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  1. #26
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    My mistake -- the "Yes but" part threw me off. Please continue with this thread as if I hadn't interefered with it's flow.

  2. #27
    SitePoint Addict manipura's Avatar
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    Now after you read this, I'm sure a lot of you will think I'm crazy, but hey.. This is what I know, take it as you please. But the truth is, I have done lots of research on this. So this is my conclusion.

    Most storied behind religions are real.. I just don't like the beliefs. Now, There was a Jesus Christ, There was a true virgin mary that gave birth.

    Now, how many of you spend time researching lost civilizations? I have a lot! But mostly about Thoth. An egyptian pharoh. The history he wrote about it amazing! I don't know if any of you believe about people that have eternal youth (sometimes eternal life) in this world. But Thoth and many other pharohs and kings are some of them. Now Toth was the one that built the pyramids and introduced writting into the ancient egyptians. Now if you think, where did he get this information? How did he learn to build pyamids like that?

    Thoth came from atlantis. He knew atlantis was going to sink. Him and his parents are able to live as long as they wish. They mastered this method of having a child and giving the child and the parents eternal life. It was tantra that made them get to that point. The way they did it was through certain breathing and postues. There would also be no physical contact what so ever! So a virgin can have a child, then decend to this immortal level. Thoth became a king in atlantis. They created energy fields on the giant island and built citys around them. There were 10 fields (vortex's) and they filled 8 of them. Now, the mayans explained that when atlantis sank all 10 vortex's had a culture on them. The mayans explained that 1 of them were filled with hibrews that came from the future. The other was the race that came from mars. They are human too! Well... To explain that you would have to know about the Merkaba system. Now you could take a course for 10 years and still not understand how it works. But everyone has a merkaba system around them. Its an energy field. But the people on mars (millions of years ago) built pyramids to make a synthetic merkaba system. I'm sure a lot of you have heard there are pyramids on mars. If not, do a search on the net, there's lots there!


    Now these people on mars went into this pyramid and controled this synthetic merkaba system to travel forward in time and to here on earth. Now at the time they came here, the humans on earth had the mind of about a 12 year old girl. They were very emotional and not too logical. The people that came from mars are very logical. Very evil as well. The people at atlantis wanted nothing to do with them. They were alwasy trying to create war and take them over. They tried very hard. They got pretty far, but the numbers were to high. Even though the people from mars had the weapons and technology, they could not take control of all those people.

    Now at some point during this time there was a asteroid coming in the direction of earth. Now the people that lived on atlantis didn't know what to do. Then they came to the conclusion that they would just let it hit earth and do as much damage as it will, leave it be. The people from mars wanted to blast it out of the sky.

    They ended up letting it hit earth and that pissed of the people from mars. So they screwed off and had nothing to do with them anymore. It hit someone in the atlantic ocean that lead tital waves onto atlantis.

    But then when it was time for atlantis to sink all the people that were worthy jumped on a boat and was lead to somewhere else. Thoth, went to egypt. He has been there before, but he was there to teach and live there now.

    More later. This is putting more strain on my head then the religion.. Its hard to handle! But I love it so much!

    The emerald tablets of thoth
    Last edited by manipura; Jul 8, 2001 at 12:23.

  3. #28
    SitePoint Addict manipura's Avatar
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    To start a new subject here I will talk about people.... Heh...

    Now, Whenever I have something bad happen to me, I do into deep thought. Last time I had a girl screw off on me for some other guy(s). So it got me thinking of something I have never really thought of before.. Why people do what they do.

    Emotions have to be the hardest thing to justify in a way that works for everyone. No... Its impossible! Ha! But there are certain guidlines, like when you say something bad about someone, that person won't be to damn pleased. Now why would a person do something like that? To make themself feel powerful? Yes!

    Now as I remeber reading a book called the celestine prophecy about a year back it talked about people stealing each others energy. Now the buddah's talk about it too but this book is more known.

    Now when you put someone down, they give their energy away. They think down on themself. You take it!

    Now there are many ways people take each others energy. Now one way is calling them stupid and worthless.

    The one I see myself doing most offten is playing the "poor me" deal. Telling everyone how much your life sucks, how this is bad and that is bad, even if it isn't as bad as you take it. Stealing peoples energy by making them feel bad for you.

