I guess I am a pessemist, hmmm.
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I guess I am a pessemist, hmmm.
Oh -- what a sad life you must live....
Colin Anderson
Ambition is a poor excuse for those without
sense enough to be lazy.
Oh - its not all bad - I am realist more than anything! - so I tend not to set myself up with false expectations.
I can be a miserable bar-steward occasionally mind you
Anyway - weekend... c-yaas
I'll keep it short, then: if you're gong to use possible birth defects as a good reason to abort a child, then where is the line drawn? What about families prone to weight gain, or balding? What about families that are rather unintelligent, or short, or un-athletic?Originally posted by LadyLily
I don't know how I didn't answer the questions you asked me, I may have answered them in a different fashion, not directly.
If you don't know when it begins for each person, then why are you willing to take the chance? Seems to me you'd want to be SURE you are not taking a life before going ahead with it.Originally posted by LadyLily
The opinion is obviously based on when life starts. It varies from person to person, so there will never be a true, set rule on this issue.
KCat: if I were to kill you, I'd be killing cells too, wouldn't I?
I also want to add (though I'm sure it's painfully obvious to most here) that the arguments of overpopulation and "she'll get an illegal abortion anyway!" are irrelevant. The overpopulation argument is nauseating.
The only thing that matters is where life begins. If abortions are indeed murder, then what else matters? If we are killing a million children each year, then what possible reason can we have to NOT ban it? None. Back alley abortions or not, if what I (and many others) say is true, then there's no good reason to allow it.
You can't say that back alley abortions will stop, and I can't say they will continue. But the point is, it may not continue and may continue, and the risks can be high.
The line is drawn when you think about emotional trauma, physical tramua, and perhaps even suicide later on in life. Woudl it be better to go through life and kill yourself opposed to having your mother abort you and never having to go through that? Of course you don't know, and the posibility is still there. But...hmm...you'll never know. Might as wlel give the women the choice instead of getting her forced with the laws and other illegal options.
And what about the mother posibly dyign is she has the child? You want to kill two lives?
Yeah well, KCat is alreayd alive and gone through a bit of years of live already. She can support herself. And she is more complex than a few cells. She's out of her mother, not another part of the mother. There is a difference.
That's irrelevant. I didn't say they would stop. Where did you get that idea? What I DID say was that it simply does not matter -- if we are indeed killing human life, then it needs to stop, regardless of where some women will go afterwards. It's 1.3 million children...if it's murder, as I say it is, nothing else matters: it must stop.You can't say that back alley abortions will stop, and I can't say they will continue. But the point is, it may not continue and may continue, and the risks can be high.
That makes no sense, because you cannot measure those odds. Not at all, really. Not only that, but lots of people have emotional problems, but still want to go on living.The line is drawn when you think about emotional trauma, physical tramua, and perhaps even suicide later on in life.
That doesn't sound right: you don't know, so you might as well let her kill the child? How can you approve of it if you don't know? Shouldn't be SURE that you're not killing an innocent life? Shouldn't you be POSITIVE of EVERYTHING?But...hmm...you'll never know. Might as wlel give the women the choice instead of getting her forced with the laws and other illegal options.
I'm not referring to that. That's a much stickier subject, but that's rarely the case anyway. I'm referring to simple lack of responsibility....an inconvienent pregnancy.And what about the mother posibly dyign is she has the child? You want to kill two lives?
Sure there is: the difference is that KCat is allowed to live, and the less developed humans have no control over it.Yeah well, KCat is alreayd alive and gone through a bit of years of live already. She can support herself. And she is more complex than a few cells. She's out of her mother, not another part of the mother. There is a difference.
She's out of her mother, eh? What about a baby who has been born, but who's cord hasn't been cut? Is that not a human yet? What about when it's inside the stomach, but about to come out? Then what?
See, you can't pinpoint these situations. You haven't, and you won't be able to later, either. You just can't, which is why you can't reasonably support this.
First of all, when KCat was inside her mother's womb, she was connected, therefore a part of the mother herself. I dont' think she was a human before she was disengaged from her mother at all. I'll make a far-fetched example: my arm is connected to me, shoudl I chop it off? NOw, it's a part of me. Not that same as a fetus, but the same concept still aplies.
And the illegal abortions DO Matter! Why woudln't they? Women are still having them, thus meaning somethign is happening and it mattes! Tell me why it doens't matter. They ain't giogn to stop, even if they think it's murder or not. Your opinions probably don't mean sh*t to them at all!
Positive of everything? Were we positive that the earth was flat when the idea of it not being falt was brought up? No, we weren't. It was based on a book we don't even kow was written by "important" people and so forth. Yeah, I'm starting to get worked up and diss the bible, but it's late for me. I'll finish for the night then.
