your loved ones. When you'll deal with a close friend whose parents and doctors refused to allow abortion and who was forced to carry the baby to his term and is now unemployed wasting her youth at parents' home with a young child who is unloved; when someone very close to you is having an abortion because she & her boyfriend can't raise the child in decent conditions (you know how much it costs to raise a child when you're broke ?)... When you have experienced that like I did, surely your mind will change.


    It's not that the fetus doesn't have a conscience, but the fact that it has the potenial to be something. And for all the teen girls who are wannabe parents, i again don't care if your life is ruined by giving birth at age 17. It's either your life or the babies and I say I favor the baby, maybe it won't scew up it's life.

    Irresponsibility of the American youth is another problem. If you can't provide them with a good education about SEX and the risks involved with having unprotected intercourse, and instead prefer spreading religious boring ideals in their heads until they break down and follow female/whore role models in MTV videoclips (which all seem to say if you're still virgin by the age of 12 then you're a freak); then who are you to decide what's good for them or the baby ?
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  11. #36
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    Originally posted by dethfire
    And for all the teen girls who are wannabe parents
    By the way, I was talking about adults who can't have a child and who want to adopt one, when I said "wannabe parents".
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  12. #37
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    Originally posted by dethfire
    I frankly don't care what the mother feels and what she goes through. What I feel sad for is the child.
    I also feel sad for the child. Growing up with a mother that don't want you is the worst that can happen to you! Sometimes it even leads to suicide - the child is "aborting" him/herself. People that don't want children should NOT be forced to have any. Both for their own sake AND the childs sake.

  13. #38
    e=2.718281828459045235360 HyperBaseball's Avatar
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    Saz-- yeah, you're right, I pretty much cheated on that. Anyway.

    Originally posted by dethfire
    yes abortion becuase of a bad choice is MURDER. I can see if you got raped, then abortion is ok, but not if you were iresponsible and had unprotected intercourse. I think it's horrible to take a life from that being. You all say it's ok, but what if you were the little fetus who was aborted, then you wouldn't think pro-choice now would you.
    Why should people who are irresponsible have to pass on their neglect and be irresponsible to children? Would you like to have been raised by parents who didn't mean to have you, and really could have cared less that you come into the world? Now, given this isn't always the case-- but if people aren't smart enough to use protection, what says they're smart enough to raise a child correctly? They're just going to realize they need to shape up and do it right then and there? Gimme a break. As for me being the fetus aborted, what would it matter? I wouldn't be here right now, how could I possibly not be pro choice then? I never would have lived, for crying out loud. That's a horrible argument.

    But you say that abortion after a rape is okay-- well, what's to classify a rape? Yes, I realize that there are laws that clearly define the extent of a rape, but what about all the ones that don't go reported? Is it the woman's fault if she is pressured into unprotected sex by someone whom she thinks she is emotionally attracted to? She might like the guy, but just might not want to do the deed right then and there.

    hyperbaseball, i'm having a real hard time not laughing at your post about plants and ants. Gimmie a break, don't even start to compare plants and bugs to humans. The word murder only applies to humans. Plants and bugs don't have hardly any form or conscience and never will. Yeah a fetus my not either, but it grows into something that can, and again, if you rob that fetus of future proms, weddings, jobs and fun times, I think that wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.


    Why's it so funny? I'm not comparing plants and bugs to humans... I'm comparing them to fetuses. You don't think bugs have any form of conscience? What do you think worker ants, army ants, queen ants et al are? They form a society. Fetuses don't have societies... ants do.

    As for robbing fetuses of all that stuff-- whose to say that they will make it that far? How do you know that they won't die of disease when they're six, or get hit by a drunk driver when they're on their way out of the hospital?

    Pro-choice. You don't have the right to tell any woman what she should do with her body.
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  14. #39
    Sports Publisher mjames's Avatar
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    I believe it should be the women's choice, it is her baby. But, I do not think abortion is moral just because the mother doesn't want the baby or something. However, I feel that if the baby is known to have life-threatening problems or the mother will die if the baby is born, I think abortion is okay under those circumstances.

  15. #40
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    Re: Re: Is abortion murder?

    Originally posted by DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR
    if you think it's OK, i think you should've been aborted. then you wouldn't have been able to start this thread.
    You're a cretin.

  16. #41
    SitePoint Wizard dethfire's Avatar
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    lol, i'm getting clobbered out here, someone back me up

    first off, shin ma, my best friend's girlfriend got pregnant and had an abortion and guess who payed for it because me best friend didn't have the money, I payed.

