bye bye smart tags

[RussellG]

From this article: http://www.internetnews.com/wd-news/...793261,00.html

Microsoft Scraps Smart Tags Plan
By the InternetNews.com Staff

Following weeks of outraged criticism, Microsoft Corp. Thursday backed away from plans to include the Smart Tags feature in Windows XP's Internet Explorer 6.

The Smart Tags feature would allow IE 6 to turn any word on a Web site into a link at Microsoft's discretion. That link, without the Web site author's knowledge or consent, could lead to a Microsoft site or, conceivably, the site of a Microsoft partner or even an advertiser.

Critics said the feature gives Microsoft too much leverage over how users interact with Web pages.

The company reportedly will keep the Smart Tags feature in Office XP.

The final version of Windows XP is due to ship in October.

I'm glad, it was the one thing about IE6 I didnt like.

[Aidan Bahta]

This was announced three days ago at http://www.sitepointforums.com/showt...ght=Smart+Tags

Anyway, I am glad as most web developers (and other people who have an opinion) are.

[RussellG]

Heh. Whoops. I was kind of happy when I read this and didnt even consider that someone else may have posted it before me

[TWTCommish]

I wasn't too worried -- apparently I'd be able to use some DOCTYPE-type tag to disable them anyway. I read a hilarious article on the subject where every sentence or two a word would be bolded and in parentheses, a description of where it would like to was placed.

[Sparkie]

Woohoo! The not-so-smart tags are gone!

But..what is the purpose of having them in Office XP?

[westmich]

Originally posted by Sparkie
Woohoo! The not-so-smart tags are gone!

But..what is the purpose of having them in Office XP?

So the next time you type "Ford" in a Word document, Microsoft can show where your local dealer is

[Seer]

Even if I could have disabled it, I just didn't really care for the idea. Who's to say Microsoft wasn't taking bids for these smart tags. I could be mistaken, but it seems a lot like purchasing keywords in search engines.

[Sparkie]

Originally posted by westmich

So the next time you type "Ford" in a Word document, Microsoft can show where your local dealer is

I hear enough about cars from TV commercials! Not my computer too!

[OdIgO]

Yikes, it seems like making a webpage would become as hard in MSIE as it is in NS... Microsoft--Don't destroy the one popular-friendly browser! =)

[thewitt]

Originally posted by OdIgO
Microsoft--Don't destroy the one popular-friendly browser! =)

Of course they will. With no serious competition, they will do exactly what they please.

They will also bring back smart-tags in the Browser. They will be in Word, Excel and PowerPoint, so they will eventually make it into IE as well.

-t

[RussellG]

Smart Tags in Office documents are a good idea actually. I read an article on it and they can be quite helpful.

[norfett]

Originally posted by thewitt


Of course they will. With no serious competition, they will do exactly what they please.

They will also bring back smart-tags in the Browser. They will be in Word, Excel and PowerPoint, so they will eventually make it into IE as well.

-t

Why shouldnt they do what they please? afterall, it is thier browser. They do have serious competition - Mozilla, even MS wouldnt forget that...

[thewitt]

Originally posted by norfett


Why shouldnt they do what they please? afterall, it is thier browser. They do have serious competition - Mozilla, even MS wouldnt forget that...

Don't worry, they will do what they please. I fully expect them to do so - regardless of W3C standards that attempt to keep the web open and not proprietary.

As for Mozilla providing serious competition - please, don't even try to sell that one.

-t

[creole]

jeez thewitt...

Paranoid are we? Watch out behind you.

[thewitt]

Originally posted by creole
jeez thewitt...

Paranoid are we? Watch out behind you.

I consider it educated through experience .

Who's that behind me, anyway?

[Michel V]

Originally posted by westmich

So the next time you type "Ford" in a Word document, Microsoft can show where your local dealer is

Oh cool, now if your last name is Ford and you don't happento like Ford cars, people will still see your name associated with them.
By the way I downloaded the IE6 smart-tags "for everyday use", and the only word I ever saw underlined aws "Microsoft"...

[creole]

go figure...

[Elledan]

Originally posted by thewitt
As for Mozilla providing serious competition - please, don't even try to sell that one.

Hmm... Mozilla has been my default browser since version 0.6. It's now at 0.9.2 and I just love this browser

They've fixed the worst stability issues in this version and I can now run Mozilla all day long without crashes. It's a lot faster than IE as well.

[Jeremy W.]

First off it's still sad that stability is a feature...

I also think this whole thing is the saddest degree of web developer elitism and "we know what the user wants more than they do" and "it's my webpage" that I've ever seen.

I'd also like to dispel some easy myths that come as a result of the above fears...

"Even if I could have disabled it, I just didn't really care for the idea. Who's to say Microsoft wasn't taking bids for these smart tags. I could be mistaken, but it seems a lot like purchasing keywords in search engines."

No, it's from a public repository that MS bought. It was also going to be regulated by an outside body if it "grew" at all.

thewitt: Educated through experience? You surprise me, I truly thought part of being a consultant was watching for the future, not fearing the past. Constantly reminding yourself of what's best for your customer, not your own presuppositions. Perhaps I'm wrong though?

Also, one final piece here is that users (as evidenced by a poll published this weekend in a large canadian paper) love the idea of relevant info at their fingertips. And, if our job isn't to do what users want, I'm not entirely sure what it is.

