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  1. #1
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Opera gets some courage


  2. #2
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    I've never seen an issue with Opera being undercounted. Its UA string always has the word "Opera" in it unless a site specific UA.ini instruction is added.

    In fact, MSIE spoofs Netscape 4:
    "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1)"
    Safari spoofs Netscape 5 and Gecko:
    "Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/125.5.6 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/125.12"
    Even Firefox spoofs Netscape 5:
    "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050716 Firefox/1.0.6"
    So whats the difference with Opera using:
    "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; en) Opera 8.01"

    Any decent stats package created in the last number of years should have the ability to properly count Opera by simply looking for the word "Opera" in the UA string. If all browsers were to report themselves properly, the first string of characters in the UA string would be the browser name followed by a slash followed by the browser's version. For instance:

    Firefox should be: Firefox/1.0.6 (Windows NT 5.1; U) [en]
    MSIE should be: MSIE/6.0 (Windows NT 5.1; U) [en]
    Safari should be: Safari/125.12 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en)

    As long as each browser uses their own unique string (e.g. "Opera", "Safari", "Firefox", "MSIE", etc.) somewhere in the string any half way decent stats package should be able to give credit where credit is due.

    The excuse that Opera's market share is undercounted because Opera "spoofs" MSIE doesn't hold water because Opera normally reports that it is Opera, it just doesn't do so following published specifications. Just as almost all browsers don't follow published specifications for identifying themselves.
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  3. #3
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Last edited by AnOmAlY_; Sep 23, 2005 at 08:50.

  4. #4
    SitePoint Wizard megamanXplosion's Avatar
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    There are some sites on the web that respond to IE instead
    of Opera and they should keep this feature.
    Opera now has the ability to spoof the user agent string for individual sites, like pncbank.com. This makes it a painless process, for the user, to convert to identifying as Opera

  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard
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    The excuse that Opera's market share is undercounted because Opera "spoofs" MSIE doesn't hold water because Opera normally reports that it is Opera, it just doesn't do so following published specifications. Just as almost all browsers don't follow published specifications for identifying themselves.
    Actually most stat programs (Awstats I'm pretty sure) don't count an Opera hit when it is used to identify itself as IE or Mozilla, despite the fact that Opera is still in the user agent string. This is one reason why Opera finally decided to identify as Opera by default. I think that it does have some affect on the stats, as I've met tons of Opera users who had no idea about the user agent spoofing - although most of these were basic users, and not like myself.

    I've had to identify as IE one time, as the site wouldn't let me in as Opera or Mozilla. Most sites that block Opera will gladly accept me as Mozilla . I'd rather be identified as Mozilla than IE any day - but I prefer Opera whenever possible.

  6. #6
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charmedlover
    Actually most stat programs (Awstats I'm pretty sure) don't count an Opera hit when it is used to identify itself as IE or Mozilla, despite the fact that Opera is still in the user agent string.
    Awstats does detect Opera just fine as I use it as my primary stats package. Given that Awstats is open source, I'm quite certain that Opera users early in the game made sure that Awstats correctly identified the Opera web browser. Also I know for certain that Analog detects Opera, as does http://thecounter.com.

    Given how buthered UA strings are, most stats packages have a cascading methodology for identifying browsers. For instance they might first check to see if the word "Opera" was in the UA string. If it were, they would count the hit towards Opera. If not they might check to see if there were the string "MSIECrawler" was in the UA string if so, it would count as a non-viewed hit. This cascading methodology would continue until the entire list of browser types were tested.

    Yes a few years ago, one might have been able to argue that stats packages undercounted Opera due to the fact that many developers had never heard of Opera. Now, however, most people responsible for developing browser identification routines are quite aware of Opera and would presumably want to know how many users there are who use it. At the very least, any stats package the properly identifies Firefox will be also properly identifying Opera as Firefox is a fairly recent browser.
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  7. #7
    Web development Company chrisranjana's Avatar
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    It pays to always have an unique identity.
    Chris, Programmer/Developer,
    www.chrisranjana.com

  8. #8
    SitePoint Evangelist CapitalWebHost's Avatar
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    No one uses Opera anyway. Why pay for a browser you can get for free (and yes, having ads on your browsers interface is paying for it).

  9. #9
    Barefoot on the Moon! silver trophy Force Flow's Avatar
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    I use opera. So do a lot of other techs I know.

