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  1. #76
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    I am still shocked at how much used IE5 & IE4 get, no wonder Microsoft has issues when trying to get everyone standardized with IE6.

  2. #77
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    I think that every IE version absolutely sucks, I just don't even see a point in bothering with it. Once you experience a real web browser there really isn't a turnint back.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalman
    I have used IE then mozilla then opera 7 then firefox and now I'm thinking to switch back to opera 8 it has become so much better since opera 7.

    Opera 7 was good, but opera 8 is just fantastic everyone that is saying firefox is better than opera 8 has never really used opera 8. Not just try it for one hour really use it.

    The only really bad thing about opera is the name opera. Really big mistake of the creators how can you promote something with a name opera.
    The name Opera is ok I think.Maybe because the opera creators is from Norway ( like I am ) they made that name. The name have no point really.I have never tryed Opera but I will deffently do that soon. if I like it I might buy it

    And again,dont say Opera sucks just because "only" 10 - 15 millions have it,
    how many have mac? not many but do it suck? no it dont

    Windows is just lucky they was early out making an OS.
    Have a nice day

  4. #79
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    I think that blackbm makes a good point. I think having an outside view helps with someone who isn't too tied up with Opera or Firefox.

  5. #80
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    windows is lucky being first? Mac came before Windows buddy. Oh, we're talking about browsers, sorry.

    There are 2 general kinds of users, the ones that want all the features and the ones that want none of them. Opera/Mozilla appeal to those users who wants their browsers to make them tea in the morning, Firefox appeals to the users that are attracted by simplicity. There is no better browser, there is no comparison. They may go under the same category in download.com, but they are targetting different users.

    I use firefox because it does everything a webbrowser is expected to do and nothing else. I downloaded a few extensions that I know I'll use, and that's it. What am I gonna do with mouse gestures (which firefox supports btw), text to speech, and all the other crap if I don't want or use them?
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  6. #81
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivehosting.com
    I use firefox because it does everything a webbrowser is expected to do and nothing else. I downloaded a few extensions that I know I'll use, and that's it. What am I gonna do with mouse gestures (which firefox supports btw), text to speech, and all the other crap if I don't want or use them?
    This is what Opera users are failing to understand. This isn't about the amount of diskspace the programs take up or how big the download is. The download sizes of Opera and Firefox are small enough that most users really won't take this into consideration. What users care about is if the product has the features they want and doesn't have the features they don't want.
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  7. #82
    SitePoint Wizard megamanXplosion's Avatar
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    Opera users aren't failing to understand what you're pointing out. Mouse gestures, email, rss, irc, voice, spell checking, etc. are not enabled by default because they are not the typical features that people want. If all you want is a basic web browser, that is what you get with Opera when you install it. If you want more functionality in Opera then you can get it, just like Firefox (a concept many Firefox users fail to understand: they work practically the same way regarding the introduction of features.) Opera users understand the concept perfectly fine, KLB.

  8. #83
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megamanXplosion
    Opera users aren't failing to understand what you're pointing out. Mouse gestures, email, rss, irc, voice, spell checking, etc. are not enabled by default because they are not the typical features that people want. If all you want is a basic web browser, that is what you get with Opera when you install it. If you want more functionality in Opera then you can get it, just like Firefox (a concept many Firefox users fail to understand: they work practically the same way regarding the introduction of features.) Opera users understand the concept perfectly fine, KLB.
    No they don't understand and neither do you. What vivehosting.com and I were saying is that many people like our selves choose which browser to use not just for the features in includes but for what features it excludes. If I have a choice of have the functionality I don't want disabled or not having it at all, I will choose the latter. This is what we are saying.

    This is the reason Mozilla failed when Firefox succeeded. Mozilla, like Opera, tried to do everything, but this is not what people wanted. What people wanted was the ability to tailor a product to ONLY CONTAIN the features they wanted to use this is a fundemental difference between Opera and Firefox. Disabling features by default is not the same as not including them at all. Disabled or not, too much functionality is well, too much functionality.

    This isn't to say that there aren't users out there like yourself who want a browser with lots of extra features like Opera has; it is simply saying that there are many reasons why people who choose Firefox over Opera are choosing it beyond just marketing buzz and Opera's cost.
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  9. #84
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    To add to your understanding, I'd love to move to linux and away from windows at least for my business machine, but I haven't because most distros give you too much. I prefer a barebones OS that I can add to rather than an OS that gives me everything and makes me have to remove it all because I won't use it. Currently, symphonyos.com shows potential to be the desktop linux distro of my dreams, pretty and minimal. If they include 10 applications by default, that's more than they originally planned. It'll include just the basic necessities and that's it and that is exactly what pulls me in.
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  10. #85
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    Are you sure you aren't somehow Asa in disguise? You sound just like him with his latest views on Linux (which I agree to some point).

