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  1. #76
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by {RainmakeR}
    Just FYI, it appears that phpBB 2.0.16 is also afflicted by this change in the latest PHP release (for example, you receive a blank page upon submitting a post, and the error log reports a fatal error of "Only variable references should be returned by reference").
    phpBB is afflicted by it's own terrible source code.

  2. #77
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Redpath
    Why not just rename it to "Application Design" full stop? I never worked out why PHP had a dedicated advanced forum on here, and no other language did - its not like application design is exclusive to PHP, and most discussions on here often branch off into discussions on other languages and platforms, such as Java and .NET, and recently, Ruby/Rails.
    I think that is mostly because people in here are PHP programmers

  3. #78
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Hi.

    This forum just kinda' "works". I don't know why - it's certainly unique. It is probably rather fragile as well. Let's leave it as it is.

    yours, Marcus
    Marcus Baker
    Testing: SimpleTest, Cgreen, Fakemail
    Other: Phemto dependency injector
    Books: PHP in Action, 97 things

  4. #79
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Hi...

    Quote Originally Posted by timvw
    I can say from experience that php4.4 kills simpletest and adodb..
    The current version of SimpleTest 1.0.1alpha in CVS is now clean of notices for PHP4.4. This added 50 odd lines of unnecessary code. I agree now I've seen the implications, version 4.4 is horribly broken. If it wasn't for the need to keep compatibility with everyone else, I would never have let it near my machine.

    What's really delightful about this is that the Zend accelerator is riddled with bugs in the opposite direction. You are forced to put "&" all over the place or you get objects inexplicably set to null. This means an awful lot of completely useless variables. If you are passing a reference through a sequence of calls you have to add a dummy variable in every single method in the chain. It cannot even work out it had a reference to begin with .

    I sure hope parrot takes off...

    yours, Marcus
    Marcus Baker
    Testing: SimpleTest, Cgreen, Fakemail
    Other: Phemto dependency injector
    Books: PHP in Action, 97 things

  5. #80
    SitePoint Zealot
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    The current version of SimpleTest 1.0.1alpha in CVS is now clean of notices for PHP4.4. This added 50 odd lines of unnecessary code. I agree now I've seen the implications, version 4.4 is horribly broken. If it wasn't for the need to keep compatibility with everyone else, I would never have let it near my machine.
    You are incredible for fixing this so quickly - I had decided I would just fix it myself, so I got started at the 5000 some exceptions I got on the ST test suite. 100 or so later, I just downgraded

  6. #81
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastcraft
    You are forced to put "&" all over the place or you get objects inexplicably set to null. This means an awful lot of completely useless variables. If you are passing a reference through a sequence of calls you have to add a dummy variable in every single method in the chain. It cannot even work out it had a reference to begin with .
    I can't quite picture this. Can you give an example?

    As an aside: Last time I looked Marc Liyanage had not done a MacOSX binary of 4.4. Could this be why?
    Zealotry is contingent upon 100 posts and addiction 200?

  7. #82
    SitePoint Addict pachanga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastcraft
    Hi...
    This added 50 odd lines of unnecessary code. I agree now I've seen the implications, version 4.4 is horribly broken.
    BTW, it seems that PHP core developers agree(according to php internals mailing list) that reference stuff in PHP 4.4 and 5.1b3 is broken and they are currently fixing this issue.

    Maybe we shouldn't be in rush trying to make old good code compatible with these versions of PHP?

  8. #83
    SitePoint Enthusiast duff_beer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastcraft
    If you are passing a reference through a sequence of calls you have to add a dummy variable in every single method in the chain. It cannot even work out it had a reference to begin with :rolleyes:.
    I submitted a bug report for this issue, it was dismissed twice as "bogus", then someone else moaned in the mailing list and they eventually reconsidered it.

    http://bugs.php.net/?id=33558

  9. #84
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Hi...

    Quote Originally Posted by auricle
    I can't quite picture this. Can you give an example?
    Something like this...
    PHP Code:
    function factory() {
        return new 
    Thing();
    }

    $my_thing = &factory(); 
    That wasn't it exactly and that code will probably work (the original examples were more complicated), but we have had to change a lot of code to...
    PHP Code:
    function &factory() {
        return new 
    Thing();

    ...if we use 4.4 to...
    PHP Code:
    function &factory() {
        
    $object = &new Thing();
        return 
    $object;

    We won't be upgrading to 4.4 until it's compatible with our current code. I don't fancy fixing a 40K code base after spending an hour plus on SimpleTest . We will probably just make the big leap to PHP5 when we have time to do it.

    yours, Marcus
    Marcus Baker
    Testing: SimpleTest, Cgreen, Fakemail
    Other: Phemto dependency injector
    Books: PHP in Action, 97 things

  10. #85
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    We will probably just make the big leap to PHP5 when we have time to do it.
    Good choice... But I'm surprised you've not already made the move. Shocked actually?

  11. #86
    SitePoint Evangelist jplush76's Avatar
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    Moving to PHP5 isn't fun and games I can tell you that much. I've been working on the php5 upgrade project here for 2+ weeks and I'm still finding things all over. Moving from nusoap to the SOAP EXT has been the biggest issue, code that expects arrays now gets objects, all the calls are different, soap ext is much less forgiving than nusoap in wsdl usage. No more domxml support which was used heavily here, etc.. its a real pain the a_s_s
    My-Bic - Easiest AJAX/PHP Framework Around
    Now Debug PHP scripts with Firebug!

