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  1. #26
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Polymath
    For me what counts is the person underneath.
    I think that's probably what God is interested in to.

    Paul was off on a few things (like... 1 Corinthians 14:34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.) but he aslo spoke a lot of truth - he was only human after all.
    You have to remember a great deal of what he was saying was actually in letters of guidance to churches of that time.
    Although we can still draw some truths from them today.

    ANYWAY - as I have said before, countless times - people became believers and still do WITHOUT the Bible.

    Out of interest - which parts of the Bible do you so strongly disagree with???
    Last edited by z7; Jul 19, 2001 at 11:19.

  2. #27
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    Personally I disagree with the part about people having to go to church and make a lot of sacrifices for God. I don't think that any amount of praying, going to church or lighting candles can make a difference. It's how you live your life that matters. I don't have to believe in God in order to respect myself and other people. Instead of waisting my time going to church (sorry, don't mean to offend those who do) I use this time to be nice to others and to fulfill myself.

  3. #28
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Marina
    Personally I disagree with the part about people having to go to church and make a lot of sacrifices for God. I don't think that any amount of praying, going to church or lighting candles can make a difference.
    Which book and verse please?

  4. #29
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    ugh @ polymath... sounds like you've been reading "The Dead Sea Scrolls: Uncovered" or whatever book. I read it, very entertaining fictional interpretation of classical events and texts.

    Jesus/essene? Hardly
    st paul/apostolic conflict? I would like to see this "historical documentation"

    Further, the texts which have been "worked with" are completely discredited by every major historian (minor historians have tried to make a name for themselves (such as the 2 authors of the above book) by claiming outrageous things).

    So, I guess my point is, it isn't "historically proven" at all, and I dont' say taht becuase I'm a christian, but because I actually took the time to look into it.

    I'm one of those people who loves to have their faith challenged. I'll participate in scientific discussions, philosophical ones, religious ones with people who don't agree with me so that I can be challenged (often so much so that I seriously doubt the truth of God).

    I'm not one of the "conformers' and in reality many of my privately held views could get me kicked out of churches

    <this whole schpeal is to say that I have neither been hoodwinked or "talked into" believing the "party line">

    <also saying it because, apparently, putting text in bold is manipulative in these forums, don't want you to get in trouble with admins>
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  5. #30
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    Originally posted by z7

    Which book and verse please?
    I don't know if/where you can find it in the Bible. I just know that most Christians live by these rules.

  6. #31
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I think the distinction z7 is trying to make is that most christians YOU know are that way.

    All feminists I know are completely *****es who hate my guts. Doesn't mean feminism dictates this

    z7 and myself don't believe the things you've outlined above are demanded biblically (though certain sacrifices do honour god, I'm not sure how much of a sacrifice a 12 cent candle is...) and thus they are kinda "fringe-y".

    Not that it matters, I mean if you are happy there is no way to persuade you (not that I'm trying) to believe something different
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  7. #32
    Non-Member superharris's Avatar
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    Dark keep it up

    Dark I was impressed with your posts! Evidence should not be needed when backing up something that DOES Not have any I think they were a bit mad with your post so they went after your spelling etc... About guards being outside the door etc... Do you people get this? The bible most of it is not true or it may be true and it may have been hyped up way too much Read the bible it goes like a good novel

  8. #33
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Okay, yet another really bad troll...

    This deserves no response because once again it shows baiting, bad understanding of the subject matter and a "this is the truth, you know it" about something which is neither true or accepted by any major group.
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  9. #34
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    Originally posted by studiococo
    I think the distinction z7 is trying to make is that most christians YOU know are that way.

    All feminists I know are completely *****es who hate my guts. Doesn't mean feminism dictates this

    z7 and myself don't believe the things you've outlined above are demanded biblically (though certain sacrifices do honour god, I'm not sure how much of a sacrifice a 12 cent candle is...) and thus they are kinda "fringe-y".

