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  1. #76
    SitePoint Addict manipura's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Polymath
    James 1
    5: If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
    Well I know for a fact that you CAN walk on water. Now why doesn't god teach us this? Why doesn't god teach us all these wonderful things that he is able to do. I know we can predict the future, I know we can do many wonderful things that the bible doesn't even mention.

    Another thing.. People pray to god for years, do they ever get a reply?


    Originally posted by Polymath
    James 1
    6: But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.
    Belief is the most powerful thing in the world. Because whatever you believe is true. At least in your own mind. But whatever is going on in your own mind is how it all is right? Doesn't matter if someone says things are different. The world is only the way you think it to be. Thats another factor on how you create your own reality. Plus in one of these posts I heard someone say your thoughts influence the universe... HA! I have known that all my life. It was told to me by a group of people a few years back and ever since I have been seeing the evidence. Why? Either I was more observant or My thought created my life to be that way. Wait, thats what its about right? Ha ha ha.... *Point Proven*

    Now I think its in the bible, jesus tried to teach someone to walk on water. He made it very far. But then one cell in his body had disbelieved that it couldn't walk on water. So they fell in.


    Originally posted by Polymath

    7: That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord
    Not think? I don't get it! Altough I do think that if you don't think about your actions and just do them, everything turns out as expected. Your thoughts change the universe, and when you set a goal, the universe will change and move in a direction that will lead you to that goal. It will create situations for you that will give you the knowledge you need to get to where you want to go in life.
    Last edited by manipura; Jul 11, 2001 at 19:04.

  2. #77
    SitePoint Addict manipura's Avatar
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    Science never doubts its beliefs....

    Physics and math are logic. There is no way you can go against saying that 2+2=4

    400 years ago if anyone said that the earth was round would be hated and sometimes killed.

    It will never accept doubt until you can prove it wrong. How many times have they discovered more and more about the atom? In the past 100 years the concept of the atom has been changed many many times. I say at least 6 or 7. And until someone proved the world was round. After that you would be call dumb to say it was flat.

    Now to say that killing is wrong. Or to say it is right. Who doubts that? More then you would know. I think of murder as ending the life of a being with a soul. Humans have a soul, they have feelings, they can see, think, and act. Animals. They have a sould, they can see, think and act. Right?

    To doubt religion is much more easily taken then to doubt science. Why? Because people lost their faith becuase it wasn't explaining enough for them. Long time ago, religion ruled it all. To doubt religion was a bad thing. Now no one cares. Now to doubt science is a bad thing. People wanted to know more about how the world works. Not how religion works. Well.. I can't think of what religion explains anyway. What does religion teach you? I know it gives you something to believe in, That is very powerful. But what are you believing in? It tells you to point to a book to solve your problems. I say point to yourself. See what caused the problem. See what come from your actions to make it a problem, and see what you can do to aviod that problem next time. WOW!! Evolution!

    Evolution is like a spiral though, you tackle one problem, its over with right? You learned how to aviod it right? Not always. The same problem might arise again, but this time you have a better understanding of it. The spiral, its like walking up a mountain in a sprial, when you end up at the same point, you see it in a totally different way!

  3. #78
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Well I know for a fact that you CAN walk on water. Now why doesn't god teach us this? Why doesn't god teach us all these wonderful things that he is able to do. I know we can predict the future, I know we can do many wonderful things that the bible doesn't even mention.
    I'm just venting in general here, but it's these kinds of things that contribute to the complete and utter myth that science is in direct contradiction with religion. God did not hand us a 500-million page book to guide us through absolutely every detail of the world. I truly believe God wants us to conduct experiments and learn about the world He has placed us in. As such, it doesn't have to be in The Bible to be true, necessarily.


    Another thing.. People pray to god for years, do they ever get a reply?
    Depends on who you ask, but I personally believe I've gotten replies. Though, again, I have a feeling you already know the answer you're going to get to your question.