    Another one is playing stupid. Someone asks you a question and you give them a dumb remark or just act like you don't even understand. That in turn make the person pay more attention to you.

    Now when thought I would write about this subject I thought I had a lot to say. Now my mind is blank... Anyone want to help me out here? Let me hear your view!

  4. #29
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Have any of you actually studied religion? I don't mean "studied A religion" but studied the religion as a component of society?

    If you ever take a good mythology class you'll learn about the evolution of religions from the early caveman mother goddess to the monotheistic god of today. Its really very interesting and I would suggest it to anyone.

    Anyways people invented religion to explain the unexplained. Lightning, Fire, Death, Birth, Rain, Wind, Snow, and anything else.

    As science has slowly eroded all of that religion is left with a few main functions, why are we here? how did we get here? (on shakey ground) and where do you we go when we die.

    In my opinion religion is good. It sells peace of mind. People don't like to think they go into the ground when they die, end of story. They like to think they go to heaven, or become reincarnated. Religion also teaches good values, unfortunately I don't think some modern religions teach tolerance and acceptance enough.

    So just remember that the people who go to church do so because they choose to believe in God and Heaven. It isn't hard to sit down with a science book and prove them wrong, but they still believe because it grants them peace of mind that they would otherwise not have.

    Its not a question of who is right or wrong, its a question of preference. Some people prefer to believe in heaven because it makes them feel better, others do not.
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  5. #30
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I have no energy in me today, I don't think, to argue much, but I will simply say these things:

    1 - Logic and science are not contradictory to Christianity.
    2 - I am comforted to know that I worship the same God people have worshipped for thousands of years. It is not a fly-by-night kind of thing.
    3 - While I don't agree that it's some kind of logical, obvious fact that any science book can debunk what I base my life on, I do agree that religion is a positive force in society today.

    That's all.

  6. #31
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    I agree that religion is a positive influence on society, but I also think religion (particularly Christianity) is very detrimental to the progression of science; how many times has discoveries been hampered by the Church because it violated their beliefs (and proved some of them wrong)? Right now, conservative Christians are trying to stop stem cell research, which could revolutionize medicine and save countless lives in the future. I always thought religion promoted life, but then why stop this kind of research? Beats me, I'm an Atheist for a reason.
    So while I have nothing against religion's role in society, and personally have nothing against the individual worshippers, I am passionate that faith should a back seat to science, moral science of course - I am strongly opposed to any amoral science as well.

    As for the concept of good and evil, I believe broken down that evil equates to irrationality, simple as that. And I mean intentional irrationality, not just actions resulting from confusion.
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  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Isn't stem cell research basically making use of "extra" fertilized eggs? I personally have a much larger problem with PETA complaining about using animals for research...I can see the stem cell argument, assuming you and I are talking about the same thing.

  8. #33
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    Well, I could argue, but we have enough of that happening here. I completely respect you, Manipura! I wholeheartedly disagree, but I can sense that you have not made your decisioin based on what someone else has said, but based on your own personal faith..in yourself.

    To everyone else...

    Let me express what I, as a born-again Christian, believe. I hope that anyone who reads will understand that I respect your opinions and beliefs...please respect mine.

    I believe in an all powerfull, all seeing, all knowing, eternal being called God. I believe God to be eternally existent as ONE God existent in three distinct persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    I take my faith from the Bible, which I believe to be the completely inspired, infallible Word of God. I believe in the Bible as both a symbolic and literal book which should be interpreted in both ways. I believe it to be completely prophetic, which entails having specific meaning for the day in which it was written but also direceted, by God, specifically for issues in the writer's future. In other words, today.

    I believe fully in the deity of Jesus...being completely man and completely God, creating a paradox not able to be explained in our finite understanding, but ablke to be reconciled in the infinite understanding of God.

    I believe that man is not inherently good. I.E. no one has to teach a baby to be bad. No one has to teach someone to steal or lie. It's in our nature. All have sinned...(Romans 3:23)

    I believe that sin keeps man from God. God being a completely holy God is unable to be in the presence of sin. As natural born sinners, we have no ability to be in the presence of God (read:heaven).

    I believe in Jesus death and resurrection. As prophecied hundreds of years before, the Messiah has come (Jesus) and he was known as the Messiah because, in fulfilling of prophecy, He died and three days later was resurrected. This act of death and resurrection was the ultimate sacrifice for sin.