    HyperBaseball, you bring on a good arrgument about the passing on the neglect. I can see your point, but still I'd rather live even if I was not in a happy home. I'd atleast have some chance or opportunity to make it big, instead of outright striped away my experiences. But this is just my opinions. You also bring up a good point about the fetus and how it's part of the mother and not a seperate enitity. I would however like to see some people with morals though and not abort. Knowing that someday it would be something.

    Also, those ants are run by thier genetics not a real conscience. Everthing they know is pretty much built into themselves and no opportunity for advancement.

    I don't have any definte arrguments, but I'm just saying that people better make darn sure they know what they are doing when the decide to abort. It should be used as a absolute last choice, not a birth control method. And even if that kids fate is getting hit by a car at the age of six, wouldn't you want to live six years and not two months?
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  17. #42
    e=2.718281828459045235360 HyperBaseball's Avatar
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    Originally posted by dethfire
    first off, shin ma, my best friend's girlfriend got pregnant and had an abortion and guess who payed for it because me best friend didn't have the money, I payed.


    Just wanted to say to that-- you need to find some better friends. That's a bad situation to be in, having a friend ask you for money for something of that magnitude.

    I can see your point, but still I'd rather live even if I was not in a happy home. I'd atleast have some chance or opportunity to make it big, instead of outright striped away my experiences.
    I don't want this to sound like I'm chewing you out at all, b/c everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions, but have you ever lived in an unhappy home? I've been very fortunate that I haven't, but (I don't have any statistics to back this up) most child/teen suicides come from "unhappy" homes. That's not cool either.

    I don't have any definte arrguments, but I'm just saying that people better make darn sure they know what they are doing when the decide to abort. It should be used as a absolute last choice, not a birth control method. And even if that kids fate is getting hit by a car at the age of six, wouldn't you want to live six years and not two months?
    I agree- I don't think that abortion should be used as a way out, but I don't think that it shouldn't be considered (double negative) at all. And you're right about the six years-- it was a pretty weak point in my argument to make, which I probably should have changed-- but yes, six is better than none.
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  18. #43
    SitePoint Wizard dethfire's Avatar
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    yeah, some people have unhappy homes, but there other ways to deal with them without resulting in suicide, but thats a whole nother topic. theres really no anwser to this.

    Just wanted to say to that-- you need to find some better friends. That's a bad situation to be in, having a friend ask you for money for something of that magnitude.
    thats pretty brave of you to say that I need new friends. but you are right that he should support himself (arrrrrh...). he did end up paying me back a few months afterwards though.

    but this is a touchy subject and life is full of them, so lets make this a happy topic now

    anyway, the answer to any problem can be found through education. the better educated you are the more likely you are to make better choices. thats right all you horny teens, go to school!!
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  19. #44
    Making a better wheel silver trophy DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Is abortion murder?

    Originally posted by jackiemcghee
    You're a cretin.
    you tell me why she shouldn't have been aborted. she SAID it was OK, so why would there be anything wrong with it? i'm not the cretin, she is.

  20. #45
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    Can we keep the punchs above the belt? No point in insulting each other.

  21. #46
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Allow me to chime in on the issue of rape.

    Many times in debating with people on abortion, some people I have met are pro-life with exceptions for rape. This brings up several problems. First of all, if a woman wants an abortion bad enough, she could just claim she was raped. Of course now the logical thing to say is "she'd have to prove it". Well, this means that she'd have to first report it, something many women are unwilling to do, and then there'd have to be a trial to prove the guilt of the rapist. By the time the whole process is through, 9 months would probably have passed already. Having abortion illegal except in cases of rape is equivalent to having abortion illegal in all cases.

  22. #47
    Non-Member superharris's Avatar
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    Death I am with you

    This is so true stop feeling sorry for the 16 year old girl that had sex! I do not care it is her fault people need to take there damn responsibilities it was a choice she made and all choices have a consequence Atleast give that child a chance put it up for adoption I am not sure how that child's life would be but who the hell are we to judge their life as good or bad?

  23. #48
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by HyperBaseball
    Pro-choice. You don't have the right to tell any woman what she should do with her body.
    ...but of course, a woman has the right to decide what happens to the body of the child? I'm sorry, but I am 100% fed up with these slogans. If you want to talk about abortion, then go ahead, but saying things like "a woman's right to choose" and "it's their body" is no better than "four legs good, two legs bad" -- it's some mantra people chant over and over that doesn't get us any farther along than we were beforehand.