  10. #10
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapitalWebHost
    No one uses Opera anyway.
    Well there are a few souls who use Opera. Based on July 2005 (http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2005/July/browser.php) figures from http://thecounter.com, Opera had a marketshare of 0.69% (Firefox had 7.74%). Since TheCounter does't show fractional percents, I had to divide each browser's count on TheCounter by the total count for all browsers.
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  11. #11
    SitePoint Wizard
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    No one uses Opera anyway. Why pay for a browser you can get for free (and yes, having ads on your browsers interface is paying for it).
    You must be new to the Opera debates, because you should never said that in front of me. Opera has a quite large user base. You have to think that percentages really don't help too much really show the numbers.

    Let's say you have 100,000 people. 1% of these people is 1000 people (note I'm using 1% because you have to average in the fact that not every website has the same browser usage). Now imagine how many people there are in the world. I'm going with 5 billion (5,000,000,000). 1% of that is 50,000,000. Now say a site like Google all of a sudden just blocked Opera users. Now those fifty million people won't like Google (usually people view a browser as a religion, so they won't switch in this scenario). Opera matters damn well.

    Plus you also have to realize that not every website has the same browser usage. My website is 70% Opera, 25% Firefox, and 5% IE (thank God). I've had months where Firefox usage is at 2%. Since that's such a small number to you should I just forget about everything working nice in Firefox? No.

    If you don't find 1% enough to worry about, how is 8% compared to IE's percentages? Not very much. Let's just go your way and forget about Opera and Firefox because they're such a small percentage.

  12. #12
    SitePoint Evangelist Unit7285's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charmedlover
    My website is 70% Opera, 25% Firefox, and 5% IE (thank God).
    Why is that, out of interest?

  13. #13
    Level 8 Chinese guy Archbob's Avatar
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    If I had to sacrifice the users of one browser to optimize it for the two others, Opera would have to be the one to go though.

  14. #14
    SitePoint Wizard
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    I run an eZine and most of the long time members are also Opera users. There are some that swear by Firefox, and I'm working on convincing them. A bit tough though, lol. I don't have any main members using IE, those are usually our first time visitors.

    I don't think that excluding Opera or Firefox is really helpful in design. I always design in Opera. I always test in Firefox, and only once have I even had to make a change in my CSS for Firefox. IE is a different story though. The standards that are supported in FF/Opera may not be the strongest, but there is enough to keep designs the same.

    The only issues that a person might have with Opera usually deal with Ajax or some other JavaScript technology.

  15. #15
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archbob
    If I had to sacrifice the users of one browser to optimize it for the two others, Opera would have to be the one to go though.
    I'm no fan of Opera as everyone knows. With that said, there is no reason to have to do browser specific web design for most sites. The only exceptions might be if you were designing something like a content management system and needed to support a WYSIWYG form editor or if for some sick sadistic reason you insisted on using Active-X controls. Any site that is properly designed using W3C HTML/CSS specifications and tested using a modern standards compliant browser (e.g. a browser other than MSIE) should function 99% correct in all modern browsers.

    The cause of most browser specific display issues in modern browsers comes not from inadequacies in the browsers, but from bad coding and programming errors in the website that has display issues.
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  16. #16
    SitePoint Wizard
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    I think the only issues with proper coding are browsers that don't support them all the way, such as IE. Most issues I deal with are CSS or the inability to properly server XHTML, and only in IE.

    @ KLB: I just noticed that you block Opera users who aren't registered on your websites. I really need to get around to registering my version, lol.

    Edit: KLB. You shouldn't block all Opera users. I just went to my registered version and I still cannot access your websites.

  17. #17
    Bad Ass Mother F#$%^& Devious's Avatar
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    I wouldn't mind if Opera just dissapeared.
    There is no place for Opera in this Firefox/IE & Safari world.

    Of course, those who are reading this Opera thread are probably Opera users, thus, flame on.
    Logo Design & Identity Branding Consultant.

  18. #18
    SitePoint Wizard Young Twig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charmedlover
    Now imagine how many people there are in the world.
    Not everyone has the internet.

  19. #19
    SitePoint Zealot howardroark`'s Avatar
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    i don't want to say anything negative about opera, only because i never use it - so i don't know its features.

    what does opera have that firefox doesn't have, anyway?

  20. #20
    SitePoint Zealot
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    Opera has a text-to-speech reader, tab reorganizing, loads of options, better page size changing (it changes the entire page, not just the text), and lots more.

    People pay for Opera because they want these features or don't like FireFox. I still don't see why people hate companies because they charge for software--someone's got to make a living.

