WinFSOriginally Posted by Jeremy W.
WinFSOriginally Posted by Jeremy W.
it was _supposed_ to be in there, it isn't now. Now i agree it isn't a "feature", but it's something they didn't apply to the OS. So no, not a feature, just a BASIC thing they haven't put in.Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
So you want a Mac and can't afford it, but the only one you find good enough for you is their most expensive model?Originally Posted by geosite
Nope, the "basic" thing is still there. Everything about searching that WinFS allowed will still be there. What won't be there is the common API set that would allow developers to extend the metabase for their own use.Originally Posted by Beaker
But as far as users see, everything about "Vista Search" will still be there.
Also, WinFS wasn't dropped, it was pushed back. It'll likely be in SP1 in late 2007/early 2008. Free, of course.
Once again, feel free to name a SINGLE FEATURE that was dropped from Vista.
it would also appear that Avalon was dropped, but will probably be released later.
Tell me one thing that Vista will do that XP won't? Because reportedly Avalon and WinFS will be back-ported to XP? Strikes me there is _zero_ reason to upgrade. Especially as the OS is likely to demand even more resources. I only switch to XP for my gaming rig because 2k is no longer full supported.
Dropped from the orignal release was what I was refering too. WinFS was modified so it could be released at the original date but it is crippled. Beleive it or not it was one such feature, regardless of what your definition is. (http://news.com.com/2100-1016_3-5212077.html)
Specifically in that article, "Last month, Jim Allchin, the Microsoft executive in charge of all Windows development, told CNET News.com that some features of Longhorn were being cut from the first releases of the software in order to accelerate development. "
You can also read http://news.com.com/Microsoft+Longho...85.html?tag=nl
In that article, MS again states that features were dropped.
"We certainly know we're going to end up looking at all of the features and deciding some of those features don't have to be in Longhorn--they can wait. I don't think we have it totally worked out," he said. "WinFS is going to be there, Indigo is going to be there, Avalon is going to be there. But there are subtleties within all of that that we can tweak and cut out."
So what about this dare you were talking about?
Oh, another link to a feature that has been dropped: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759...129TX1K0000610
Tell me a single feature that's been announced.Originally Posted by Beaker
I haven't heard of one.
Everything being discussed so far is targetted right where it should be: developers.
What have consumers heard?
From a user's perspective, all that's known is that Vista will be a new OS.
If you aren't a developer, forget everything you were ever told about Longhorn, because it wasn't aimed at you! Of course it looks like Vista will be nothing, nothing's been announced for users yet.
That doesnt' mean it won't be great, it just means that:
1. You can't say things have been dropped from the user experience
2. You can't say you're disappointed, because no expectations have been set
3. You can't say that there's nothing new
4. I can't say there is anything new
5. I can't point out cool things it'll do
Nobody knows anything about Vista from a user perspective, so how about you sit back and watch this little baby get birthed? Anyone remember the OS X developer previews? Yeah, that looked like a crap version of Gentoo Linux.
Developer previews, and hardware previews, are so that developers and hardware manufacturers can be ready. It's all about the API's. Some of those have changed, or have been slated to be ported to XP (which is a Good Thing(tm)). That has nothing to do with the user experience though.
If you're concerned about the user experience, say so. But don't say silly little things like "WinFS was dropped and Avalon will happen on XP, so why should I upgrade". Those are all API sets. Nothing to do with user experience.
hahahaOriginally Posted by Jeremy W.
so Avalon that was supposed to improve the readabilty of the screen in HD LCD and Plama screens isn't part of the user experience?
And a faster file system enabling the user to gain more performance out of their disks isn't a user orientated feature?
tell me, do you also consider Keyboard support a Feature?
I am a developer, and see above. To think that Microsoft is going to do something creative and new is absured especially to think it's going to involve a unique user experience.If you aren't a developer, forget everything you were ever told about Longhorn, because it wasn't aimed at you!
1. Monad was never announced for Longhorn.Originally Posted by Andrewaclt
2. It'll be in Exchange later this year.
Either way, Monad isn't really a user tool, it's an admin tool. It'll be in Exchange. SQL Server. BizTalk. HIS. LCS. MMS. WU. This year. I was never really sure why folk "expected" it to be in Vista. It was never announced for Vista.
You'll still get Avalon. You'll still get a faster file system.Originally Posted by Beaker
WinFS was never about faster indexing. It was about a metabase of data that other apps could extend. Your indexing will still be faster. Your search will still be instantaneous. You'll still have on-the-fly search folders (a la Outlook 2003, but for the whole OS).