    I believe that because mankind sin, God created a means of "redemption" that sinful man could come into standing to be able to have fellowship with God. In the days of Moses, He gave "The Law" which outlined means of sacrifices. Acocording to Hebrews, without the shedding of blood, there could be no covering for sin. When the Messiah came, the sin of the world was covered once and for all by His blood.

    I believ Jesus resurrected and went back to heaven pledging to return one day in the same manner he left. We await His return.

    I believe in salvation for ALL mankind, only through Jesus. God does not desirte that anyone should perish, but earnestly seeks for the heart that is completely His.

    Wide is the road and broad is the way that leads to destruction. Narrow is the way to the Father. Christianity is very dogmatic, as Jesus is.

    I believe there is a covenant laid out for mankind. Presence of sin means hell. Covering of sin is eternal reward. The blood of Jesus seals the covenant and we are free from sin. It's the only way it can happen.

    I believe that God has created us with a free will, but that He knows the end from the beginning. After all, he is timeless and operates outside the bounds of time. A day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day.

    These are some of many things I believe. I'd be happy for debate, but not arguing. I don't condemn you, even if I thik you're wrong.

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  9. #34
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by jkd
    I am passionate that faith should a back seat to science, moral science of course - I am strongly opposed to any amoral science as well.
    Science requires just as much faith as any religion. I've said this before, but, ANY belief about anything (science, philosophy, religion, anything else) always comes down to faith when you get to the bottom of it. When you talk to somebody, and ask the right questions about their beliefs, the end point you always get to is "because I say so". Simple as that.

    Originally posted by jkd
    As for the concept of good and evil, I believe broken down that evil equates to irrationality, simple as that. And I mean intentional irrationality, not just actions resulting from confusion.
    What about physical evil? ie. hurricanes, earthquakes, etc.

    What about irrational feelings like love? Besides, what's 'rational' or 'irrational' depends on who you ask.

  10. #35
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Good point. Let's not forget that without some sort of higher power, not only do right and wrong not truly exist, but the meanings of words are all open to debate as well. Not everyone has to go by the dictionary. Different words mean different things to different people. It sure is a wide open mess at that point.

  11. #36
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by manipura

    Emotions have to be the hardest thing to justify in a way that works for everyone. No... Its impossible! Ha! But there are certain guidlines, like when you say something bad about someone, that person won't be to damn pleased. Now why would a person do something like that? To make themself feel powerful? Yes!
    ...
    Now when you put someone down, they give their energy away. They think down on themself. You take it!
    ...
    Now there are many ways people take each others energy. Now one way is calling them stupid and worthless.
    What about people who aren't affected by things like that? It *is* possible.

    Originally posted by manipura

    The one I see myself doing most offten is playing the "poor me" deal. Telling everyone how much your life sucks, how this is bad and that is bad, even if it isn't as bad as you take it. Stealing peoples energy by making them feel bad for you.
    I like to understand that type of mindset in a different way. I think it has to do with how you motivate yourself. Some people see their goals and work toward them more of the time (toward motivation). Other people look for problems and things to avoid more often (away-from motivation). The second group is more likely to complain in the way you describe. Of course, both motivation strategies have their uses, and everybody uses both, in different contexts. I find it a useful way of understanding though.

    Originally posted by manipura

    Another one is playing stupid. Someone asks you a question and you give them a dumb remark or just act like you don't even understand. That in turn make the person pay more attention to you.
    I'm not sure I understand. Could you elaborate?

    Originally posted by manipura

    Now when thought I would write about this subject I thought I had a lot to say. Now my mind is blank... Anyone want to help me out here? Let me hear your view!
    Your mind may appear blank now, but how surprised and delighted will you be when in one or two minutes some great realizations and understandings will begin to show themselves and just flow easily and naturally?

    I think you might find NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) interesting.

  12. #37
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Re: Me: inspired by "are you christian?"

    Originally posted by manipura
    Can you prove there is a heaven or a hell? Has anyone been there to say heaven is bliss and hell is well...
    Since you are such an open minded chap - why don't you read this book?;

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...043094-5140447

    Glad my post inspired you!
    Love your avatar!

  13. #38
    SitePoint Addict manipura's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Me: inspired by "are you christian?"