    Belief is the most powerful thing in the world. Because whatever you believe is true. At least in your own mind. But whatever is going on in your own mind is how it all is right? Doesn't matter if someone says things are different. The world is only the way you think it to be. Thats another factor on how you create your own reality.
    "At least in your own mind" -- very important line there. I don't believe people create their own reality. Really sounds like wishful thinking to me. I believe there is a reality out there, and some people are correct, while others are incorrect. I also think there's a decent chance that no one on this earth right now has it 100% down.


    Plus in one of these posts I heard someone say your thoughts influence the universe... HA! I have known that all my life. It was told to me by a group of people a few years back and ever since I have been seeing the evidence. Why? Either I was more observant or My thought created my life to be that way. Wait, thats what its about right? Ha ha ha...
    Share the evidence with us! Whether I agree with it or not, I like hearing it, and it tends to be fairly interesting. Oh, and no, I don't agree our thoughts influence the universe. I think our actions influence the universe.


    Now I think its in the bible, jesus tried to teach someone to walk on water. He made it very far. But then one cell in his body had disbelieved that it couldn't walk on water. So they fell in.
    Yup. That was the summit of faith. I would have surely failed, and I am ashamed as a result. Hopefully I will learn to trust God more in time.


    Not think? I don't get it! Altough I do think that if you don't think about your actions and just do them, everything turns out as expected. Your thoughts change the universe, and when you set a goal, the universe will change and move in a direction that will lead you to that goal. It will create situations for you that will give you the knowledge you need to get to where you want to go in life.
    I don't believe that. Many upstanding people with goals and dreams die unhappy in some ways, or with unfinished business.



    Physics and math are logic. There is no way you can go against saying that 2+2=4
    Mathematics is man-made, isn't it? I agree that 2 + 2 = 4, but only because I believe that we live in a universe with absolute truths. Numbers are not fact -- numbers are representations of thoughts.


    It will never accept doubt until you can prove it wrong. How many times have they discovered more and more about the atom? In the past 100 years the concept of the atom has been changed many many times. I say at least 6 or 7. And until someone proved the world was round. After that you would be call dumb to say it was flat.
    That's one thing I don't like. Science needs to accept doubt always, BECAUSE of the new things that are constantly discovered. As I've said: we're here for 100 years (and that's being generous), and in the broad scheme of things, our life is quite short. As a result, there will be people and studies that say certain things during our life that will be considered utterly ridiculous after we die. Because of this, I have to believe that taking science as Gospel (pardon the pun) is a pretty foolish thing to do. Accept it as likely, or adopt it as a belief, but realize that you ARE putting your faith into something you do not truly know. That's a simple fact.


    Now to say that killing is wrong. Or to say it is right. Who doubts that? More then you would know. I think of murder as ending the life of a being with a soul. Humans have a soul, they have feelings, they can see, think, and act. Animals. They have a sould, they can see, think and act. Right?
    I do not agree that anything that can see, think, and act, to have a soul necessarily. "Think" is far too vauge. Animals are born with instincts, and, it seems, some emotions as well. However, they are not born with vision, and imagination. Dogs are concerned with eating, sleeping, mating, and raising their young and/or pleasing their owners.

    Dogs are not concerned with building farms or communicating across long distances quickly so as to better their standard of living, as well as that of their descendents.


    What does religion teach you? I know it gives you something to believe in, That is very powerful. But what are you believing in? It tells you to point to a book to solve your problems. I say point to yourself. See what caused the problem. See what come from your actions to make it a problem, and see what you can do to aviod that problem next time. WOW!! Evolution!

    Evolution is like a spiral though, you tackle one problem, its over with right? You learned how to aviod it right? Not always. The same problem might arise again, but this time you have a better understanding of it. The spiral, its like walking up a mountain in a sprial, when you end up at the same point, you see it in a totally different way!
    I have to say, you confuse me. I understand what you're saying, but it amazes me that you can say something I totally disagree with one sentence, and something I completely concur with in the next.

    About pointing to yourself: we're caught in a loop as a result. The Bible says that we are inherently flawed. That's what caused the problem, basically. We are born into sin, and we WILL sin. How often we sin depends on many things both out of, and in, our control. And yes, evolution does indeed exist in some such forms.