    Not that it matters, I mean if you are happy there is no way to persuade you (not that I'm trying) to believe something different
    You're right, I guess not all christians are that way. In that case our believes are quite similar. (You call it God - I call it positive energy - nobody thinks that there's a old man with a beard sitting on a cloud).

  10. #35
    Non-Member superharris's Avatar
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    Studio Face it you question your self sure you can hide behind your words but in the end when you die you won't be disappointed because most likely you won't know it because well your dead

  11. #36
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    marina: I said I respected your opinion, not that I agreed I think there are certain fundamental differences which aren't worth arguing about.

    super: Pardon?
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  12. #37
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    That's OK. What differences? (If you have time to explain.)

  13. #38
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Naw, s'aright, maybe another day (I'm about to head home), no hurry, right?
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  14. #39
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    OK. Whenever you have time.

  15. #40
    Non-Member superharris's Avatar
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    This is what I am talking about bedlam even in Christianity no wonder they fight all the time about stupid sh**

  16. #41
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    Calm down superharris. Explain what you mean.

  17. #42
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    Re: Dark keep it up

    Originally posted by superharris
    Dark I was impressed with your posts! Evidence should not be needed when backing up something that DOES Not have any I think they were a bit mad with your post so they went after your spelling etc... About guards being outside the door etc... Do you people get this? The bible most of it is not true or it may be true and it may have been hyped up way too much Read the bible it goes like a good novel
    Superharris, I personally was not attacking anyone's spelling. I reposnded to DarkMonkey's post with logic and reason. I backed my point up with facts about crucifixion. You say that the Bible cannot be proven. Are you familiar with the scholar Josephus? He is (was) a well respected historian around the time of Christ. We have written proof in the form of manuscripts from him that corraborate much of the Biblical New Testament.

    Evidence is needed to "prove" any point. If DarkMonkey wanted to state his "opinion" then that is of course fine. However, as soon as you start to say that there is no proof of this and that, then facts are in order. He provided none, yet become upset when we didn't buy it.

    You say "Read the Bible, it sounds like a good novel." Well, have you taken it upon YOURSELF to read the Bible? There is a lot more than just God talking to the Israelites. There is science, history (factual proven history), geography and hygiene in addition to the 10 commandments (the basis for nearly every legal system on the planet). So, before you say that the Bible is not real, why don't you talk to the several hundred million Christians that live on this planet.
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  18. #43
    Non-Member superharris's Avatar
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    Ahhh. The old "There are millions of Christians on this planet can all of them be wrong" well yes.... The bible has little about science but then again everyone who reads the bible interprets it not just anyway but the way that they would like Creole I know you have backed up your opinons with what you call facts (though I doubt they are) Do I believe Jesus existed? Yes But I know his appearence and his behavior was different then what the bible depicts (did I spell that right?) I am too lazy to write 4 paragraphs do I know that I am right I am 99% sure Explain that to the other millions of non-christians in the world

  19. #44
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    The bible depicts his appearance?

    What evidence do you have his behaviour is different then every manuscript written about him.

    The point creole was trying to make about "the millions" wasn't that becuase people believe it, thus it is true. The point he was making is that millions live by it, and before you off-the-cuff dismiss the beliefs held by millions perhaps you yourself should look into that claim.
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  20. #45
    Non-Member superharris's Avatar
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    does the bible depict his apperance umm no but does every church in the world yes? you cannot lie when you think of jesus you see a image of a skinny white (should be a bit darker if he was a mid-eastern jew) with long hair/beard

  21. #46
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Whoa whoa, back the truck up man. What some churches do is irrelevant here. Who here is defending individual churches? I back The Bible, and Jesus Christ. I cannot fully back an individual church, because a church is run by people -- people who are inherently flawed and sinful.

    Do I believe Jesus existed? Yes But I know his appearence and his behavior was different then what the bible depicts.

    Perhaps you meant to say "what some churches depict", but the fact of the matter is that you did say "The Bible depicts" instead. Anyway, I don't think Jesus was white. I think he had darker skin than white people today...I think everyone did. I also don't think it really pertains to things here anyway.