  12. #87
    Resident Java Hater
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    As for PHP5, I've been using it since the betas. It's still got a far few bugs in it. I dunno what's better in terms of engine bugginess. Certainly, I've been reporting a few engine level bugs still recently. Basically, all I'm saying don't expect the grass to be green on the other side of the PHP version, because you'll probably still run into engine querks like you do in PHP4.

    I'm totally put off by Zend's attitude to the whole thing. It seems the Zend optimiser and PHP 4.4 seem to be a classic example of Zend ruining PHP. duff_beer just highlights the typical Zend approach of denying engine level bugs, and blaming the user instead.

    The sooner Zend are removed the better. The unfortunate thing is Parrot seems to be fantasy. It's not developing very quickly, if at all and seems to be mainly a distant hope for the future for many languages.

  13. #88
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    Parrot?

  14. #89
    SitePoint Addict timvw's Avatar
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    http://www.parrotcode.org

    (Although parrot will support other languages, i'm not sure if i'm going to like Perl6)

  15. #90
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    The Parrot source code was first released to the world on Monday 10th of September 2001.
    ... July 2005?? Wouldn't hold my breath on anything coming to fruitition any time this side of the decade. I can just about remember Harry mentioning something about this ages (and in the development world, it has been an age) ago in an early blog or thread.

    Forgot all about it, I did

  16. #91
    Resident Java Hater
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    Even now, half way through the decade Parrot is still a a fair way to go as a VM, let alone any non Perl languages being implemented in it. Shame really as Parrot at least has readable source. The Zend engine source is total mess compared to Parrot's code. The sooner Zend is ditched the better

  17. #92
    Resident Java Hater
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    Quote Originally Posted by jplush76
    Moving to PHP5 isn't fun and games I can tell you that much. I've been working on the php5 upgrade project here for 2+ weeks and I'm still finding things all over. Moving from nusoap to the SOAP EXT has been the biggest issue, code that expects arrays now gets objects, all the calls are different, soap ext is much less forgiving than nusoap in wsdl usage. No more domxml support which was used heavily here, etc.. its a real pain the a_s_s
    DOM XML was removed for a good reason, that is to be replaced with proper standards based DOM API, which is a fair bit better (though it's got some funny querks it's self). Still DOM is a nasty API as it's very clumsy.

    The therory was that moving to PHP5 was easy according to Zend, as PHP5 was going to be 100% backward compatible with the exception of code like $var = $this, where coders relied on the flawed copy based behavior. The reallity is far from it now a few revisions of PHP5 are out. Due to the buggy reference implementation (which they still didn't get right in PHP5 despite a total rewrite), it's thrown BC totally out

  18. #93
    SitePoint Enthusiast alpeb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pachanga
    BTW, it seems that PHP core developers agree(according to php internals mailing list) that reference stuff in PHP 4.4 and 5.1b3 is broken and they are currently fixing this issue.
    Could you please point out the exact thread where this is stated?

    Thanks

  19. #94
    SitePoint Addict pachanga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpeb
    Could you please point out the exact thread where this is stated?
    I think here:http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=33558 ...and it seems to be fixed in CVS already(18 Jul 2005)

    Oh, i almost forget, here's the thread

  20. #95
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    Asking "Is PHP Enterprise ready" is a stupid question because there are plenty of big enterprise applications written in PHP, and many huge corporations using it on a daily basis. A language is enterprise ready when it's being used to write enterprise code.

  21. #96
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    then what is your definition of enterprise code?

  22. #97
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Etnu
    Asking "Is PHP Enterprise ready" is a stupid question because there are plenty of big enterprise applications written in PHP, and many huge corporations using it on a daily basis. A language is enterprise ready when it's being used to write enterprise code.
    can you give examples ?
    PS: don't make stupid claims without knowing the definition of "enterprise-ready"

  23. #98
    SitePoint Zealot Website Rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastcraft
    Hi...

    Something like this...
    PHP Code:
    function factory() {
        return new 
    Thing();
    }

    $my_thing = &factory(); 
    That wasn't it exactly and that code will probably work (the original examples were more complicated), but we have had to change a lot of code to...
    PHP Code:
    function &factory() {
        return new 
    Thing();

    ...if we use 4.4 to...
    PHP Code:
    function &factory() {
        
    $object = &new Thing();
        return 
    $object;

    We won't be upgrading to 4.4 until it's compatible with our current code. I don't fancy fixing a 40K code base after spending an hour plus on SimpleTest . We will probably just make the big leap to PHP5 when we have time to do it.

    yours, Marcus
    From the example given, it looks like PHP 4.4 (and 5.x?) are making people declare their variables. If that is true it is similar to use using 'strict' mode in Perl, and good Perl coders know that coding in 'strict' may take more time but you pretty much get bulletproof code; from a no-bugs and best security point-of-view.

  24. #99
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
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    According to this MySQL presentation they describe their enterprise edition as being paid to not fix bugs so that the product stays stable (or atleast unchanged) for long periods of time.

    Although there may be benifits from a business perspective, from a developer's point of view, I don't see stagnation as a good thing.

    Douglas
    Last edited by DougBTX; Jul 30, 2005 at 05:58.
    Hello World

  25. #100
    simple tester McGruff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    PS: don't make stupid claims without knowing the definition of "enterprise-ready"
    I did think that was a good definition; I didn't think you should call people stupid even if you do disagree.


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