  4. #79
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by manipura
    Physics and math are logic. There is no way you can go against saying that 2+2=4
    Well, when you (humans) make something up, of course it will act the way it's designed.

    Look, mathematics doesn't "exist" naturally, it was made up by humans and just happens to be very usefull in many contexts.

    Originally posted by TWTCommish

    "At least in your own mind" -- very important line there. I don't believe people create their own reality. Really sounds like wishful thinking to me. I believe there is a reality out there, and some people are correct, while others are incorrect. I also think there's a decent chance that no one on this earth right now has it 100% down.
    I believe people create their own reality. Your beliefs determine what you notice in the world, and what you notice determines your reality. As Timothy Leary said "Your brain is a reality generating device". I mean, without a brain you'd have no reality, at least in my reality.

    Oh, and no, I don't agree our thoughts influence the universe. I think our actions influence the universe.
    Our thoughts influence our actions, do they not? Anyway, when I first heard the idea that "our thoughts influence the universe" I was a bit skeptical. Since then I've realized that had more to do with my lack of understanding what that meant and the reasoning behind it than anything else.

  5. #80
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    I agree 100% with what manipura had to say. Especially the thought about the preacher's using their interpretation of what the Bible had to say. I've heard preachers at this church say this is bad and to never do it, but then I come to the church over here of the exact same religion and denomination and BOOM, all of a sudden it is ok to do these things. What's with that. You think your in the same religion with someone halfway around the world but how can u be sure. For all you know the preacher over there is teaching drugs and sex are the thing to do every day. And then if u look into the Bible it says that God created evil, right? Why would somebody go and do that. I know it is to have your own choices but what is the point. If we didn't know about evil, how could we pick it? Don't get me wrong though. I like choices. Just not when they are about the way the rest of my life is going to be. I like choices like vanilla or chocolate, jeans or khakis. Confrontations are good because they help strengthen you for the next time u have one. But as the wise manipura says, never blame others for what we brought on ourself(or was it someone else).

  6. #81
    SitePoint Enthusiast Zonify's Avatar
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    My Feelings...

    To date, I haven't made my religous preference. So far I feel we are re encarnated but I feel that there is a God. I feel that there is an end to the world and this God will take his people to wherever. I don't really know what to think at this moment. I mean I have seen people being healed from many diseases and they feel it was God, but then I see these things where people can see their past lives, so these two contradict each other. Jeez, I hd so much to say, let me try to remember what I was going to post.

    Also I believe our lives are planned out and we do not lead our own paths. Each of us have a destiny. I mean how else could psychics see your future? And you Manipura, read people's future with tarot cards? I mean our lives are planned out and we are destined to eb rich, poor, powerful, strong, weak, smart, or dumb.

    Does anyone have any comments on re encarnation? Like when we come back do we keep the same thoughts and personality? Or do we change entirely? I think we stay about the same in our ideas... Also Do you feel that when re encaranted we coem back as animals? Or always humans? And if we were rich do we become rich in the next lfie or is it a whole new lfie and our destiny is planned for that new life? Many questions I have, but none will be answered till I die, and I see for those few moments God, and he tells me everything, then he sends me back to "any planet" and makes me a being again. I believe after one life God tells you everything then sends you back as a new lfie form. I also believe our first few years of life the first year or two (when we remember nothing) is when God is erasing our last lives memory.

    I know I may sound weird or like I am on drugs, but this makes me comfortable, this is how I explain life. This gives me a purpose and a meaning.

    - Aakshay
    Aakshay Kripalani
    Marketing Director
    Zonify Advertising Network - http://www.zonify.com

  7. #82
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Plebius
    Our thoughts influence our actions, do they not? Anyway, when I first heard the idea that "our thoughts influence the universe" I was a bit skeptical. Since then I've realized that had more to do with my lack of understanding what that meant and the reasoning behind it than anything else.
    Yes, surely they do, but do you say that you're able to drive from place to place because of your foot, for pushing the pedal, or because of your brain, for telling your foot to push the pedal? Naw, you attribute it to the car. Your thoughts CAN lead to actions, but don't always have to.