None of that depends on WinFS.
You'll also still have a huge HD interface. Avalon being ported to XP doesn't change that.
None of those, though, are user features to me, because users don't interact with them. Their API layers, which enable core functionality and empower the user experience team to function.
The difference is simple, what are the WinFS and Avalon teams focussing on? They're focussing on a common, fully featured set of API's.
The teams that do user-facing things then work with those API's. As I understand it, the API's for Avalon, WinFS and Indigo are effectively "feature complete". The beta that began coming out this week and will go out to 100,000 testers on Aug 3 will have those complete API's. If there are no bugs, that'll mean the UI and Experience and Shell teams can finish up their work based on those final API's.
This is all "cart before the horse" type stuff. The look and feel, experience, customizability, performance, etc, couldn't be rolled out until after the developer bits and API's were complete.
They will be by the end of October (hopefully), allowing for a full "user experience" beta later.
Does that mean there will be new fantastic user experience bits? No. It just means that nothing has yet been cut from that (officially).
I never said it was. But you've yet to show me an actual feature from the user experience which will be cut. Hell, you haven't shown me a developer feature that's been cut yet either (though I already said one, I figure most folk missed it).Originally Posted by Andrewaclt
Avalon and WinFS where both stated at various points in time by MS press releases as being included in Longhorn. Due basically to the fact they are delayed they where cut from the system. Longhorn is how much overdue now? I know that development work over-runs, it's inevitable. But while MS take 5 or 6 years to develop an OS that doesn't actually do anything noticably better than the previous version the Open Source developers are quickly catching up (yes they are, if they wheren't then MS wouldn't bother marketing as much as they do).Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
Yes we'll still get them, but we will also get them for XP. Removing the necessity for upgrading (until they discontinue support on XP) for all but a small number of folks. If i buy a lappy with Vista on it i'll use it, but I and most other people will not bother buying it because it's new. By the time Vista arrives it will more than likely be even more overdue than they state, and if they rush it no doubt bugged to the eyeballs with niggling little things and security holes (*NIX isn't perfect either, everyone admits that).
To be honest from the point of view of someone who builds a fair few systems and actually does the setups i've found that 2k _almost_ got it right. Not much unecessary cruft, familiar enough to most previous Windows versions that anyone could use it, and not system hoggingly "pretty" by default. From now on i'll assemble my systems and get customers to pay for XP, but i'll ship it with "Classic" view and tweaked to the eyeballs (Paying me less profit for per system). Mainly because the differences in XP and Vista are likely to be purely cosmetic until Avalon and WinFS appear.
The amount of marketing $ being spent on Vista will have nothing to do with Open Source. Windows 95 marketing budget: 300M$. Windows 98: 400M$. XP: 500M$.
Also, since nobody knows ANYTHING about the features of Vista, how can you say "differences in XP and Vista are likely to be purely cosmetic until Avalon and WinFS appear"
As far as WinFS I'm not sure how many times I need to say this: the change won't impact users.
Avalon? Read here. Avalon's still alive and well, and will be delivered (as will Aero) with Vista, when it ships.
You don't need to believe everything Mary-Jo writes, y'know.
What won't be delivered with the initial Avalon suite will be a set of interactivity toolkits to help developers. Users will still get the experience as designed, since WinFX is still completely present.
XAML'll still be there. Presentation layers'll still be there. Graphics and multimedia and interpretive layers'll still be there. Watch the videos. See the code. Look at all the PDC sessions.
Hell, even take a look at the WinFX SDK.
It's not gone. It's not cut. It's not delayed. It's just restructured. And everything users'll care about is still in there.
Once again, dare is still on. Name a Vista feature that's been cut.
Just for kicks and giggles, here are some of the graphical differences between XP and Vista, that are being discussed internally and then translated to various forums. No official releases on this yet, so put this under "rumours". Some are things I've personally heard from teams, others are totally so far out there that they likely won't be true in any way, shape or form.
Some of the WGF stuff is new to me, and so I'm putting it under "unconfirmed rumours", but some of it's pretty solid (unloading what you don't need while playing games, for instance).
Take all of this with a grain of salt, but realize that this is at least some kind of perspective on what at least one group of gamers and MS-folk feel they want in the OS, in terms of graphics.
Most of the above is pretty close to what I've been hearing coming out officially, unofficially, on lists, in blogs and on Channel 9.Vista uses the Windows Graphics Foundation, or WGF. WGF 1.0 will use DirectX 9.0c as its primary interface, but Vista will also have the Next-Gen 3D API build in. You can see it as DirectX 10, but it's officially called WGF 2.0.
