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  1. #26
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Hi...

    Quote Originally Posted by timvw
    I can say from experience that php4.4 kills simpletest and adodb..
    Pants. Ok, I'll check it out.

    yours, Marcus
    Marcus Baker
    Testing: SimpleTest, Cgreen, Fakemail
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    Books: PHP in Action, 97 things

  2. #27
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy kyberfabrikken's Avatar
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    (this break was intentional and fixed a lot of references
    related bugs)
    Intentional in what way ? Like in forcing people to switch to php5 ? I mean ... why on earth would anyone break API on a discontinued version ?!?

  3. #28
    SitePoint Addict timvw's Avatar
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    I was a bit too fast... I've changed my configuration to ignore warnings and all test seem to pass again )

  4. #29
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Hi...

    Quote Originally Posted by timvw
    I was a bit too fast... I've changed my configuration to ignore warnings and all test seem to pass again )
    ...but I want warnings enabled. More work to do . Is it me, or is Zend a couple of cowboy C coders who got lucky? Grrr...

    yours, Marcus
    Marcus Baker
    Testing: SimpleTest, Cgreen, Fakemail
    Other: Phemto dependency injector
    Books: PHP in Action, 97 things

  5. #30
    eschew sesquipedalians silver trophy sweatje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timvw
    I can say from experience that php4.4 kills simpletest and adodb..
    That sounds bad. Where are you encountering the problems?

    I downloaded the win32 binary and checked the unit test suite and it appears okay:

    Code:
    sweatje@DPW-60AF0F24 ~/simpletest/test
    $ php unit_tests.php
    Unit tests
    OK
    Test cases run: 86/86, Passes: 1817, Failures: 0, Exceptions: 0
    
    sweatje@DPW-60AF0F24 ~/simpletest/test
    $ php -v
    PHP 4.4.0 (cli) (built: Jul 11 2005 16:13:16)
    Copyright (c) 1997-2004 The PHP Group
    Zend Engine v1.3.0, Copyright (c) 1998-2004 Zend Technologies
    Edit:

    never mind, caught up on the thread after I posted
    Jason Sweat ZCE - jsweat_php@yahoo.com
    Book: PHP Patterns
    Good Stuff: SimpleTest PHPUnit FireFox ADOdb YUI
    Detestable (adjective): software that isn't testable.

  6. #31
    SitePoint Addict timvw's Avatar
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    . (noticed that webhost forgot to update php cli... )

  7. #32
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiJaySung
    LOL. I don't know why people are anti Ruby. PHP isn't Ruby and can't do everything Ruby does, but Ruby does 99.99% of what PHP does, so it's fair enough to do something like Doug does. Anyway, there are a lot of people who seem to be anti Ruby, yet haven't used it for anything proper. You can't really against something unless you've had a fair degree of experience imo.
    People, it's all about the money. Java sells because it is enterprise-ready. PHP sells because it's good for fast development and most importantlly: outsourcing.

    Ruby does not sell (at least for a couple of years). When I first told by boss about Ruby he said "Ruby-what ?" and he is right. No proof that it's ready for the masses, no good documentation, no tools, no professional support, buggy and incomplete VM. Get over it.

    BTW: If you want to measure an industry, a better way of doing it, instead of googleing for pages containg "PHP" or "Ruby" go to any large jobs site like http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ and search in there. Also it's also appropiate to search http://www.amazon.com for books on the subject and compare the number of titles. This should give you a better and healthier view of the whole picture.

    Since this is a PHP forum I thought a little Ruby bashing is appropiate. :P

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastcraft
    Perhaps the question is not "Is PHP enterprise ready?", but "Is Zend enterprise ready?".
    Ouch!!!

    Is that your own quote? Those are some pretty profound and hard-hitting words that probably have a lot of sober truth in them.

    I can see that quote being (mis)appropriated by the PHP FUD "community" - although, increasingly, it's looking a lot less FUDdy.

  9. #34
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    I think many PHP supporters got irritated by the Zend's quest to improve PHP's enterprise image instead of actually come with sollutions

  10. #35
    Resident Java Hater
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastcraft
    Hi.

    The PHP community is never going to advance if it keeps losing experienced developers at the top end. It used to be that PHPers would migrate away to Java, then it was Python and now it's Ruby. The developers are not just adding a new language, but switching away from PHP. All because of Zend's cavalier attitude to language level bugs.

    Perhaps the question is not "Is PHP enterprise ready?", but "Is Zend enterprise ready?".

    yours, Marcus
    * Nods in agreement *

    <rant>
    More and more half-decent coders (I would say experienced like you here, but I'm hardly what many would classify as expereinced) are moving away from PHP by the day. Like you said, the real reason for me is that Zend seem to have the wrong attitude. They seem to be following after Java. The one selling point for PHP was that PHP <> Java. Now that is going, people are moving on. At the same time, I also think there is a market incentive here. .NET has a lot more jobs and money seems to flow more freely in the capitalist environment that Microsoft have developed. At the same time, Python and Ruby seem to be developing appeal because of their simple nature. What sells Ruby to me is not just the cleanness of the language, and Rails, but it's small, simple and and very flexible (you can write shell scripts almost like you would would in BASH where as PHP shell scripts are littered in noise methods like shell / passthru, like wise Ruby has more mature GUI bindings that PHP GTK). The speed of development / elegantness of Ruby is a huge selling point for those who do find the time to look at Ruby. I think Ruby would gain a huge foothold if universities etc start using it in place of Java. This is something that is perfectly possible too.