  8. #83
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    They can also lead to inaction.

    I'll take a number of approaches to this idea, take whichever one feels right for you.

    ...

    Over spring break I had a strange experience. I was on the interstate driving back to school. When I first got onto the highway, I had an "intuition" that I was going to get into an accident.

    60 miles later, traffic on the interstate was stopped, so I stopped my car. The person behind me didn't. Apparently they were "looking at a map".

    ...

    Maybe I should take a different approach to "your thoughts influence the universe". If what psychology tells us that "you get what you reinforce" is correct, then this means that your persistent thoughts become your reality.

    ...

    Last November I was in love with a girl. I had sent the girl an email. It wasn't particularly important. Now, this girl RARELY checks her email. Once every few months at most. I was sitting in class, and I got a "feeling" that she had just gotten my email. The time was 4:36 p.m. Well, I checked my email later after class, and sure enough, I had a reply from her. The time on it? 4:36 p.m.

    I don't know how or why this happens, but I've had enough experiences like that to know something is going on. Whether it has to do with quantum physics or something else, I don't know. But IF it does have to do with quantum physics, that would be an explanation that might help the scientific (and other) skeptics open their minds a bit, eh?

  9. #84
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I know what you mean -- I've had a few odd experiences like that, and I certainly believe something or other is going on. Too many coincidences to explain it all...especially about emails and such -- I've had that happen a few times, and it's pretty weird. If you ask me, there's a decent chance it's just our brain working in ways we're not aware of, detecting the tiniest of patterns without us even realizing it...

    ...I wonder about that sometimes. How much thinking goes on in the background, and does your subconcious control your instincts? Are your instincts really calculated equations your subconcious is performing by picking up details that your concious mind considers irrelevant?

  10. #85
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    That definitely has a lot to do with it.

    The subconscious/unconscious, whatever you choose to call it, definitely picks up patterns that we don't always notice consciously. It also has certain patterns of operation which determine how we behave in the world. Of course, changes in these patterns, change our experience of the world and either limit us or provide us with more choices and flexibility.


    <edit>
    Also, they say the conscious mind can pay attention to 7+/-2 things (chunks of information) at a time, while the unconscious can pay attention to 20,000+ (I've heard different numbers on this one).
    </edit>
    Last edited by Plebius; Jul 11, 2001 at 21:43.

  11. #86
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Yeah, I've read that telephone numbers, for example, are 7 digits long (at least in the US), because the leap from remebering 8, as opposed to 7, is a much greater leap than it would be from 6 to 7. Interesting stuff, though I don't we'll figure anything out for sure within my lifetime.

  12. #87
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    I figure I'll spend a good portion of my life trying to figure it out.

  13. #88
    Fried Gold Polymath's Avatar
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    I believe the mind is 'nothing more' than a complicated risk analysis machine.
    I know for a fact that your thoughts do not influence the universe. This is easily demonstrable, by my old chestnut that there a millions of muslims, millions of Jews, millions of Christians, all believing quite different things very devoutly. Some of these beliefs are in direct conflict, they cannot all be right. This is a statement of fact. Therefore, it is very obvious that no matter how devoutly you believe something, it doesn't make it true, as there are millions of devout believers who must be, quite simply, wrong. If the Christians are right, the rest are plain wrong. If the Muslims are right, the rest are plain wrong. This is absolutely self-evident. It doesn't matter which one is right, what matters is that they cannot all be right. So obviously,the truth, or the way the universe is, or what happens in it, cannot possibly come from what you believe or what you think.
    Don't forget, since we were talking about the sun going round the Earth, that many people were certain that this was the case. Their certainty did not make one iota of difference to the facts.

  14. #89
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Re: My Feelings...

    Originally posted by Zonify
    I mean I have seen people being healed from many diseases and they feel it was God, but then I see these things where people can see their past lives, so these two contradict each other. Jeez, I hd so much to say, let me try to remember what I was going to post.