    Well put studiococo: no one is saying that because roughly 30% of the world believes in it, that it's true...but it certainly means it is not a crazy fly-by-night theory. It is obviously something serious to be considered.

    Ya see, what really bugs me is that labels are tossed about left and right. When people think of Jesus, they think of some guy in a toga-like robe and sandals, with long brown (or gray) hair. Why? Why do we think of little guys with bifurcated tails and hayforks when we think of demons? These are odd characterizations, and they have a lot of people thinking of religion as some sort of children's activity...simply because some people made light of these otherwise serious subjects at some point.

  22. #47
    Fried Gold Polymath's Avatar
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    Studicoco:
    I'm not sure how you can dismiss the dead sea scrolls - they have been thoroughly authenticated. They include the oldest copy of the book of Isaiah in existence by a thousand years, a beautiful copy of the book of Psalms, text from the book of Exodus, and many documents written during Jesus' lifetime. . They have been displayed until last month in the National Gallery of Victoria in Australia, I'm sure they'd be disappointed by your news that the scrolls are discredited.
    Nope, I'll say it again, these texts have been authenticated, (but I agree there are sensationalists out there who will do anything to sell a book, and that holds true for this subject) and rather than suggest I haven't taken time to look into it, (there were only two years at school when I didn't get first place in the whole year in the religious studies exams) you'd be better off wondering why places like the National Gallery of Victoria, and many other museums like it, have displayed the scrolls and accepted them as genuine. Perhaps you should have another look?
    Anyway, the scrolls don't discredit religion, they wholeheatedly support it. The Essenes were famous for their piety, hence the loads of biblical texts found. They also offer a contemporary view of events in the region, which as I said paints rather a different picture than that you see in the bible. I don't see why that is hard to accept.
    Of course, if you can tell me who's discredited who's theories and on what grounds, that's more grist to the mill. I may well have picked up duff info along the way. I haven't read the book you mentioned, so I can't say whether it's good or bad, true or false.
    You certainly don't sound hoodwinked, though.
    Also, I didn't know bold text was an irritant here, sorry about that.

  23. #48
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I hate to nitpick, but could you break your posts up into paragraphs? They're much, much easier to read that way.

  24. #49
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    polymath, sorry for any confusion. My post wasn't meant to say the DSS were wrong. In fact they are quite true, however certain of the researchers claimed to have found a "code" linking the scrolls to the essenes. They then went out on an expedition and apparently "found" (if you know the archeological process in the east at the time you'd know that this "finding" is ludicrous at best) that the scrolls were in fact found in a cave system apparently belonging to a large essene colony (the essenes hated caves, but never mind).

    My comment was simply that you seem to be grabbing info from this camp, and I'm truly sorry about my outburst but the reality is that jesus being an essene is no more fact than michael jackson being muslim.

    There is very little proof, and the "proof" that there is is based upon very poor archeological methods and has not been substantiated (though the DSS have).

    Anyways, it's completely a side point
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  25. #50
    SitePoint Zealot DarkMonkey's Avatar
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    It has come to my attention I tend to make personal attacks when I'm aiming to state my opinion. However much I disagree with somebody I tend to get in the habit of simply saying it's wrong without thinking. If I were to have a conversation about this with a person face to face if I did something like that they would correct me and I would instantly rephrase what I said. On the net a 'passionate habit' can be seen to be highly ignorant... Entire arguments can be dismissed because of the nature of message boards, of course an issue like this is relivent anywhere. So I guess this medium just doesn't complement my thoughts on things very well.

    That said; I still dont' personally believe the bible contains the words of god or the ideas of god, I don't think there is a god in that sense -- the sense that he just creates humans and then watches them do things and waits for them to die and plays ping pong or whatever, the universe is so crazily huge I believe it would be self-centered of me to think any higher being was somehow watching out for me or caring about what I do, the only person who can really do that (Like said in another thread aboug od) is yourself. I think I'm my own god, and any kindness, compassion etc. strengthens myself as my own god.

    That said how could any of us possibly begin to comprehend what is possible. Nothing actually makes sense anyway.


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