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  1. #26
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Example

    studiococo, I didn't say that you said anything. In the example given the programmer gave cost as a reason for not using a particular bulletin board.

    There are usually technical AND business reasons for choosing technologies. The opinion of the technical staff is important, but the opinion of the client ranks higher.
    Last edited by rgremill; Jul 11, 2001 at 08:19.

  2. #27
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    My post was directed @ both of jackman's.

    I believe if you read it in that context you may not get so worked up.

    The client's opinoin is not worth more than the company providing the service. If a client wanted a slant-roof on a building I was designing, but refused additional supports I would refuse to give it to him unless he signed a disclaimer.

    By the same token, if a client makes a decision which, simply put, is wrong, I do the same thing.

    The client's opinoins ARE worth less than the developers. But his and the project leader's decisions are the final ones.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  3. #28
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    Definately Disagree

    The developers opinions are worth more than the clients?

    Wow studiococo, I completely disagree. Have you told your company president this?

    If the client asks you to do something illegal, immoral, dangerous, unworkable, you can always not take on the project.

  4. #29
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    All informed OPINIONS are better than uninformed opinions.

    Company president... Now, where did I misplace that desk plate...

    If a client thinks that pink and lime green are the best colour scheme in the world, I will inform him differently providing statistical as well as colour chart proof. If he DECIDES (different then opinion) to still go with it, I will do it, on the provision he signs a disclaimer stating it is not our fault.

    Where is the confusion in this? It is our duty to do for the client what is best for the client. It is not our duty to do everything he wants. I would rather he go elsewhere and have something crap done then have our name on it with a disclaimer.

    That said (just to make sure I'm not offending anyone), I DO think vbulletin was the best choice in this situation.

    This is sad that I'm needing to explain all of this. If you breathe and take a look at context you will find the explanation, thus saving me some typing.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  5. #30
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    And, if you insist on disagreeing with the above I'd really need to wonder what the mission statement for your company includes...

    "we do what you want, no matter how bad it is for your business, simply becuase you want it" ?

    I highly doubt it.

    Oours includes words like integrity, honour and experience. These things mean I cannot in all good conscience give the client what they want if it's wrong for them. I would rather pay a contract cancellation fee.

    It's called doing what is best for them, simple.

    edit: Sorry if the above sounded inflammatory or derogatory. It wasn't my intent.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  6. #31
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Interesting

    Our client's come first, not our technical staff. We don't talk down to the client and make them sign waivers when they override our opinions.
    Last edited by rgremill; Jul 11, 2001 at 08:58.

  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    So my joke about your mission statement is true?
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  8. #33
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Hmm...

    So you're not really reading my posts. I'll stop posting now, since you've stopped reading them.

    Here's my final post.

    Treat your customer's with respect. Don't talk down to them and don't think you know everything. Your customer's opinions have value. Your technical staff's opinions are valuable too but the client has the final word. (You probably don't know your customer's business as well as they do.)

    And P.S., take a couple of business classes about client relations.

    Also, I set up a poll so we can see who's opinion is more valuable, just for fun. Make sure to vote!
    Last edited by rgremill; Jul 11, 2001 at 09:13.

  9. #34
    What's HTML?
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    I hobble into a doctors office with a sprained ankle. It hurts like a son of a gun and I dramatize the whole situation. While moaning and groaning in the waiting room I finally get called into the examination room.

    Doc walks in and decides to put a simple wrap around my ankle. Nope, no good, my religion does not allow simple remedies like this. According to my religion, I must separate any pain and damaged properties from the rest of my soul. I need an amputation immediately.

    Doc says I'm crazy and will have nothing to do with an unnecessary operation this severe. But I'm the client, I'm right! Cut it off! He still refuses.

    Luckily, I find a doctor who will amputate. He doesn't give me any harassment or make me sign any silly disclaimer.

    A few months later I switch religions, this new religion helped me find myself. They also helped me realize that my amputation was ridiculous and the doctor never should have performed such an operation.

    I took the doc to court for 10 million dollars and won, he also lost his license. He now works at the 7-11 down the road.

    I really miss my foot, I can' t play soccer with the kids anymore. Sure wish I would have listened to the first doctor, even if he didn't do everything I wanted.
    Ryan Kuhle - A Proud Advisor - Got Questions? Just Ask!
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  10. #35
    :) delemtri's Avatar
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    Wow, that analogy sort of hits the nail on the head, eh?

  11. #36
    You talkin to me? Anarchos's Avatar
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    That just goes to show the inherent irrationality of organized religion.

  12. #37
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Hmm...

    Congratulations on winning $10 million!

  13. #38
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    Lol, no argument here Anarchos. By the way, both of my feet are wholly intact.
    Ryan Kuhle - A Proud Advisor - Got Questions? Just Ask!
    Get your website started for less than $20! Click Here

  14. #39
    You talkin to me? Anarchos's Avatar
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    You lied to us!!

  15. #40
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Stories.. Stories...

    A customer walks in a says he will give me $50K to create a website for him.

    He insists the website should be pink and lime green.

    I take the design back to my graphics artist and he tells me that the site should be blue because statistics show...

    I present the customer with a waiver document saying my company is not responsible for the eye strain caused by such a hideous site.