And you can't reasonably support this topic either. No one can. It is based soley on an opinion. Science has gotten us this far, and I doubt it can take us to the conclusion of this topic. You may say you can, but all your prove and evidence are based upon what you believe. This can be from religion, how you were raised, your parents, and so forth. Opinion is NOT fact in any way. Fact is law.
Let me get this straight: if a baby is being held up by a doctor, outside of the mother, but the cord isn't cut, it's not a human?First of all, when KCat was inside her mother's womb, she was connected, therefore a part of the mother herself. I dont' think she was a human before she was disengaged from her mother at all. I'll make a far-fetched example: my arm is connected to me, shoudl I chop it off? NOw, it's a part of me. Not that same as a fetus, but the same concept still aplies.
Or how about a baby inside the mother, exactly 1 second before it begins to come out? What about a baby half-way out? They are not humans?
They don't matter ENOUGH. I'm not saying that don't matter in any way, I'm saying that, if it is murder, as I say it is, then it doesn't matter in our decision to keep it legal or not. If it is murder, it needs to stop. I said this very clearly, more than once.And the illegal abortions DO Matter! Why woudln't they? Women are still having them, thus meaning somethign is happening and it mattes! Tell me why it doens't matter. They ain't giogn to stop, even if they think it's murder or not. Your opinions probably don't mean sh*t to them at all!
You know very well what I mean. You don't know if the child is alive, and yet you're perfectly fine with people killing it. I don't see the reason in that.Positive of everything? Were we positive that the earth was flat when the idea of it not being falt was brought up? No, we weren't. It was based on a book we don't even kow was written by "important" people and so forth. Yeah, I'm starting to get worked up and diss the bible, but it's late for me. I'll finish for the night then.
I find it quite ironic, as well, that you people (meaning those in opposition to me on this issue) continue to RELENTLESSLY mention religion. I don't see why. It hasn't been necessary.
Yes, I can reasonably support it. I've given you many reasons to show you that the time you say life begins is nonsense, and amazingly imprecise. This is not based soley on opinion: one of us is right, you know. One of us is wrong about when life begins.And you can't reasonably support this topic either. No one can. It is based soley on an opinion. Science has gotten us this far, and I doubt it can take us to the conclusion of this topic. You may say you can, but all your prove and evidence are based upon what you believe. This can be from religion, how you were raised, your parents, and so forth. Opinion is NOT fact in any way. Fact is law.
Fact is law? Uh, no. And this is not an issue based on opinion only, because one of us is right. If it's on opinion, then show me why. Answer my arguments. Tell me, specifically, when life begins. Tell me what measure you use. If you can't, then you don't have a leg to stand on.
I agree with TWTCommish. I believe nothing could have been said better that I would've agreed with. He supports my EXACT view.
Thank you for speaking it in a rational matter, TWT.
Okay, back to your heated discussions.
LOL...goober is wiser than all of us: he doesn't spend hours with this nonsense.Originally posted by goober
Okay, back to your heated discussions.
Me, too.Originally posted by TWTCommish
LOL...goober is wiser than all of us: he doesn't spend hours with this nonsense.
Same here. It was fun bantering back and forth, but the fun is over for me.Originally posted by mjames
Me, too.
I am at present following a court case where the Mother had an operation to prevent more kids. She fell pregnant a year later and is sueing the doctor for negligence!!
That child is now 14 and witnessing his mum telling the courts how she wanted no more kids, the cost of keeping him all this time etc etc.
What is that doing to an adolescent boy's mind?
I give her top marks for not having an abortion, but if she was going to sue, why not many years ago, before the child was too aware of what she was going through?
On the general abortion topic, if the mother or child is at risk, definitely!! In a rape case, if it was in the mother's best mental interest, definitely!!
In the case of 'accidental' pregnancy (no birth control is 100% effective, except abstinence) then it is a matter of choice and only after extensive counselling.
Dude that is weak - that kid is gonna have some serious rejection/abandonment issues.
I know, honestly, you would think that if she didn't sue years ago, she'd just let it go now. I mean, that kid's going to be screwed up. I would hope that more people would've taken their child's psychology into consideration before going in pursuit of money.
The kid should sue her for emotional/psychological damages if she wins
Who knows? Maybe the kid urged her to go ahead so he could get a new computer, a PS2, trail bike etc
Lateral thinking - like it!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/hea...1485000/148549 And I though there were strict rules for abortion in the UK? Is a contract like that sad or just sick?
MSWD for website building
Chris - I can't see that link - is it dead?
Doh!
Repair as soon as I can find it
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/hea...00/1488358.stm
Last edited by Chris H; Aug 14, 2001 at 16:44.
MSWD for website building
No.Is abortion murder?
Is a knife slicing through someone's throat murder? No.
Both are tools. Both can be used for a variety of purposes.
Don't generalize what can be done with tools. Not even guns equal murder since those can be used for useful tasks as well. It's not about the tools themselves, it's about how they're used.
www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.
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