    Originally posted by z7

    Since you are such an open minded chap - why don't you read this book?;

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...043094-5140447

    Glad my post inspired you!
    Love your avatar!

    I haven't thought about what happens after death for a very long time. But I think that when you die you end up going into a dream like state where whatever you think comes real. If you think you are going to heaven and going to meet Jesus, then thats what you will experience. I'm sure some people did have a near death experience and experienced a heaven like place or a hell like place, then just led back to earth.

    Some of the storys of that book say that when people had a near death experience it made then much more in touch with their spiritual side. They could talk to the dead, they could predict the furute, they could read tarot cards and do astrology (but who can't?).

    Maybe when you die you just get taken onto a different level. But you have to leave your physical body behind. If you die here you have to start a new form. Although you stay the same person. Just with a new body and a new memory. There are people out there that vividly remember past lives. I knew this little baby that said thank you in Japanese everytime you gave him something. He was 1 year old and coulnd't even speak english. Never seen a person speak another language. The parents never knew why he said that jiberish when you gave him something, but one day they found out it meant "thank you".

    There are people that can remeber things from past lives but no one can ever remember what happened after they died. What happens during that Void? Who knows! It makes my mind wander in many directions when I think about it. Through everything I have seen and heard. I even had a dream that I was up in the clouds, I thought I was in heaven (or what my mind thought where I went when I died, My Mormon Days) and I remember just walking this simple, short blue path on a cloud and then thinking "wow, I just lived another life" Then thinking of all the people I experienced, I helped, I made cry, I made laugh, etc.....

    Come to think of it, I haven't heard many peoples views on what happens when you die. That book looks good, but I'm sure the stories where selected. I have heard this one person say he was just shooting out into space forever when he had his Near Death Experience. Usually when I ask people what do you think happens when die, they just say, I go to heaven, or I come back as another person. But whatever happens between that period is never known. I'm sure when you get there you will remember it, as if you have been there before ,hundreds if not thousands of times before.

    Wow.... all that talk and where have I gotten? No where! LOL

    I'm ready enough books as it is, I will jot that one down and get it one day though...

    Has anyone ever heard of the flower of life?

  14. #39
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Regarding this 'good' and 'evil': Which side is right: Israel (Jewish) or Palestina (Muslim)? They both believe that they're right and who are we to judge them and their actions?

    And TWT, I respect your belief, but I wholeheartedly disagree with it. Then again, I'm a Buddhist, philosopher and scientist, which is a lethal combination to any religion

    I've one last question to ask of you and any other believers of any religion: Faith or Closed-mindedness?
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  15. #40
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Buddhist is the the only one of those three that is a direct contradiction. As for your question: I am not really forced to choose one or the other, but as Martin pointed out (quite eloquently, I might add), when you get down to it, you're living on faith no matter what you believe.

  16. #41
    SitePoint Addict manipura's Avatar
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    ok, this is about the thread fomr Plebius:

    Now it is possible to block this. But then that takes pratice. When someone gets mad around me and tries stealing engery by yelling at me or what not, I just ignore it and it goes away. Its easy to get rid of. Because if he feels he can't take your energy, he won't. People just act certain ways for attention. And if you don't give it to them. They won't want to try to get it from you anymore. I find I can only block this if I try. maybe if I try hard enough for long enough, it would come natural, but that takes pratice.

    Now for the playing stupid part... I can't think of the best way to explain it. Ok, when you want to get information from someone without them knowing why you are getting that certain information or even that you ARE getting that information you want, you play stupid. That doesn't steal much of the other persons energy though.

    I can't remember the best example. But the whole issue of stealing peoples energy isn't good. You shouldn't be working people for their energy, your just making them feel bad. Now when you are in a fight with a person, thats a war for stealing each other engergy, you yell at them, and get some of theirs, They yell back even louder and take yours, etc.

    Now if you want t a good book an this type of thing I suggest you Read This

    I was amazed at this book. I thought it was just the regular fiction story book, then I started reading it and it fit my beliefs very closely! It talks about how everything happens for a reason, how everything has an energy, and much more!

  17. #42
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Elledan

    I've one last question to ask of you and any other believers of any religion: Faith or Closed-mindedness?
    Science is a religion.

    Faith or closed-mindedness?

  18. #43
    Skills to Pay the Bills Sparkie's Avatar
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    Manipura, out of curiousity, have you ever read the book "Chariots of the Gods"...it seems to be right up your alley.