One of the important features of WGF is the Longhorn Display Driver Model (LDDM). It is possible with LDDM to install a new graphics driver without even rebooting your system. LDDM will ship in two stages. The first, called basic, supports current generation graphics hardware: shader model 2.0 and 3.0 capable hardware. The second stage of LDDM, advanced, will support hardware features that ship at the same time or after Vista is released, but will work with the new features in WGF 2.0. Because of the competitive way of graphics hardware development, we'll probably see advanced LDDM capable hardware before Vista is released. The current Windows XP driver model is still supported, but will be frozen going forward.
Advantages of Vista above XP:
- run more than 15 graphical applications at the same time instead of 2
- complete control manager to optimize system resources
- every window in Vista will be a 3D surface (when opening My Computer you're actually watching an interactive 3D texture)
- applications can be bigger than graphic card memory currently allows (advanced VRAM simulation)
- split your monitor into four pieces and play games at the same time while listening to your favourite music with Winamp, watching a movie with Windows Media Player and posting spam on the Guru3D forums
- Vista uses DirectX (WGF) to draw the Windows Desktop
- you are able to rotate your windows in a 3D way, so you can push it to the background, put it upside down or squeeze it in a corner. This way you'll be able to have more windows on your screen at the same time
- Vista supports up to 160 open windows at the same time
- there are four different graphic modes for Vista (2GB/256MB/128MB/64MB textures)
- new motherboard BIOS'es will be integrated into Vista itself
- some of the BIOS settings can be changed within Windows and you won't even have to reboot to apply the new settings
- with XP, users got a lot of freedom to configure and tweak their system but Microsoft says that with Vista the 'more advanced' users will get the freedom to customize and tweak even more features of Windows that weren't possible in XP
Now some very important info about gaming on Vista:
- there will be NO graphical difference between an ATI or nVidia card anymore, the only difference will be overall performance
- WGF 2.0 allows GPU processing without CPU intervention
- The Xbox 360 uses some of the technology Vista will use to handle games on the PC
If you want to play a game, Vista will disable every component of your computer that isn't needed by the graphical interface and unloads the Windows Desktop (it's like running a game in MSDOS).
While it's true that the graphics technology for Vista is very advanced, it's also true that Microsoft is trying to have a wide array of hardware specifications. By the time Vista actually ships, almost every new PC should be able to support the user interface and Windows Graphics Foundation.
That doesn't mean users will need GeForce 6800 Ultras or comparable cards. As we've seen, the user interface will support four different qualities, the most basic should even run on most of today's hardware. If you want the full Vista experience, you'll want a heavy system and graphics hardware, and lots of memory.
Windows Vista will most probably be released in the second half of 2006.
As far as differences, here are the supposed updated. Some of this is "marketing speak", but most of these are the "intended end-game scenarios" (no pun intended). I don't neessarily see the value in all of this, but ah well.
Also, much of this is new to me, so I can't in any way confirm it. Some of it is downright weird, but some of it makes perfect sense based on current internal posturing. I'm posting the below anyways. If people want clarification on what I feel is solid, I'm happy to give that. Though, obviously, take that with a pound of salt too
Update 1: VISTA CHANGES PC INTO GAME-CONSOLE
Dean Lester, the General Manager of Windows Graphics and Gaming says Microsoft is making the gaming-functionality of Windows Vista the same as a modern game-console, but wants to keep the advantages of PC gaming like high-end graphics and sound hardware, online communities, community support and downloadable content.
Update 2: COMPUTERS WITH DIFFERENT LEVELS
Microsoft is working together with nVidia, ATI, AMD and Intel to develop pre-configured computers with different levels, low, mid and high range hardware-configurations for different sales prices. PC's with a certain configuration of CPU, videocard and memory will be split in different levels. Because of this, choosing a PC for gaming gets a lot easier, because fast computers will get a higher level. The system requirements on game-packages will have a level requirement, so you can see if the level of your computer is high enough to handle a game.
Update 3: EASY TO USE
With Vista Microsoft wants to eliminate the long installation procedures that PC games have. Installing and playing a game should be as easy as with a console. They too are developing a special driver manager, so you won't have any problems with different drivers. This means no problems with flickering textures, stuttering and crashing anymore, because the drivers will be fully controled by the graphics interface and because of this system nVidia and ATI can develop and test their drivers for problems within a few seconds. Updating drivers and BIOS'es will get a lot easier because Windows Update will get a special feature that automatically checks if your hardware is up to date and automatically updates your drivers, BIOS'es, the Vista graphics interface and even updates for the most important feature of Vista, WGF 2.0.