    I personally use K-Meleon since it's nearly as fast as IE in terms of loading time.

  21. #21
    SitePoint Wizard
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    I wouldn't mind if Opera just dissapeared.
    There is no place for Opera in this Firefox/IE & Safari world.
    I wouldn't mind if you disappeared, you're just one person out of a billion. Who cares? (couldn't find a good one for flaming, lol)

    Safari has a meagre percentage base too. I believe it has less than Opera, I'm not sure though.

    Opera has tons more features than Firefox. To name a few I like (not yet mentioned):

    - M2 mail client
    - Mouse gestures
    - Tons of keyboard shortcuts (also customizable)
    - Complete control of the interface
    - Notes system
    - IRC Chat
    - RSS Reader (a very thorough one)
    - Contact manager
    - Fit to window width
    - Wand tool
    - Fast forwarding (quite useful)
    - Complete Cookie and Wand control
    - Page Zoom (the whole page, not just the text)
    - Small-screen mode (testing or if you're using a cellphone)
    - Full-screen mode (actually fullscreen using a presentation media type, not just the website larger)

    Besides that, Opera is secure (pretty much as secure as FF in my opinion) and much faster than Firefox. The MDI inteface for 'tabs' is a much more efficient system that Firefox's. Opera also had most of the features first, copied by Firefox.

    K-Meleon is a much better usage of the Gecko browser. I feel that it runs much better on older machines that Firefox. I've only used it a few times, although I booted it on an older machine and it didn't seem to have too much lag to it.

  22. #22
    SitePoint Zealot howardroark`'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dotDan
    Opera has a text-to-speech reader, tab reorganizing, loads of options, better page size changing (it changes the entire page, not just the text), and lots more.

    People pay for Opera because they want these features or don't like FireFox. I still don't see why people hate companies because they charge for software--someone's got to make a living.

    I personally use K-Meleon since it's nearly as fast as IE in terms of loading time.
    text-to-speech reader? that's nice... now i know how they are able to sell it...

  23. #23
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charmedlover
    Safari has a meagre percentage base too. I believe it has less than Opera, I'm not sure though.
    Based on stats from Feb through July 2005 from TheCounter.com, Opera has a smaller marketshare than Safari. As of July 2005, Opera comes in sixth place behind MSIE6.x, Firefox, MSIE 5.x, Safari and Netscape 7 in that order.

    I use TheCounter.com for stats because:
    1) they have a reasonably large and diverse market sample;
    2) they have been around for years;
    3) their data is publicly accessible without a subscription fee.
    4) their stats are reflective of browser stats I have seen from other sources and the browser stats of websites I have personally monitored over the years (where I made sure Opera was counted correctly).


    Browser stats from http://TheCounter.com
    Feb 2005
    1. MSIE 6.x 152735479 - 80.78%
    2. MSIE 5.x 18358342 - 9.71%
    3. Mozilla 9006208
    4. Unknown 2691650
    5. Safari 1901346 - 1.01%
    6. Netscape 7.x 1699657
    7. Opera x.x 1070087 - 0.49%
    8. Netscape comp. 928349
    9. MSIE 4.x 314223
    10. Netscape 4.x 212969
    11. Konqueror 74056
    12. Netscape 6.x 63180
    13. Netscape 5.x 13609
    14. MSIE 3.x 9977
    15. Netscape 3.x 5737
    16. Netscape 2.x 572
    17. Netscape 1.x 62
    Total 189085503

    March 2005
    1. MSIE 6.x 216283916 - 81.45%
    2. MSIE 5.x 24510826 - 9.23%
    3. Mozilla 12993406
    4. Unknown 3436998
    5. Safari 2641840 - 1.00%
    6. Netscape 7.x 2193287
    7. Opera x.x 1378367 - 0.52%
    8. Netscape comp. 1220120
    9. MSIE 4.x 438965
    10. Netscape 4.x 253799
    11. Konqueror 93273
    12. Netscape 6.x 77572
    13. Netscape 5.x 15395
    14. MSIE 3.x 13682
    15. Netscape 3.x 6676
    16. Netscape 2.x 626
    17. Netscape 1.x 110
    Total 265558858

