SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

View Poll Results: Who's opinion is worth more?

Voters
19. You may not vote on this poll
  • Developer's

    3 15.79%
  • Client's

    16 84.21%
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 53
  1. #26
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Before These Crowded Streets
    Posts
    9,446
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    forget the poll...lol...I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the developer(designer) and the client. The designer's opinion is worth a whole lot more than the clients....

    Sketch
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  2. #27
    SitePoint Evangelist
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Houston, Texas, USA
    Posts
    559
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Dead horse alert.

    I think we've pummelled this poor dead horse enough.

  3. #28
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    9,121
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    walks slowly away

    Re-reading both of these threads I actually think we are just saying the same thing from different angles... I'm not entirely sure how to reconcile the 2 sides (nor do I want to try).

    Way to go on a solid debate/argument though *L*
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  4. #29
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Before These Crowded Streets
    Posts
    9,446
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    LOL...cool...Coco, you have that PHP file for me yet?
    Sketch
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  5. #30
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    9,121
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Waiting for it to be sent to me
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  6. #31
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Before These Crowded Streets
    Posts
    9,446
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    oh...whoops....I thought you had it...well send it to my home livingpages@livingpages.net

    Sketch
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  7. #32
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    On the road...
    Posts
    9
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What about Marketing's opinion?

    Don't they know everything?
    "Love, Truth and Honor"

  8. #33
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    9,121
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    marketing dept == roadies
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  9. #34
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Before These Crowded Streets
    Posts
    9,446
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    roadies! lol...nice cross-threading!

    Sketch
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  10. #35
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA, USA
    Posts
    3,910
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: No disrepect.

    Originally posted by rgremill
    Thinking your opinion is ALWAYS worth more than the opinion of the client is disrespectful.
    As a general rule, when discussing web development, the developer knows more. That is WHY they are the developer. This is common sense.

    Originally posted by aspen
    A man walks into a MacDonalds and orders a hamburger with only cheese and ketchup on it.

    The cashier takes his order and starts working on his drink. A minute later she comes back.

    "I'm sorry sir, our cook just informed me that he thinks you will enjoy your sandwich more with pickles on it. Since he is the one who makes the sandwiches he gets final say in this matter. So your burger will have pickles on it."

    The man goes to Burger King, where you can have it your way.
    The analogy does not apply here. If you wanted to use an analogy that would apply, you would have the chasier say "Our cook thinks you would enjoy meat on your sandwhich more...are you sure you don't want any meat? We highly advise it."


    As I've said before, the client does not know of the web, becuase if they did, they would not hire the web developer in the first place. Unless they've got something solid, like a survey or study, to back them up, then it is the developer's unequivocal duty to disagree, if they truly believe that.

    If you hire a doctor, and you tell them you think you have cancer, do you want them to just agree with you? No, you want them to tell you the truth, regardless of what you want or what you think it is. You don't want them to FORCE certain procedures on you, but you DO want them to at least tell you they think you're wrong, because they're the professionals.

  11. #36
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Before These Crowded Streets
    Posts
    9,446
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    EXCELLENT doctor analogy, TWT.

    Couldn't have said it better.

    Sketch
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  12. #37
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Thailand
    Posts
    4,810
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Some crucial variables missing from this thread.....

    Opinion about what????

    A developers opinion is not more valid by default when the issue in question is, for example, who makes the best baked beans (in which case the answer would of course be Heinz).

    A developers opinion is also unlikely to be more valid than a clients when it comes to the most efficient operation of their business - and that includes its web based customer facing interaction. Many developers have a set way of doing things - and will often tout something as ""the best" way when what they actually mean is "the most convenient way for them".

    If you listen to any developer above a client when it concerns the way things operate - then you deserve to lose the business.

    You are also not considering the clients knowledge base - a very arrogant stance.

    I am the "client" of over 5 large dev companies in the UK. While I am not an expert in all areas, I consider my knowledge to be fairly well rounded, and would simply close relations with any firm that talked down or had preconceptions about my knowledge.

    Just something to bear in mind.

    H
    ~The Artist Latterly Known as Crazy Hamster~
    922ee590a26bd62eb9b33cf2877a00df
    Currently delving into Django, GIT & CentOS

  13. #38
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    9,121
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    sorry @ H, that wasn't my intention either... damn I'm good at pissing folk off

    Again, please let me assure you that the first 2 weeks of most projects are spent with the client and we do whatever we can in that time to try and open our minds to what the client wants.

    But, when it comes down to "so, what are our options given the info" time all opinions come in and at that point I need to weigh the opinions and options. Developers don't automatically win. Clients don't automatically win.

    For instance, I had a client who was an amazing developer and so knew what he wanted. My developer disagreed. I figured we could pull off what the client wanted and we did...

    This whole discussion is based on me disagreeing with someone's statement (which I read wrong) so I apologize...
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  14. #39
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Thailand
    Posts
    4,810
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    lol - was not directed at you particularly coco!