    There are several key points that I don't see anyone really, truly, fully addressing here:
    • Are we forgetting that it takes TWO people to make a child? Believe me, I have all the respect in the world for what women have to go through, but it is NOT their child alone. The man and woman create the child together...it is BOTH of theirs.
    • To anyone who thinks it ought to be allowed: tell me when life begins. If you can't pinpoint it, reasonably, then I don't think you have any place to risk killing what may be a living being.



    Why's it so funny? I'm not comparing plants and bugs to humans... I'm comparing them to fetuses. You don't think bugs have any form of conscience? What do you think worker ants, army ants, queen ants et al are? They form a society. Fetuses don't have societies... ants do.
    You're comparing a fully grown creature to a creature that is still growing. Why is it funny? Because humans are the only species to give a flying hoot about any other species on this planet. I don't see any Zebra starting organizations to save endangered species, or anything of the sort. It's irrelevant anyway, though.


    As for robbing fetuses of all that stuff-- whose to say that they will make it that far? How do you know that they won't die of disease when they're six, or get hit by a drunk driver when they're on their way out of the hospital?
    Give me a break man. That's so irrelevant it's nearly comical. They are being robbed of life. They have one shot at life, and they're being robbed of it. How's this for an analogy: don't be upset if someone robs you on the street. They are not to blame, because someone else would have surely robbed you later, so the person who actually did rob you isn't at fault.

    Oh, and here's something some of you know about me, and some of you do not: my parents could hardly afford me when I was born. I am so happy to be alive, though, despite having lived in poverty as a young child. Should we really let millions (yes, millions) of abortions go on because some people will be born into bad situations? Most people WANT to live despite life's hardships.

    What we really need here is an easy way for these women (or girls, as is all too often the case) to give their babies up for adoption. It needs to be easy, IMO.


    Also, how would you like it if strangers told you what to do with your body (as long as the fetus is in yopu, it's a part of you, not a separate individual), based only on THEIR beliefs and not yours ?
    Yeah, don't you just hate that? Though it's even worse when you're still formulating inside your mother's stomach and you don't even have the chance to argue with them about it. You're dead, because they don't want to deal with you. End of story. No jury, no negotiating, no nothing. You have no say in whether or not you "survive" until birth.

    Think about this: we'll send in dozens and dozens of soldiers on rescue missions to save just one man...why? Because we recognize that life is important.

    When you plant a tree, it begins to grow. It is alive. Is it a tree yet? No, but it will be, UNLESS something comes in and purposely gets in it's way...that is, unless something steps in and breaks nature's course. A fetus is a sapling...it's alive alright. A small apple tree is still a form of apple tree. A fetus is a form of a human...the moment of conception is the moment of life.

    Sex, in a purely practical manner, yields children. That's it's practical, basic purpose. If you're not ready to deal with children, don't have sex. Is it hard to resist? Perhaps, but a lot of things are hard to resist. I'm sure for a lot of people it's hard for them to resist punching their boss in the face out of sheer hatred for their job, but it doesn't mean they have a decent excuse for doing so.

    If something goes wrong, you ought to deal with the situation. Like it or not, most abortions are obviously not a result of these "special" situations we've been talking about, like rape or incest. If you absolutely cannot care for your baby, give it someone who can. It sickens me that so many couples are unable to have children, and would do anything to have one of their own, while others cheapen human life by throwing it away, when so many are willing to take care of that unwanted (yes, unwanted. Think about that) child.

    There are very few issues which I feel completely firm in my viewpoint on, but this is one of them.

  24. #49
    Making a better wheel silver trophy DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR's Avatar
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    excellent TWTCommish! right on man!

  25. #50
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish

    ...but of course, a woman has the right to decide what happens to the body of the child? I'm sorry, but I am 100% fed up with these slogans. If you want to talk about abortion, then go ahead, but saying things like "a woman's right to choose" and "it's their body" is no better than "four legs good, two legs bad" -- it's some mantra people chant over and over that doesn't get us any farther along than we were beforehand.
    I agree. Those 'slogans' are ignoring any practical matters.

    Originally posted by TWTCommish

    What we really need here is an easy way for these women (or girls, as is all too often the case) to give their babies up for adoption. It needs to be easy, IMO.
    Adoption is not a practical alternative to abortion on a large scale. The current number of households with adopted children is around 2%, I believe.

    In 1992, the last year for which total adoption statistics were available, 127,441 children of all races and nationalities were adopted in the United States (National Adoption Information Clearinghouse, 1996).

    There are approximately 1.37 million abortions per year in the United States.

    So, the adoption rate would have to be 10 times what it is currently, resulting in 20% of households adopting. A number I find quite unfeasible.


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