    I use firefox because it does everything a webbrowser is expected to do and nothing else. I downloaded a few extensions that I know I'll use, and that's it. What am I gonna do with mouse gestures (which firefox supports btw), text to speech, and all the other crap if I don't want or use them?
    Well some of the features integrated into Deer Park are long time features of Opera, and part of a browser - reorganizing tabs and instant back using the cache. I think small essential features like this are what make Opera a good browser for any user. Main features like a powerful RSS reader, good bookmark management, keyboard shortcuts, mouse guesters, a pretty good download manager, etc.

    Keyboard shortcuts are a blessing on the laptop. Mouse guesters are actually quite useful. I thought they were stupid at first until I started to use them.

    I do agree that I want my web browser to do all that plus a cup of tea. Mozilla just does that and a crappy cup of coffee. I haven't used Mozilla too much though for a full blown Opera comparison. The problem with Firefox is that it isn't as simple as people seem to make it.

    I cannot figure out how to do anything in Firefox, it takes me asking someone. How simple is that? For the longest time I couldn't figure out how to make a page open in a new tab. In Opera and Safari I press Shift+click (Command + click for Mac). Well Firefox is too great and is Ctrl+click. Small things like these are what make FF slightly too complex.

    I prefer a barebones OS that I can add to rather than an OS that gives me everything and makes me have to remove it all because I won't use it
    Windows is a huge bloated system. I cannot remove any application that came with it? I have to say that you have no idea what you're talking about. Plus in a Linux distro 10 applications won't cut it. Applications are packages, usually they're used in the same manner. Ten applications wouldn't even give you enough drivers to run the distro.

    it is simply saying that there are many reasons why people who choose Firefox over Opera are choosing it beyond just marketing buzz and Opera's cost.
    Should I start naming reasons why I don't chose Firefox over Opera? I could name plenty.

  11. #86
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charmedlover
    Are you sure you aren't somehow Asa in disguise? You sound just like him with his latest views on Linux (which I agree to some point).



    Quote Originally Posted by charmedlover
    I do agree that I want my web browser to do all that plus a cup of tea. Mozilla just does that and a crappy cup of coffee. I haven't used Mozilla too much though for a full blown Opera comparison. The problem with Firefox is that it isn't as simple as people seem to make it.
    When comparing Opera to Mozilla there is no contest. Mozilla sucked big time as far as I was concerned, hence I used registered version of Opera (I really hated the ads and was willing to pay to get rid of them).


    Quote Originally Posted by charmedlover
    Should I start naming reasons why I don't chose Firefox over Opera? I could name plenty.
    There is no need to. Our point or at least my point has been that we each choose our browser of choice for our own reasons and that contrary to what many Opera users may want to believe, the ads in Opera's toolbar is only a small part of why we prefer Firefox over Opera.

    This isn't saying that one browser is better than the other because which is better is a matter of personal preference. Trying to convince an Opera user that Firefox is superior to Opera or trying to convince a Firefox user that Opera is superior is a stupid waste of time.

    Each user has come to their conclusion as to which browser is better and based on their own personal critera which is probably based on sound reasoning.
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  12. #87
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    "I cannot figure out how to do anything in Firefox, it takes me asking someone. How simple is that? For the longest time I couldn't figure out how to make a page open in a new tab. In Opera and Safari I press Shift+click (Command + click for Mac). Well Firefox is too great and is Ctrl+click. Small things like these are what make FF slightly too complex."

    Sounds like the problem is being an Opera user and expecting Firefox to share the same shortcuts rather than a complexity. You seem to think Opera's shortcuts should be copied as if it's part of the w3c standard.

    "Windows is a huge bloated system. I cannot remove any application that came with it? I have to say that you have no idea what you're talking about. Plus in a Linux distro 10 applications won't cut it. Applications are packages, usually they're used in the same manner. Ten applications wouldn't even give you enough drivers to run the distro."

    Maybe your preinstalled manufacturer computer gave you a crapload of applications (and spyware) but windows isn't THAT bloated. I said applications not packages... I obviously meant user applications, not drivers, libraries, or OS-embedded stuff. There are distros with 3 web browsers, a few art programs, several editors, etc instead of just one of each which is what I'm talking about while symphony will stay as minimal as possible. one browser, one email client, etc.

    You seem to just want to pick a fight from your responses... we are only saying there is no better browser because they aren't doing the same thing (one wants to be feature-packed and the other doesn't) and you are dying to imply opera rules all and we are stupid for thinking otherwise.
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  13. #88
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    When I mean applications with Windows I mean IE, Windows Media Player, NotePad (although I don't want to remove it, lol), Windows Movie Maker, etc. You cannot remove these from Windows.

    Sounds like the problem is being an Opera user and expecting Firefox to share the same shortcuts rather than a complexity. You seem to think Opera's shortcuts should be copied as if it's part of the w3c standard.
    No, this shortcuts (the main one that are universal, not Opera special ones like opening the Panel) work in Safari too.