Update 4: FUTURE GRAPHICS
Microsoft is going to implement Pixel and Vertex Shader 4.0 support into the new graphics interface, so in the near future after Vista is released there doesn't have to be another newer version of WGF to be released. Epic has announced that their Unreal 3 Engine will support future pixel and vertex shader versions that are going to be implemented when the Unreal 3 Engine is near completion.
Update 5: SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS AND RESOURCE USAGE
Vista uses a lot of memory, but it uses it for a good reason. Vista doesn't even have loading times when you're using Explorer, Internet Explorer or any other primary Windows component. The big amount of memory thats being used isn't just for the textures but it contains every important file thats needed by Explorer when running a primary Windows application. When you start a game, the Vista graphics interface immediately unloads everything out of the memory that isn't needed by your 'game hardware' (video, sound and physics card) such as the 3D Windows Desktop. Users are able to change the way Vista reacts when they boot up a game or 3D application. WGF is fully customizable to your own needs. For example, you can keep the Windows Desktop loaded and play a game at the same time, or if you have a fast system run both in split screen. To do all this fast loading and unloading you need to have fast memory and ofcourse a fast harddisk. But here's the problem. The harddisks we use today are far too slow (12000 RPM is not fast enough) and will be a huge bottleneck when loading huge amounts of files into the memory. That's why Microsoft and Samsung are working on a new Hybrid hard drive that will use 1 GB flash memory as a buffer. They want to take part of the load of the spinning drive and to lower loading times and boot times drastically. Vista will fully support this technology. Microsoft and Samsung are still working on a way to unload files very fast from the harddisks flash memory. Next year Microsoft will start a huge marketing campaign for new hardware they are developing and they will give an update on the development of the Hybrid harddisk. When using a Hybrid harddisk in a mid-range computer of today (2 GHz, 1 GB RAM) you will have boot-times of about 5-10 seconds. Imagine how fast a high-end PC in late 2006 will be.
Update 6: ICONS
In Vista icons will be completely changed. Documents don't have a icon anymore that shows the file-type, but it shows the first page of the document. Folder-icons will show you the inside files by using 3D technology. You'll see the files coming forward in a slideshow while you're watching the folder.
Update 7: STABILITY
Vista will be the most stable OS ever. Microsoft admitted that it had problems with stability with Windows ME and XP (without SP), but they really are making work of making Vista unbelievably stable. Microsoft even has made three special teams that researched Vista and future technologies for two years. After Vista is released, Microsoft doesn't even have to release any updates to make Vista stable, because Vista manages itself automatically and disables processes that can make your computer unstable and are unneeded by the applications you're running.
Update 8: SECURITY
Vista will have a better internet security. Instead of using very advanced ways to protect your computer, they're using somewhat primitive ways to keep users away from your harddisk. For example, Vista is able to completely halt every type of data transfer from your computer to any hardware component and is able to pause your internet connection when there is happening something suspicious. Microsoft is developing software together with Symantec (Norton Antivirus) to detect virusses the moment they reach your harddisk. Vista will be able to quarantine certain parts of the harddisk and make sure a virus gets automatically removed (using Norton Antivirus).
Update 9: HARDWARE FOR VISTA
Some hardware will be specially made for Vista. Before Vista will be released in 2006, Microsoft will start the biggest marketing campaign ever, not just for the most advanced piece of software ever developed by more than 80.000 people (not only Microsoft), but also for the hardware that will be developed especially for Vista. As you've read before, there will be special harddrives, but there will also be special videocards that will have to work constantly at 100%, extra fast memory and new dual-core processors to support the new multi-application technology Vista uses. For Vista Hyperthreading is a old technology. Vista will take full advantage of it, but compared to the new technologies of the processors that are being developed it doesn't really help at all. There also will be newer soundcards to support the high sound quality that is possible when Vista is released. All hardware manufacturers are doing their best to get their new hardware finished before Vista is released. Microsoft promised that the prices won't go trough the roof.
Update 10: MULTIPLE INTERNET CONNECTIONS
Vista supports a new technology that has been developed. With this technology you're able to use multiple internet connections (max 4) at the same time. For example: You have an DSL internet connection with a download speed of 100Kb/sec and a cable inter net connection of 80 Kb/sec. And you're downloading a file from a different user who has an upload speed of 140 Kb/sec. When you're using those two internet connections, the DSL connection starts to download 100KB/sec and the left 40 Kb/sec gets downloaded by the cable connection. This means you'll always be downloading at top speed, as long as you can afford multiple internet connections. Because of this you're able to play up to four different games at the same time online with just one internet connection.