    Also I believe our lives are planned out and we do not lead our own paths. Each of us have a destiny. I mean how else could psychics see your future? And you Manipura, read people's future with tarot cards?
    Okay - I am gonna push the boat out here but people already think I am a 'weirdo' so - what do I care!?!

    As I understand it, these people who believe they have memories from past lives are afflicted by 'familiar spirits'.
    The same little beggars that sit whispering into the mind of a spiritualist (telling you about your relatives) or a tarot card reader...
    How do they know about Napolean? (or whatever) - because they were there!!!
    They exist in the eternal realm so, I reckon they can access time at anypoint...
    I also think it may be possible to recall things from past relatives lives as these spirits can jump down the generational line;
    [I]Exodus 20:5
    "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

    I mean, I myself once had this totally horrific dream about being brutally murdered on a battlefield - I later learned that my scottish ancestor's faught in the clan wars...
    I dunno - it's pretty freaky when you think about it!

    But anyway, I don't doubt for a minute that the Lord healed me of Asthma when I was 10 - and I experienced his increadable presense at a meeting last night... perfect peace - wonderful!

  15. #90
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    Have you ever been in a relationship where every time you even look at another guy/girl your partner get's really upset. I forgot what that's called. Oh yeah. Jealousy. And I don't know about everyone else, but I don't want somebody that is a jealous person ruling over me because when you get jealous, you do some pretty stupid things.

  16. #91
    Dumb PHP codin' cat
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    But anyway, I don't doubt for a minute that the Lord healed me of Asthma when I was 10 - and I experienced his increadable presense at a meeting last night... perfect peace - wonderful!
    Is this your belief? Or do you have proof? I also had childhood asthma and it disappeared right around the age of 10. Guess what it wasn't God, it was the fact that the growth of my lungs caught up to the growth of my body. You and I are not alone, and I don't have a specific number but lots of kids naturally grow out of asthma. Now if its your belief that god healed you, then great, but I think there may be some other factors as to why you outgrew your asmtha.
    Please don't PM me with questions.
    Use the forums, that is what they are here for.

  17. #92
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Polymath
    I believe the mind is 'nothing more' than a complicated risk analysis machine.
    I know for a fact that your thoughts do not influence the universe.
    The KEY word here is "influence" not "control absolutely". Also, explain how I *knew* when that girl had checked her email?

    Originally posted by Polymath
    This is easily demonstrable, by my old chestnut that there a millions of muslims, millions of Jews, millions of Christians, all believing quite different things very devoutly. Some of these beliefs are in direct conflict, they cannot all be right. This is a statement of fact. Therefore, it is very obvious that no matter how devoutly you believe something, it doesn't make it true, as there are millions of devout believers who must be, quite simply, wrong. If the Christians are right, the rest are plain wrong. If the Muslims are right, the rest are plain wrong. This is absolutely self-evident. It doesn't matter which one is right, what matters is that they cannot all be right. So obviously,the truth, or the way the universe is, or what happens in it, cannot possibly come from what you believe or what you think.
    Well, that's what YOU believe. Does that make it correct? Look, if you can honestly tell me the beliefs of various religions have no effect on the universe, fine. But my question then, is, how do you know about their beliefs? What about the actual physical process that occurs in the brain in order to form a thought? Yes, that's thinking more in terms of classical physics, and I believe that consciousness itself arises from quantum physics, then manifests itself, or not, within the classical model. Look at it this way. If consciousness does arise from quantum physics, then our thoughts influence the quantum universe. When OTHER CONDITIONS are met, the thoughts are able to manifest themselves in the cause&effect classical universe. Obviously since most religious beliefs and thoughts are in contradiction to one another, the way those thoughts manifest in the universe is going to be limited.


    Originally posted by Polymath
    Don't forget, since we were talking about the sun going round the Earth, that many people were certain that this was the case. Their certainty did not make one iota of difference to the facts.
    And the "facts" keep changing. Besides, the idea is that thoughts "influence" the universe, not control it. Furthermore, IF quantum physics is a basis for consciousness, then the thoughts are more likely to influence things with consciousness than the movement of large terrestrial bodies. That has more to do with the extent to which thoughts influence the universe than with whether they do, or not.