    April 2005
    1. MSIE 6.x 221218007 - 82.25%
    2. MSIE 5.x 23717309 - 8.82%
    3. Mozilla 13372326
    4. Unknown 3034883
    5. Safari 2545973 - 0.95%
    6. Netscape 7.x 1893841
    7. Opera x.x 1375042 - 0.51%
    8. Netscape comp. 1021097
    9. MSIE 4.x 349802
    10. Netscape 4.x 237366
    11. Konqueror 91268
    12. Netscape 6.x 63059
    13. Netscape 5.x 17362
    14. MSIE 3.x 12101
    15. Netscape 3.x 6351
    16. Netscape 2.x 545
    17. Netscape 1.x 232
    Total 268956564

    May 2005
    1. MSIE 6.x 226719789 - 82.95%
    2. MSIE 5.x 21394345 - 7.83%
    3. Mozilla 14610550
    4. Unknown 2916627
    5. Safari 2769462 - 1.01%
    6. Netscape 7.x 1809046
    7. Opera x.x 1379298 - 0.51%
    8. Netscape comp. 983018
    9. MSIE 4.x 327758
    10. Netscape 4.x 218588
    11. Konqueror 92946
    12. Netscape 6.x 58556
    13. Netscape 5.x 25988
    14. MSIE 3.x 12748
    15. Netscape 3.x 6427
    16. Netscape 2.x 637
    17. Netscape 1.x 97
    Total 273325880


    June 2005
    1. MSIE 6.x 222798710 - 83.94%
    2. MSIE 5.x 17346275 - 6.54%
    3. FireFox 15136569 - 5.70%
    4. Unknown 2824927
    5. Safari 2675065 - 1.01%
    6. Netscape 7.x 1593073
    7. Opera x.x 1394065 - 0.53%
    8. Netscape comp. 959671
    9. MSIE 4.x 299567
    10. Netscape 4.x 230479
    11. Konqueror 94219
    12. Netscape 6.x 52736
    13. Netscape 5.x 19700
    14. MSIE 3.x 10008
    15. Netscape 3.x 6291
    16. Netscape 2.x 597
    17. Netscape 1.x 81
    Total 265442033

    July 2005
    1. MSIE 6.x 60699241 - 82.67%
    2. FireFox 5684885 - 7.74%
    3. MSIE 5.x 3495467 - 4.76%
    4. Safari 1093341 - 1.49%
    5. Unknown 905020
    6. Netscape 7.x 538689
    7. Opera x.x 506881 - 0.69%
    8. Netscape comp. 296472
    9. MSIE 4.x 80300
    10. Netscape 4.x 55666
    11. Konqueror 36499
    12. Netscape 6.x 18190
    13. Netscape 5.x 8622
    14. MSIE 3.x 3459
    15. Netscape 3.x 1580
    16. Netscape 2.x 344
    17. Netscape 1.x 13
    Total 73424669
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  24. #24
    SitePoint Zealot
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    Quote Originally Posted by charmedlover
    I wouldn't mind if you disappeared, you're just one person out of a billion. Who cares? (couldn't find a good one for flaming, lol)

    Safari has a meagre percentage base too. I believe it has less than Opera, I'm not sure though.

    Opera has tons more features than Firefox. To name a few I like (not yet mentioned):

    - M2 mail client
    - Mouse gestures
    - Tons of keyboard shortcuts (also customizable)
    - Complete control of the interface
    - Notes system
    - IRC Chat
    - RSS Reader (a very thorough one)
    - Contact manager
    - Fit to window width
    - Wand tool
    - Fast forwarding (quite useful)
    - Complete Cookie and Wand control
    - Page Zoom (the whole page, not just the text)
    - Small-screen mode (testing or if you're using a cellphone)
    - Full-screen mode (actually fullscreen using a presentation media type, not just the website larger)

    Besides that, Opera is secure (pretty much as secure as FF in my opinion) and much faster than Firefox. The MDI inteface for 'tabs' is a much more efficient system that Firefox's. Opera also had most of the features first, copied by Firefox.

    K-Meleon is a much better usage of the Gecko browser. I feel that it runs much better on older machines that Firefox. I've only used it a few times, although I booted it on an older machine and it didn't seem to have too much lag to it.
    Not to mention it also takes up too much screen properties. I like my minimal Firefox. Regarding code part, I've came up more with glitches in Opera but not Firefox or even IE6.

    Firefox is just right for everyday user. Opera seems confusing to some of my ordinary friends.

  25. #25
    SitePoint Zealot ronald_poi's Avatar
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    opera doesnt look like a great browser for me... and ok charmedlover (hehe), i know it have a lot of great features (more than firefox as you said) but i still prefer firefox. like snecx said, firefox is for the everyday user... and i'll add better for the web-developer.

    sitepoint released a book about it!... that say a lot.


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