Update 11: COPY PROTECTION
Microsoft has teamed up with Disney and a lot of music labels to improve copy protection for movies, music and software using digital rights management functionality in Vista. Microsoft said they will use heavy copy protection schemes, so users won't be able to copy digital media. This may scare of a lot of consumers, but Microsoft doesn't worry about that, because eventually everyone will go Vista (their words). This means no Warez anymore.
Update 12: VISTA AND THE XBOX 360
Microsoft has announced that the Xbox 360 controller will work on Windows Vista too. They did this because they want the game mode of Vista to be an upgraded version of the Xbox 360. The Xbox 360 and Vista both will use a new technology that makes games run at the fastest speed possible. Because Microsoft is the 'leader' of the Xbox and Windows, they made it possible to connect your Xbox to your PC and download special content and updates for your games, without having to subscribe anything. The Xbox 360 uses the new multiple internet connections technology seen in Update 10. Downloading files can take some time, but thats not a problem anymore, because now you can play a game offline or online and download certain files at the same time! This is one of the advantages over the PlayStation 3 and the Nintendo Revolution. The XBox 360 has a lot more advantages, but the reason for all of that is the company thats behind the Xbox, Microsoft, the most powerful software company in the world. They made sure Sony and Nintendo couldn't make use of these new Windows technologies. So if you want compatibility between your console and your PC you'll have to buy a Xbox 360. It looks like Microsoft again has found a way to eliminate the competition.
Update 13: GAME ENGINE, API AND VIDEOCARD ARCHITECTURE
As you've read before, Vista will use its own API to handle 2D and 3D graphics. Microsoft knows that this will cause a lot of compatibility problems and thats why they are talking to the videocard manufacturers. The new videocards ofcourse need to support the new graphics system and the manufacturers have to adjust their videocards' architecture so it will take full advantage of Vista. Because of this the support for OpenGL won't be as good anymore, because all the new videocards will be specialized in WGF graphics. Because of the new WGF technology, game engines need to be adapted to Vista as well. This means, that engines that will be used in the near future, like the Doom 3, Source and Unreal 3 Engine, will have to be fully compatible with WGF and the new videocard architecture.
Update 14: VISTA AND G70 VIDEOCARDS
The 7800 GTX and all other upcoming G70 videocards support the Vista 3D Desktop Engine. The G70 videocards also are fully optimized for WGF 1.0 and LDDM. Because the G70 cards support LDDM, VISTA will take control of the videocard's BIOS and driver. This means that Vista will automatically be able to change settings for optimal gaming performance. The LDDM feature is a part of WinSat (Update 15). The G70 videocards don't support WGF 2.0, but this technology won't be used in the near future. With a G70 videocard you don't have to worry about using Vista, because you'll only get advantages.
Update 15: OPTIMIZATIONS
As you've read before, Vista will have a game mode which will bring gaming on the PC to new levels. Gaming will be the same as on a gameconsole. No bugs, crashes, slow loading times or stutters anymore. This is possible because Vista will use a lot of new technologies that have been under development for years. WinSat (Windows System Assessment Tool) is one of those technologies. WinSat is a sort of benchmarking tool which analyzes your system's hardware and generates a score for every critical component in your computer. It gives your processor, memory, videocard and harddisk a score and with those scores Vista will find a balance between the different components and will make sure that no piece of hardware is a bottleneck. This means that if your videocard is too fast for the CPU, the left over power of the videocard (which is being bottlenecked) will be used for background services. You can choose between two optimization modes; general office applications and games. Vista has another useful feature which hasn't been named yet. When you boot up your computer this feature will detect if there is a hardware change. If there is a change it will rebuild the hardware configuration. With this feature it will be possible to replace a motherboard without any driver issues.
apple has been picking up marketshare more rapidly now than ever before. mostly because of the success of the iPod.Originally Posted by Archbob
New Media Entrepreneur
I like Vista. Am I the only one? I think it sounds better than longhorn. Vista makes me think of fields with mountains in teh distance, clear and uncluttered. I give it a +
Actually, I can't afford anything at the moment. But if I buy a Mac, I don't want to get the cheapest model, because I read that it has some sort of built in limitation. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it sounded to me like it wasn't really for professional web designers, etc.Originally Posted by vgarcia