    Just a general gripe about certain developers. I have gone through dozens of companies before arriving at the five I currently work with, and most have not met approval because they failed to listen (because they were entirely up their own behinds), not because they didn't posess the requisite skills.

    I don't think any of what you are saying is entirely wrong - I guess I was more ranting about the validity of the question asked than the answers given.

    H
    ~The Artist Latterly Known as Crazy Hamster~
    922ee590a26bd62eb9b33cf2877a00df
    Currently delving into Django, GIT & CentOS

  15. #40
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    9,121
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    oooh, um, I have stuff to say but I just lost my middle finger... damn... where did it go?!

    Just kidding

    Keep rocking and being passionate about whatever you do, I'm going cliff diving tonight!!!
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  16. #41
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA, USA
    Posts
    3,910
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    H is right, to a degree: the question is VAUGE. Although rgremill disagrees, or simply will not admit to it, this poll is inherently flawed and very much tainted in it's results.

    Hey, if the client has some good stuff to back them up, and insists on things, so be it, but you DO want the developer to question you on matters of web development if they have doubts. It's as bad as lying in some cases to refrain from it, because most clients (if not all) are counting on you to do your job, and help them develop the best website that they can possibly created, and to simply sit back and say "yeah, pink and green will work okay", is violating the trust of the person who may have no idea pink and green look pretty ridiculous for an insurance companie's website in most cases.

  17. #42
    SitePoint Evangelist
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Houston, Texas, USA
    Posts
    559
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Two sides of this issue.

    From what I see, there are two major approaches to client relations.

    Approach 1 is defined as:
    The Developer is God, The Developer knows all. The client has nothing to add. The client is lucky we're working on his project. The client should sign a waiver if his insignificant little mind comes up with an idea we don't agree with.

    Approach 2 is defined as:
    The Client is Supreme. The client has been in business for 20 years and has much to add. The developer makes use of the client's knowledge to make the project a success.

    The question is: which is your approach?

    I do agree that the question may be flawed, but I'm not a statistics major, I was lucky to get out of that class with a B.

  18. #43
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    9,121
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    both approaches are unbalanced, wrong, and not what anyone in this thread is saying.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  19. #44
    SitePoint Evangelist
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Houston, Texas, USA
    Posts
    559
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Yes

    They are extreme approaches.

    A few in here seem to lean towards approach number one.

  20. #45
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA, USA
    Posts
    3,910
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Two sides of this issue.

    Originally posted by rgremill
    From what I see, there are two major approaches to client relations.
    I don't agree at all. Why is it one extreme or the other? There are many subtle levels in between (to borrow a line from Bill Murray). Here's how I see it, broken up:

    1 - You know better. This doesn't mean you do not yield to the client, but at the very least, such an occurence is rare, and you're convinced you know better in virtually every area related to the site.

    2 - You think you know better in most areas, and you're probably right. If your client proposes something ridiculous, you're going to speak up, but if they insist on pink and green, despite your warnings, you'll probably give them what they want (save for rare instances where you don't want your name on it, or something of the sort).

    3 - The client knows better, or at least should be treated as they do. Any objections brought up are vauge and in the end, the client gets the site according to their specifications, no matter how unprofessional they may be.

    I fall into the second category, but if you ask me, category 1 isn't such a bad place to be, considering in some cases (not all), it is the way to go. However, I have difficulty in visualizing a situation where #3 is optimal.

  21. #46
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Before These Crowded Streets
    Posts
    9,446
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    okay...once again, back to the original question. Who's opinion is WORTH more? I have answered that. I beleive the developer's opinion is worth more. However, the question was not how do you hammerout differences? Who's will comes out on top? Are you able to compromise? Will you give the client what he asks for? Those were NOT the question. The question was who's opinion is worth more. The developer. Period. I as a developer work with my client to get the site he wants, but my opinion is the "professional opinion"...it is worth more. That doesn't make the client's opinion worthless, just not as much as the developer.

    Sketch
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  22. #47
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    9,121
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I would be pretty much bang on #2.

    I'd think there would be a 4th category not quite as extreme as #3 as well...

    (move 3 to 4)

    3 - Respect the client, give him what he wants and only object if it is truly bad for his business or the site.

    This approach seems to be (no offence intended) what rge leans towards. Kind of a "get the money and run, so long as it doesn't reflect wrong on me or the client" kinda thing.

    However, I could be wrong...

    I think all 4 approaches have their place. I've found myself progressing through these stages. I started @ 4, moved to 3 and am now at 2. Though I don't see myself moving to 1, it wouldn't be a bad place to be if it was a larger company with no time ot mess around.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  23. #48
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    9,121
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    well said sketch (as usual)
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  24. #49
    SitePoint Evangelist
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Houston, Texas, USA
    Posts
    559
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Interesting

    I like the way the spectrum has developed.

    I think as you move towards the number one position, overconfidence becomes arrogance and you start treating your clients like scum.
    Last edited by rgremill; Jul 13, 2001 at 07:20.

  25. #50
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Before These Crowded Streets
    Posts
    9,446
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    thanks....communication is a strong point of mine...
    Sketch
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor




Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •