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  1. #26
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    Off Topic:

    True. I'm aware of AJAX for example, XmlHttpRequest as another technology which bridges the gap between client and server side. How this is going to effect me from a development point of view I don't know at the moment, but this is one area I was referring to in my last post

    Not really looking forward to it, as it means I've just to stop what I'm (enjoying) doing, and learn this new technology and attempt to embrace it, as much as anything else

  2. #27
    SitePoint Guru BerislavLopac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    Why not consider making a good template manager ? JSP like, or Cocoon like ?
    PINJ*, my friend.

    First, JSP is Java's attempt to do things PHP-like; JSP 2.0 is nothing but a templating engine.

    Secondly, there are several PHP templating engines using XML syntax, and at least one port of Cocoon, called Popoon.

    But PHP has its specific features that Java can't emulate, and (especially) vice versa. E.g. using XML for config/ini/setup files makes a lot of sense in Java; in PHP with its import() and parse_ini_file() directives, it is a big overkill.

    We should develop by using whatever approach works best on a particular platform, instead of trying to make Frankenstein's monsters.

    --------------------
    * PHP is not Java.

  3. #28
    SitePoint Addict mx2k's Avatar
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    well good doctor, you never know, the w3c will probably come up with a totally different standards altogether that would bridge this, which could help or hinder.

  4. #29
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    First, JSP is Java's attempt to do things PHP-like; JSP 2.0 is nothing but a templating engine.
    Yes, but it is a really good one. Not easy to learn, but good.

    Secondly, there are several PHP templating engines using XML syntax, and at least one port of Cocoon, called Popoon.
    Yes, I am aware of that, but I was saying that either people should stop using Smarty or Smarty should evolve.

    We should develop by using whatever approach works best on a particular platform, instead of trying to make Frankenstein's monsters.
    You are 100% right, but I am sick and tired of implementing my own framework and my own templating engine because no good enough or mature enough framework exists for PHP. And this while the Zend guys are making speaches about how enterprise ready PHP is. I would really love to see a PHP specific solution to specific PHP problems, but the truth there is no such thing. And one solution is to at least port ideas from existing platforms that proved their value.

  5. #30
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    I would really love to see a PHP specific solution to specific PHP problems, but the truth there is no such thing.
    This is interesting, isn't it? Just what problems are you facing at the moment, and maybe we can discuss their solutions in more detail at the same time. If this is going off topic, can someone start a new thread?

  6. #31
    SitePoint Addict mx2k's Avatar
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    You are 100% right, but I am sick and tired of implementing my own framework and my own templating engine because no good enough or mature enough framework exists for PHP. And this while the Zend guys are making speaches about how enterprise ready PHP is. I would really love to see a PHP specific solution to specific PHP problems, but the truth there is no such thing. And one solution is to at least port ideas from existing platforms that proved their value.
    goes back to a previous point, you have small groups here and there doing their own thing and nothing on the scale to which they all wish their frameworks to take place. and many people have their own style and way of doing things. who is to decide what is critical and what is not? how much do you refractor into smaller classes to help fight bloat only to bare more weight into requires & includes?

    such things will need to evolve from the community, but most likely it will be from over a long period of time since we have a big community, but dispersed in visions & projects and such.

    I know myself that my time is limited and thinking on things like do i make one base collection object to inherit from or various versions of a collection object as some wrox books do, and etc. what methods and properties will i need on a general basis and what is just overkill.

  7. #32
    SitePoint Guru BerislavLopac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    I am sick and tired of implementing my own framework and my own templating engine because no good enough or mature enough framework exists for PHP.
    But it does, and it's even XML-compatible.

    It's called PHP...

  8. #33
    SitePoint Guru BerislavLopac's Avatar
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    Off Topic:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    Off Topic:

    ... learn this new technology...
    There's absolutely nothing new about Ajax, except the name (even that, in itself, is a few thousand years old).

  9. #34
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerislavLopac
    But it does, and it's even XML-compatible.

    It's called PHP...
    I wouldn't call a PHP an XML compatible language just because the code is laying between <?php and ?>. Do you mean that all code between < and > is XML compatible ? Or just PHP ?

    Try parsing it with an XSL parser. Now, how XML compatible is it now ?

  10. #35
    SitePoint Guru BerislavLopac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    I wouldn't call a PHP an XML compatible language just because the code is laying between <?php and ?>. Do you mean that all code between < and > is XML compatible ? Or just PHP ?

    Try parsing it with an XSL parser. Now, how XML compatible is it now ?
    No, I mean that <?something is a standard XML way of denoting processing instructions. If it is defined in DTD, XSLT should have no problem with it -- it can copy it, ignore it or whatever.

  11. #36
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    No, I mean that <?something is a standard XML way of denoting processing instructions. If it is defined in DTD, XSLT should have no problem with it -- it can copy it, ignore it or whatever.
    You are right about one thing: <?something?> will be ignored by XML parsers. But you cannot define it in a DTD and parse it as a valid XML tag.

    An element in XML has the following format:
    <xml-valid_name attribute1="value1" attribute2='value2' ... attribute_n='value_n'>

    And the DTD that defines it is (assuming that the tag can only contain text):

    <!ELEMENT xml-valid_name (#PCDATA)>
    <!ATTLIST xml-valid_name
    attribute1 CDATA #IMPLIED
    attribute2 CDATA #IMPLIED
    ....
    attribute_n CDATA #IMPLIED
    >

    So, how can you define <? foreach ($array AS $key) { ?> ?

  12. #37
    SitePoint Wizard stereofrog's Avatar
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    No, processing instruction isn't "ignored" by xml parser. It can be read and processed like any other regular node. Its nodeType is 7 (NODE_PROCESSING_INSTRUCTION), if you care

  13. #38
    SitePoint Guru BerislavLopac's Avatar
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    I stand corrected about the DTD. I know what are XML elements.

    But <?php foreach($array as $key) : ?> is perfectly legal syntax in an XML document. Unfortunately, <?= $var ?> is not.

  14. #39
    SitePoint Zealot HenriIV's Avatar
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    Did you check Mojavi framework? It's php5 mvc framework and it's quite nice except documentation.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by arborint
    Struts in Java is a beautiful thing. I have used it and it certainly makes building large sites with a team a structured process.

    I think the central ideas of Struts are shared by many frameworks, but the most successful PHP frameworks have abandoned the idea of porting Struts. Even the Java world is moving away from Struts to more lightweight container based frameworks.
    This project implements the same sample application in several Java frameworks. What struck me about the examples was how crufty the struts version looked in comparison to the others.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selkirk
    This project implements the same sample application in several Java frameworks. What struck me about the examples was how crufty the struts version looked in comparison to the others.
    I agree. But it sure would be nice if PHP has a crufty old standard as good as Struts.

    The other thing I noticed is that most new Java "frameworks" are not frameworks in the current PHP sense. They are really more component/library "distros" that combine existing controllers, persistence libraries, etc. for you in a easy to use way.
    Christopher

  17. #42
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    ZNF 0.7.5 released

    We've just released the 0.7.5 version of the framework with some nice new features. You can check it out at http://znf.zeronotice.com. Don't forget to join the mailing list if you find the project interesting.

  18. #43
    throw me a bone ... now bonefry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arborint
    I agree. But it sure would be nice if PHP has a crufty old standard as good as Struts.

    The other thing I noticed is that most new Java "frameworks" are not frameworks in the current PHP sense. They are really more component/library "distros" that combine existing controllers, persistence libraries, etc. for you in a easy to use way.
    Struts is hard to implement in PHP because it has the power of servlets and JSPs behind it. Besides being an MVC framework, those JSPs with custom tags really rock. I wish there was something similar for PHP. Smarty sucks.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    Struts is hard to implement in PHP because it has the power of servlets and JSPs behind it. Besides being an MVC framework, those JSPs with custom tags really rock. I wish there was something similar for PHP.
    I didn't mean Struts for PHP which has been tried many times. I meant a well written, well designed, broadly used framework that other tool and frameworks builders can expand from.
    Quote Originally Posted by bonefry
    Smarty sucks.
    Agreed.
    Christopher

  20. #45
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by HenriIV
    Did you check Mojavi framework? It's php5 mvc framework and it's quite nice except documentation.
    Mojavi seems to be discontinued. Agavi (http://agavi.org) will be the next.

    Smarty sucks.
    Smarty is good but PHPTAL (http://phptal.motion-twin.com) and PHPSavant (http://phpsavant.com ) is better (at least on speed)

  21. #46
    SitePoint Evangelist ghurtado's Avatar
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    Agavi looks very promising, I just got done viewing the Quickstart movie (http://agavi.org/?page=QuickStartMovie) and I would say that it has a lot of potential. It seems to have a hint of Rails, which is not a bad thing either.
    Garcia

  22. #47
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    Can't say I agree on the basis of the Agavi video...it seemed to take an endless amount of time just to do something as simple as pulling some text from the query string and displaying it in the browser. The endless method chaining bothered me too.

  23. #48
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    The endless method chaining bothered me too.
    Such as this...??

    PHP Code:
    // from my short term memory...
    $this -> setAttribute'text'$this -> Context() -> Request() -> getParameter'text' ) ); 
    Yer, I kind of have to agree with you, it's just gone all crazy

  24. #49
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    Yup, thats the stuff. Would really get on my nerves eventually, even with macros.

  25. #50
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    To all you people saying "Smarty Sucks", do you care to mention why?


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