  18. #93
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by freddydoesphp

    Is this your belief? Or do you have proof?
    Does it matter?

    Originally posted by freddydoesphp

    I also had childhood asthma and it disappeared right around the age of 10. Guess what it wasn't God, it was the fact that the growth of my lungs caught up to the growth of my body. You and I are not alone, and I don't have a specific number but lots of kids naturally grow out of asthma. Now if its your belief that god healed you, then great, but I think there may be some other factors as to why you outgrew your asmtha.
    Maybe God made the growth of the lungs catch up to the growth of the body.

    So, I guess you don't *really* know, and the important thing is whether WHATEVER you believe is usefull to you in some way, or not.

  19. #94
    Dumb PHP codin' cat
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    Very true Plebius, I was only implying that there may be other reasons why he grew out of his childhood asmtha, and like I said already if he believes that then better to him, but of course there are other possibilities.
    Please don't PM me with questions.
    Use the forums, that is what they are here for.

  20. #95
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    I just thought of this...

    Maybe all religions are correct simultaneously.

    Hmm...

    http://www.sciam.com/explorations/06...lorations.html

    Maybe the earth didn't revolve around the sun until we measured it...

    I still like to think the earth is the center of the universe. A physicist friend of mine told me that the theory of relativity makes it true to say that ANY point is the center of the universe... but I can't really say for sure.

    Oh... and here's a metaphor for the whole thoughts affecting the universe thing.

    When you drop two rocks into a pond, the waves they form will no doubt interfere with each other to some degree. However, if one rock is much larger than the other rock, the larger rock is going to cancel out the wave made by the smaller rock much more easily.

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    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Originally posted by freddydoesphp
    Is this your belief? Or do you have proof? I also had childhood asthma and it disappeared right around the age of 10. Guess what it wasn't God, it was the fact that the growth of my lungs caught up to the growth of my body. You and I are not alone, and I don't have a specific number but lots of kids naturally grow out of asthma. Now if its your belief that god healed you, then great, but I think there may be some other factors as to why you outgrew your asmtha.
    Did yours go as quickly as it came? - i.e. Overnight

    Oh, and did it go with a wail whilst you were being prayed for? (spirit of oppresion - maybe it was 'oppresing' the growth of my lungs - heck I don't care, I threw all my inhalers out and haven' had a wheeze since!)
    I have experienced to much of the Demonic and of God NOT to believe.
    And no it wasn't exorcist style either - Jesus cast Demons out all-over-the-shop in the New Testament...

    Matthew 4:24
    The news about Him spread throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all who were ill, those suffering with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, paralytics; and He healed them.

    Matthew 8:16
    When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill.

    Matthew 8:28
    When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way.

    Matthew 8:31
    The demons began to entreat Him, saying, "If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine."

    Matthew 8:33
    The herdsmen ran away, and went to the city and reported everything, including what had happened to the demoniacs.

    Matthew 9:32
    As they were going out, a mute, demon-possessed man was brought to Him.

    Matthew 9:33
    After the demon was cast out, the mute man spoke; and the crowds were amazed, and were saying, "Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel."

    Matthew 9:34
    But the Pharisees were saying, "He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons."

    Matthew 10:8
    "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.

    Matthew 11:18
    "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'

    Matthew 12:22
    Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw.

    Matthew 12:24
    But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons."

    Matthew 12:27
    "If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges.

    Matthew 12:28
    "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    Matthew 15:22
    And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."

    Matthew 17:18
    And Jesus rebuked him, and the demon came out of him, and the boy was cured at once.


    ...oh but sorry, I forgot you 'don't believe in the Bible'.

    Last edited by z7; Jul 13, 2001 at 00:29.

  22. #97
    Fried Gold Polymath's Avatar
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    Plebius:
    Who knows what consciousness is, and what it affects? It does seem that the act of observing influences the outcome of a quantum experiment. But this may well be a phenomenon of a different sort. If scientists are seriously postulating that the universe is really 12 dimensional, then the tiny slice of it that is our view is insufficient to make any decent judgement about this.
    As far as knowing about the girl getting her e-mail, let me tell you a couple of stories:

    1)This morning I saw one of the most unique things, I saw a car with the license plate PTR 426L. Can someone calculate the odds of that happening? They must be astronomical!