    The customer flips me the bird and leaves taking his $50K.

    My business folds due to lack of business and I become stressed.

    I change my religion and one day I hurt my foot...

    (NOW I understand...)
    Last edited by rgremill; Jul 11, 2001 at 13:27.

  16. #41
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    You do what the customer says and get mocked in your industry never getting another customer again.

    When asked why you did it you reply "I'll do anything for money" and promptly go work for George Bush.

    You saying no to a customer isn't the end of your business. 50K for a contract is not that large. There are other fish in the sea.

    Having said that, you don't just tell the customer where they can shove it, you explain your position and refer them to a designer who is just as good as you but doesn't have a problem with lime green and pink. The customer is then happy with the product, the designer AND you.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  17. #42
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    Funny.

    Is it getting political and personal in here or is it just me?

    In the example above the contractor loses thousands of contracts worth $50K a piece due to a non client focus and THEN sends his resume to George W, after collecting $10 million from his doctor's insurance company.
    Last edited by rgremill; Jul 11, 2001 at 14:00.

  18. #43
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    Apologies

    michaelwheaton, I apologize for your topic getting off track. I thought it was a great question.

  19. #44
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    He loses thousands of contracts?

    You doing what isn't good for a client will lose more business than a piddly 50K contract. Plain and simple.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  20. #45
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy
    beley's Avatar
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    Wow, is it a little hot in here? Not to get in the middle of this feud but both of you have valid points. It is a shame that web designers don't get the same respect that other professionals get such as doctors and lawyers... however, the client IS a very important part of the business.

    I strongly believe in good design... and believe that customers rarely know what good design is. That being said, there are ways to work around the problem of clients like Ike (I know everything).

    First, you talk to them... most of my clients trust my judgment. They trust me because I'm always honest with them. I don't sell them a 20K website when all they need is 5K... I don't sell them e-commerce if they'll never have a ROI (Return on Investment for the business illiterate).

    Second, you don't get personal. You state theories, facts, and statistics... not feelings or opinions.

    Third, HAVE GOOD CUSTOMER SERVICE... this one is definately the most important one... your customers may NOT know everything and they may not always be right but THEY ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN YOUR BUSINESS... because without clients, you wouldn't have a business.

    I have not targeted anyone in this post... I try to be professional in everything I do whether dealing with clients or colleagues. Please have the same respect for each other. We can help each other so much if we don't let our personal feelings and opinions get in the way. We are all professionals (well, except for the 13 yr olds :-) Can we please act like it?

  21. #46
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    I'm no so sure.

    Some of these 13 yr olds around here are pretty sharp and they probably are professionals.

  22. #47
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I dunno...I'm growing pretty accustomed to handling the backend work myself. I like the idea that, if I'm running a site, and I've built it (basically), that I'm accountable to myself, and that I should be able to fix my own system if need be. I'd say the one thing I'd need is a kick-a** web designer who understands usability and atmosphere, because I doubt I'll ever be all that good with design/graphic work.

  23. #48
    :) delemtri's Avatar
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    <offtopic>
    beley: I turned 14 a few weeks ago, so I take a bit of offense to your topic about 13 year olds.

    Please, do not judge people based on their age. It's rather superficial; although it does have a vague correlation with experience, different experiences vary from person to person. And due to the Web being rather young as of yet, teenagers and kids are more likely to be adept at it than they would be in, say, knot theory, so in this case you're especially judgmental.
    </offtopic>

    I sorta subscribe to the "Army of One" theory; I think it's best to be able to do a little bit of everything. Maybe a team of three web designers who can do a bit of everything but SPECIALIZE in certain fields would be best. For example you could have someone who did database work who would be good with business and user-based sites, someone who did graphic work who would be good with expressive sites, and someone who... uhh... I dunno, did other stuff. That way you could have more than one site being designed at once within the team.

  24. #49
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Re: Hmm...

    Originally posted by rgremill
    Treat your customer's with respect. Don't talk down to them and don't think you know everything. Your customer's opinions have value. Your technical staff's opinions are valuable too but the client has the final word. (You probably don't know your customer's business as well as they do.)
    Uh, the developers do know everything -- isn't that why the client hires them? If the client knows how it all works, they would do it themselves. I'm sorry, but there IS a line. At some points, you would be doing your clients a significant disservice by NOT bringing up your objections.

    And let's not get into religion here, alright? The leg analogy was a pretty bizzare reason to disagree with religion...seriously.

    EDIT: As for 13 year olds: I think people are meant to start working at a very young age by today's standards. People would have been working at 13 a long time ago if a medium like the web had allowed them to. Ya know, a few hundred years ago I'd probably be married and fighting in wars at 16
    Last edited by TWTCommish; Jul 11, 2001 at 21:20.

  25. #50
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    Sorry, but no.

    Uh, the developers do know everything -- isn't that why the client hires them?
    TWTCommish the developers most likely do not know the client's business. If the client says their customer's prefer lime green and pink who are you to argue?

    <off topic>
    delemtri, I am very envious of the younger people today. If only I had the internet available when I was your age! Your generation will interact with so many more people around the globe.

    </off topic>
    Last edited by rgremill; Jul 11, 2001 at 21:35.


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