  19. #44
    SitePoint Addict manipura's Avatar
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    No I haven't, I think I have heard about it.. Its just not coming to mind

  20. #45
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Me: inspired by "are you christian?"

    Originally posted by manipura
    I haven't thought about what happens after death for a very long time. But I think that when you die you end up going into a dream like state where whatever you think comes real...(etc)
    Well the first account in that book is a guy who was stung by 4 Box Jelly fish - even 1 or 2 stings from these are fatal. He was not actually a Christian but his mother prayed for him regularly - so God, in his mercy, gave the guy the right thing to say (i.e. The Lords Prayer). Anyway - to cut along story short the guy first went to Hell and then Jesus took him up to heaven (bit of a guided tour y'see!?). He asked him if he wanted to stay or go back, showing him a crowd of thousands which his story would effect, so the guy chose (rather reluctantly), to come back (to thank his moma to!).
    The point is - he was clinically dead for 15 minutes (I believe the brain dies after 5?). Oh, and God healed him of all the effects of the Jelly Fish's venom/poison/whatever.

    There are many other fascinating stories in the book but yeah you are right, they are chosen specifically (although if you have an open mind?!????)...

    ED: Ah, the joys of the internet! - go here for a better version of the story; http://www.finalfrontier.org.uk/mccorm.htm
    Last edited by z7; Jul 10, 2001 at 01:23.

  21. #46
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Sparkie
    Manipura, out of curiousity, have you ever read the book "Chariots of the Gods"...it seems to be right up your alley.
    You are referring to Erich von Daniken's charlatanical clap-trap? Oh, please, sparkie What next - "The Celestine Prophecy"?
    Last edited by freakysid; Jul 10, 2001 at 02:16.

  22. #47
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Plebius


    Science is a religion.

    Faith or closed-mindedness?
    religion - 1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods > a particular system of faith and worship. 2. a pursuit or interest with devotion.

    Source: Oxford Dictionary, Tenth Edition.

    Conclusion: Science is NOT a religion.

    There are two levels of faith: faith in everything you can observe or can conclude using methods like Mathematics and blind faith, which is faith in something which is not the result of observations, reasoning or calculations. Only the latter is an example of closed-mindedness if the person puts blind faith in certain ideas or ideals. This person is then beyond reason and unable to accept any new ideas.
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  23. #48
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    As has been clearly explained, everyone is using blind faith to a degree. You, Elledan, put all your trust in modern day science, it seems. What of the studies and theories that will be proved utterly ridiculous in 100 years, when you are dead? Things change a lot over time, and in 100 years we may be thought of as having done and thought some pretty foolish things.

    Conclusion: Science is NOT a religion.
    Why? Because one of the definitions didn't fit, but the other did? Science can most definintely be a religion. Dictionary.com is even more clear on it:

    4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

  24. #49
    Fried Gold Polymath's Avatar
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    I understand completely what you guys are saying, but I'm certain that science is not a religion, no more than maths is a religion, or physics a religion. No-one prays to science. No-one says 'Oh science, I beg of you, lead me to a better understanding of something or other'. I'm not being sarcastic here, just stating a fact.
    No-one believes Science runs everything, because science is meant to describe the way things are, not dictate the way things are. I'm sure you'll all agree that much of religion is dictatorial, with 'thou shalt not do this or that'.
    In science, some of the descriptions of the universe today are faulty, or non-existent, or not accurate enough. All scientists understand this, and are striving to update these descriptions. You never see a religious person thinking, "which bit of my holy book is faulty, and where can it be improved," or something like that. A religion is effectively set in stone, like the Ten Commandments. I think religion is far too static to be compared to science.

    Now of course, some scientists may slavishly follow the scientific method but that doesn't make it religious, just obsessive.
    Can I prove this? No
    But I do believe belief means nothing. Hmmm.

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    Wha? People do go to science looking for answers and guidance. All the time. They don't actually speak words to it, but they surely think that.

    To me, a religion is anything you put faith into like that...anything that highly influences your beliefs. If you base every single one of your beliefs on what certain scientific studies and methods have to say about it, then science is your religion. People don't have to pray to something for it to be a religion -- the word religion has become associated with Church and God, but that is not the only way it can be used. It is not limited to that.


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