    2)The other night I got a weird feeling that something had happened to my sister. Just then the phone rang....it was for my girlfriend, from her parents, nothing to do with my sister.



    The point here is that calculating the odds after something has happened means nothing. Rather like the TV magicians who claim to stop watches. If they have an audience of millions, then the law of averages says some (maybe five or ten) viewers will have a watch stop working, or a clock on the wall. The next day you see some guy in the paper, saying 'Wow, my watch stopped, that guy must be able to do magic.' Now, if everyones' watch stopped he might have a case, but hardly anyone's did, and it is just the law of averages.
    So what you are describing is merely this: such experiences have to happen to someone, this time it was you.
    By the law of averages, Plebius, something like you describe with the e-mail must happen everyday. Some guy thinks about a friend who he hasn't heard of for a year, and the next day he gets a phone call from the friend. But think about the amount of thoughts you have every day. When you think 'Mmm, bacon!", does a bacon sandwich pop through the letterbox?
    Now in order to make your thing with the e-mail have any relevance to my mind (i.e. to validate what you are saying about the influence of thought) you would have to note down every instance of every predictive, previously unsubstantiable thought you have, and compare how much of it corresponded to subsequent events. So if I think there will be a plane crash in Manchester today, I would note it down, and if it doesn't happen, then that's minus one for psychic abilities. If it does, then its plus one.
    The point is that for all the millions of examples like the phone call that wasn't about my sister, or the people whose watches don't stop, there are a bare handful of people who say "But listen to this! What is the likelihood of this happening? Must be ten million to one." They are correct, maybe ten million to one is about right. But it is just law of averages. Examples of weird coincidences not happening don't get noted down, they are unremarkable.
    So for your one example of the e-mail, I could probably come up with ten million like the one about the phone call. And there will always be millions more examples of it not being true.

  23. #98
    Dumb PHP codin' cat
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    So z7 how do you feel about people being cured by medicine? Or is that just a cover for God's magic work?

    I respect you for your belief, but even deeply religious people will tell you not to take the bible verbatum. Its cool with me however you believe, but are you so close-minded that the thought of something else, ie natural occurences or natural growth, might have cured your asmtha? IMHO having faith is one thing, but taking the bible so literally and closing your mind off from further exploration into "other possibilities" is only going to back you into a corer in the future.
    Please don't PM me with questions.
    Use the forums, that is what they are here for.

  24. #99
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    I feel fine about it - if my local Doctor (Dr Lebesque, West End Surgery - big shout-out), hadn't been carrying an IV drip with the right anti-biotics in his car, I would have died of Meningitis at the age of 19.

    I don't think God gave us Medical knowledge for nothing.
    I also think not all sickness/disease/whatever can be healed by the medical proffesion (like Aids, or cancer), and sometimes that is where he steps in.
    Now if you want to get me into a "Why not him/her?" type debate - I have to say, I just don't know...

    I had a PHYSICAL REACTION to prayer - my Asthma was gone, I don't really need to explore the alternatives do I???

  25. #100
    Dumb PHP codin' cat
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    PHYSICAL REACTION to prayer

    I guess that is what makes us different, you believe this, I don't. I mean so are you saying that every kid with asmtha should pray to god because they might have a physical reaction to prayer that will suddenly heal them from asmtha? If that was the case then no kid would ever have asmtha right?

    I also think not all sickness/disease/whatever can be healed by the medical proffesion (like Aids, or cancer), and sometimes that is where he steps in.
    And if God can cure aids, please show me a case where someone has had a physical reaction to prayer which cured them of the AIDS virus. If this was in fact truth, don't you think every aids clinic in the country would be forcing their patients to pray all day long?

    God doesn't cure cancer, healthly living and cemo/radiation cures cancer, sorry dude
    Please don't PM me with questions.
    Use the forums, that is what they are here for.


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