    Zend's bad attitude to all of this just proves to existing PHP users that there is little reason for one to stay with PHP if they are prepared to make the jump. to somewhere with more of future. Backed by the fact that it will be a long time before PHP6 comes out is making it blindly obvious to those who can switch that "the grass is greener on the other side".

    The other thing that get me with Zend, is they seem to be pouring so many resources into marketing it's engine as Enterprise ready. To me this is just a classic case of running before you can walk. They need to adresss serious design flaws in the engine first, and their IDE is rough on the edges. They had a perfect chance to do this, when they developed PHP5. They've missed that chance, and as a result PHP5 seems to be following in the mistakes of PHP4 where serious language level changes seem to still be taking place throughout 5.1.x and 5.2.x
    </rant>

  11. #36
    Resident Java Hater
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyberfabrikken
    Intentional in what way ? Like in forcing people to switch to php5 ? I mean ... why on earth would anyone break API on a discontinued version ?!?
    No, they've just forced people not to use temporaries, and instead dereference into variables

  12. #37
    Resident Java Hater
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    I think many PHP supporters got irritated by the Zend's quest to improve PHP's enterprise image instead of actually come with sollutions
    No, it's the case that Zend are trying to run before they can walk by saying they have an enterprise product when their Engine has serious design flaws.

  13. #38
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiJaySung
    *Like you said, the real reason for me is that Zend seem to have the wrong attitude. They seem to be following after Java. The one selling point for PHP was that PHP <> Java. Now that is going, people are moving on. At the same time, I also think there is a market incentive here. .NET has a lot more jobs and money seems to flow more freely in the capitalist environment that Microsoft have developed. At the same time, Python and Ruby seem to be developing appeal because of their simple nature. What sells Ruby to me is not just the cleanness of the language, and Rails, but it's small, simple and and very flexible (you can write shell scripts almost like you would would in BASH where as PHP shell scripts are littered in noise methods like shell / passthru, like wise Ruby has more mature GUI bindings that PHP GTK).
    Wow, PHP is heavilly under attack. I can't believe it . However, I see some points that aren't true.

    1) PHP is far from being Java
    2) Java does not have the problem mentioned here and should not be mentioned
    3) The most wanted programmers are for Java and not .NET
    4) Python is around from 1991 and is far from new. It has allways developed appeal, and somehow it never succeded
    5) Ruby is just a toy (for at least 2 years to come)
    6) Perl is just plain ugly, and Perl 6 for now is just vaporware
    7) Who the fu*k builds desktop applications with Ruby or PHP-GTK ??? That's just . Python and Perl are far more well suited for such task.

  14. #39
    Resident Java Hater
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    People, it's all about the money. Java sells because it is enterprise-ready. PHP sells because it's good for fast development and most importantlly: outsourcing.

    Ruby does not sell (at least for a couple of years). When I first told by boss about Ruby he said "Ruby-what ?" and he is right. No proof that it's ready for the masses, no good documentation, no tools, no professional support, buggy and incomplete VM. Get over it.

    BTW: If you want to measure an industry, a better way of doing it, instead of googleing for pages containg "PHP" or "Ruby" go to any large jobs site like http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ and search in there. Also it's also appropiate to search http://www.amazon.com for books on the subject and compare the number of titles. This should give you a better and healthier view of the whole picture.

    Since this is a PHP forum I thought a little Ruby bashing is appropiate. :P

    Yes, it is partly down to money. For those who are motiviated by this, many are moving to .NET. MS have been very clever at trying to hit the middle of the road market here.

    As for your quote on Ruby. Well we still find that it's immature atm, and there are some issues that we are uncertain of, but the Ruby Community are making a big effort to make up good Documentation (their docs are pretty good imo), just look at the focus on tools like rdoc / rake. GEM's make it easy to deploy stuff like PEAR does, and while it lacks professional / commercial support, it does have a good *helpful* IRC community.

    As for Buggy incomplete VM? I totally disagree. It ain't half as flawed as PHP's.

    Anyway, that's enough Anti PHP blabber for a day. I'll leave it at that before I annoy anymore people :P

  15. #40
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiJaySung
    As for Buggy incomplete VM? I totally disagree. It ain't half as flawed as PHP's
    Yes, but the thing is PHP and Python/Java/.NET do not have the same target. Ruby on the other hand... not the same story. And last time I checked the Ruby VM didn't had support for threads. If this is the case, than that's not good, is it ?

    I like Ruby, but it still has a long way to go.

    BTW: I'm also sad to see the Zend homepage showing ads with "See why Oracle choose PHP" while PHP has serious issues that need to be fixed.