  14. #89
    SitePoint Zealot Digitalman's Avatar
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    The reason I switched to Opera 8 is because it's much faster than any browser.
    Try browsing a forum very fast with firefox or IE and then try again with Opera 8 you will see what I mean. Opera 8 has the fastest JavaScript interpreter and a lot of forums use JavaScript.

  15. #90
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalman
    The reason I switched to Opera 8 is because it's much faster than any browser.
    This is exactly the point that vivehosting.com and I are trying to make. We each choose our preferred browser based on what features or capabilities are important to us. Some like apples, some like bananas, there is no sense in arguing which fruit is better. The same is true with Firefox and Opera. Some like Firefox, some like Opera, there is no sense trying to argue that one browser is inherently better than the other because this is a matter of personal preference.
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  16. #91
    SitePoint Zealot Digitalman's Avatar
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    Ken your right; some like it hot, some like it cold.

  17. #92
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    So I guess that some people want a slower browser, I guess I can live with that.

  18. #93
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charmedlover
    So I guess that some people want a slower browser, I guess I can live with that.
    Charmedlover, obviously you are under the misimpression that the speed difference is so significant as to really matter. Quite frankly I have never expierenced enough of a speed difference between Opera and Firefox for me to really care which was faster. I think most users are in this boat. Is a Porche faster than a Farri? Who really cares, both are plenty fast.

    There are so many factors that go into the determining which browser best suits one's needs that the speed difference is so small that it just doesn't matter to most users.
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  19. #94
    Colonel Jack O'neill Josh_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLB
    Charmedlover, obviously you are under the misimpression that the speed difference is so significant as to really matter. Quite frankly I have never expierenced enough of a speed difference between Opera and Firefox for me to really care which was faster. I think most users are in this boat. Is a Porche faster than a Farri? Who really cares, both are plenty fast.

    There are so many factors that go into the determining which browser best suits one's needs that the speed difference is so small that it just doesn't matter to most users.
    That's exactly how I feel.

    I have Firefox and Opera installed on my computer, and I always use firefox. I like the features, extensions, themes and overall feel more than I like Opera's. The very marginal speed difference alone is not enough to get me to switch. Not to mention the ads.

  20. #95
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    I've noticed the difference when I have tons of tabs open, and on my older computer. That's about it. I guess I'll just say "to hell with speed"!

  21. #96
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charmedlover
    I've noticed the difference when I have tons of tabs open, and on my older computer.
    I currently have 14 Firefox tabs open with no speed issues. I also have 20 windows open including two MS Access databases, an Excel spreadsheet two word documents. Just prior to checking out the latest in this thread, I closed four Firefox tabs I didn't need and closed Adobe Photoshop.

    I hear Opera users tout the multiple tabs issue all the time, but don't see what they are talking about. I routinely run 8-12 tabs and usually have more than a dozen applications open (in fact I use a two row task bar). For reference, my computer runs a 1.8 gHz processor. My computer is fast, but it is no Farri. My wife routinely runs multiple Firefox tabs on her computer, which is a 1.4 gHz machine. I even run Firefox on an old Pentium 166 running Win95. Granted I can't open more than tabs on that dinosaur, but Firefox runs just as well as Opera and other applications on that machine.

    Quite frankly the multiple tab/slow computer issue is a bunch of FUD that Opera users to try and trash Firefox. The reality is that for most users, who don't typically have two dozen tabs open at one time, the speed issues Opera users try to tout just isn't an issue. Furthermore, most users aren't still using dinosaurs like my P166.
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  22. #97
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    When I open Firefox (multiple tabs) is appears that tabs take a few seconds longer to load than in Opera. This lag doesn't bother me too much, but I still notice it. While I can open twenty pages in Opera and they all load fast, it appears that Firefox uses some odd threading in the program or something for loading as it just isn't as fast as Opera.

    I don't know how much I can prove this, maybe it's just me. Who knows?

  23. #98
    SitePoint Zealot Digitalman's Avatar
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    If you're not a fast surfer you don't need a fast browser.
    The same with a car if you don't drive fast you don't need a fast car.

  24. #99
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charmedlover
    I don't know how much I can prove this, maybe it's just me. Who knows?
    Whether it could be proved or not is sensless and irrelevant. 99.99% of users aren't going to make a habit of opening 20 tabs. I find more than 12 tabs being open a pain from the simple standpoint of knowing what every tab is. I personally fluxtuate between 6 and 15 tabs open at any given time.

    Could speed be an issue with 20 tabs open? Sure. Does it really matter? Not for most people. Will it be fixed? In time yes, I understand v1.5 will have some signficant improvements as will v2.0.
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  25. #100
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    I do agree that I don't usually have more than five tabs open. I've had 50 at one time, but I was frantic about getting some last minute error fixed that I was looking through tons of results in Google for it. Talk about confusing. :S

    To be honest I think having tabs is probably good enough. I cannot live without them. Lol.


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