  16. #41
    Resident Java Hater
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    Yes, but the thing is PHP and Python/Java/.NET do not have the same target. Ruby on the other hand... not the same story. And last time I checked the Ruby VM didn't had support for threads. If this is the case, than that's not good, is it ?

    I like Ruby, but it still has a long way to go.

    BTW: I'm also sad to see the Zend homepage showing ads with "See why Oracle choose PHP" while PHP has serious issues that need to be fixed.
    PHP doesn't have support for threads, so it doesn't make it any better. Ruby has it's own threading system which is OS independant. The only flaw here is that calls to methods that depend on something external to the language (i.e. OS stuff) will pause all the Ruby threads.

  17. #42
    Resident Java Hater
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastcraft
    Hi...
    ...but I want warnings enabled. More work to do . Is it me, or is Zend a couple of cowboy C coders who got lucky? Grrr...

    yours, Marcus
    LOL. That's crossed my mind a few times before

    TBH It's probably more a case that the engine lacked design from day one. Certainly the Ruby C API seems so much easier and cleaner. Maybe thi is also due to the lack of documentation of Zend's half (Odd really, as documentation is normally one of the big plus points of PHP).

    Anyway I'll shut up about ruby now before it's declared as a swear word on this forum.

  18. #43
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    I wish we all had the same skills in C instead of PHP, I'm sure we could fork PHP and improve all of these things

    Is it me, or is Zend a couple of cowboy C coders who got lucky? Grrr...
    Very sharp!

  19. #44
    eschew sesquipedalians silver trophy sweatje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Proton
    I wish we all had the same skills in C instead of PHP, I'm sure we could fork PHP and improve all of these things
    My sarcasm detector is malfunctioning this morning, so I am not sure how serious you were with that quip. In some respects, I don't think it matters how well you knew C and the Zend engine, because your patches still need to be accepted into the PHP tree to be able to see any widespread use. Not sure how many people would adopt "son of PHP" if you did fork it. This may be why some people prefer to contribute at the script level. You can always create an open source project which people are free to use or not use as desired, but once you start writing targeting specific non-bundled or custom extensions (or the hypothetical forked version) your audiance of people who you can help and who can contribute back become much smaller (perhaps one!).
    Jason Sweat ZCE - jsweat_php@yahoo.com
    Book: PHP Patterns
    Good Stuff: SimpleTest PHPUnit FireFox ADOdb YUI
    Detestable (adjective): software that isn't testable.

  20. #45
    SitePoint Zealot
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    Installing PHP 4.4 isn't as easy as thought

    The code is failing in PHP 4.4, it's returning:
    Notice: Only variable references should be returned by reference in D:\webroot_apache\flaw0001.php on line 3

    PHP Code:
    <?php
    error_reporting
    (E_ALL);
    function &
    a() { return array(); }
    function 
    b(&$data) { /* ... */ }
    b(a()); 
    ?>

  21. #46
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    My sarcasm detector is malfunctioning this morning, so I am not sure how serious you were with that quip.
    Not really that serious because of what you explained: it would be very hard for a PHP fork to be accepted by a lot of people.

  22. #47
    Ribbit... Eric.Coleman's Avatar
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    Off Topic:


    Jason, update your link to ADOdb, that link has been wrong for ages ;P

    adodb: http://adodb.sf.net/
    phpEverywhere: http://phplens.com/phpeverywhere/
    Eric Coleman
    We're consentratin' on fallin' apart
    We were contenders, now throwin' the fight
    I just wanna believe, I just wanna believe in us

  23. #48
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiJaySung
    PHP doesn't have support for threads, so it doesn't make it any better
    Dude, I just said it, PHP is not targeting the same target as Python/Java/.NET. PHP is a shared-nothing procedural easy-to-deploy language that is dependent on Apache. Wherever Apache is, so is PHP. PHP, for its small to medium who-gives-a-damn-if-not-scalable web scripts doesn't need threads. But Ruby is targeting the world of application servers and heavyweight web scripts. And it shows imaturity when a language feature (threads) is not supported in the VM.

    God, please don't let MiiJaySung to talk about Ruby anymore, I feel like I can't take it

    Quote Originally Posted by lastcraft
    ...but I want warnings enabled. More work to do . Is it me, or is Zend a couple of cowboy C coders who got lucky? Grrr...
    Maybe we should file a complaint to them so that it only triggers notices instead of warnings. That was the right thing to do.

  24. #49
    eschew sesquipedalians silver trophy sweatje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric.Coleman
    Off Topic:


    Jason, update your link to ADOdb, that link has been wrong for ages ;P

    adodb: http://adodb.sf.net/
    phpEverywhere: http://phplens.com/phpeverywhere/
    Just shows how long I have been using it

    Commited
    Jason Sweat ZCE - jsweat_php@yahoo.com
    Book: PHP Patterns
    Good Stuff: SimpleTest PHPUnit FireFox ADOdb YUI
    Detestable (adjective): software that isn't testable.

  25. #50
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    But Ruby is targeting the world of application servers and heavyweight web scripts. And it shows imaturity when a language feature (threads) is not supported in the VM.
    It's boring to scale with Ruby on Rails?

    Douglas
    Hello World


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