[thewitt]

Originally posted by studiococo
[clip]thewitt: Educated through experience? You surprise me, I truly thought part of being a consultant was watching for the future, not fearing the past. Constantly reminding yourself of what's best for your customer, not your own presuppositions. Perhaps I'm wrong though?
[clip]

One of the things that makes me wildly successful is that I produce stable, fully standards compliant, usable websites.

No bleeding edge - only works in one browser - only works on one platform - only works with xyz-enabled technology.

My customers can expect a very long life (many still runs sites built in 1996; all they do is continue to add content to their shopping cart or content management system). This is cost effective consulting - both for the customer and me.

As much as many of you love to do the latest and greatest thing for your customers, when you limit their marketablilty you ultimately do them a disservice. I have taken many sites built using the latest and greatest whizz-bang technology and made them usable for the client after they had already spent much $$$ paying for glitz and glitter.

I'm also very clear with a perspective client that I'm not the right place to come for the latest in glitz and Flash and fly-by-night web technology. If this is important to them, they need to go somewhere else. I've been in the computer business as a professional since 1982, and I pride myself in not getting sucked into the program of the month.

With a stable of very satisfied customers who don't hesitate to bring me back for repeat business or refer to me other clients, I'm pleased with the strategy that I'm using, and my track record of staying away from anything that smells like captive business practices.

Paranoia? No. Business intelligence? Absolutely. If it smells dirty, it most likely is dirty. Microsoft will definately sell Smart Tags to the highest bidder - it's what they do. Is it inherently bad? Nope. It's business. Do I support it? Not if I can help it.

-t

[Jeremy W.]

Oh, give up the bloody rant.

The comment wasn't that you weren't succesful or didn't have experience but that ST as a technology (not necessarily the implementation) is a great one for users and as such should be given due consideration not "it's bad because ms built it" which is essentially waht you're saying (they always do this, they always do that... This is something that I was taught is frowned upon in consulting. Definitives are the jobs of the analysts and pundits, our job is provide the best solution for the client).

Having said that, Flash is in it's 5th year so is no longer a "fly by night" technology and has gone through less changes than HTML or SGML. It is more browser friendly (as it is browser independent) and features added in flash work, period.

No, I'm not a fanatic, nor am I someone who grapples for every new technology as that would be an unwise use of my time.

However, having said that, if you had shopping carts and CMS's back in '96 you were definitely using non-standard technology and implementation and it is pure luck more than anything that they still work. Not that they were badly written, just pure luck the technologies didn't fade and leave you hanging.

To me, paranoia is defined as an unsubstantiated or unchecked fear. To you the fear (or whatever, pick another word if this one offends you) is substantiated however the reality is that your response shows you are against it simply because it is MS. Yes, I agree there are better ways of "doing this" however they weren't given a chance and that is the very definition of fear.

[thewitt]

Originally posted by studiococo
[clip]However, having said that, if you had shopping carts and CMS's back in '96 you were definitely using non-standard technology and implementation and it is pure luck more than anything that they still work. Not that they were badly written, just pure luck the technologies didn't fade and leave you hanging.[clip]

Luck? Sorry, I don't attribute my success to luck. Hard work, compliance to standards, use of solid and stable tools, yes. Luck, not hardly.

I'm a Computer Engineer by education and a programmer and Systems Engineer by training and practice - not an HTML tagger who calls himself a programmer. What I build are systems, using solid engineering practices and principles. The fact that they result in HTML being generated as the output is really only a small part of the solution.

I also know where my limitations are, and hire graphics artists and industrial engineers when I need the space addressed. It goes with putting together the right system to address the problem at hand.

Using technologies that I believe will be around in 5+ years is not something I take lightly. I've only recently switched to PHP from Perl and C even more recently to server side Java. No servlets or reliance on the client side to be smart "anything" or to have any plug in capable of serving Flash or any other technology.

Makes thewitt a dull boy? Perhaps. Makes my sites stable and long lived - always.

-t

[Jeremy W.]

So Perl couldn't have faded with years? Java or C couldn't have?

Hardly.

I never said you were an HTML coder, nor that you didn't have experience. I respect your knowledge however I feel that your opinion on this matter (and this matter only) is based more on fear or presupposition than the facts at hand.

Further, the fact that you have an education means absolutely nothing to me as most analysts and creators of high-profile technologies are much more educated than the both of us put together and thus it isn't education that matters.

What does matter are things like intuition, examination of the facts, etc. However, in the end my "guess" that html will die in the next 5 years is just that, a guess. Sure, I can support that guess and make a presentation to convince just about anyone however that doens't change the reality that technolgoy and specifically the internet change too fast to predict a 5 year timeframe.

At the same time I wasn't criticizing your sites (you're sounding a bit defensive), simply saying that in THIS instance, yes your site may be "long lived" however is it the best for teh client to have a site that is long lived or one that does what users may well demand? If a client's users expect something (with good reason) it is something we are honour bound to mention to the client (along with relevant market information).

No, I do not think this go of ST was the right one, however the reality is this is something users will come to demand in the next few years and being acquainted with the concept is never a bad thing.

[thewitt]

Sorry. I'll stop defending my opinion and framing my reference - but I did feel my point of reference was attacked and so did naturally defend.

Here's a different approach.

Indeed only time will tell if Smart Tags are something that the average user wants or just a way for Microsoft to sell advertising embedded in their applications or on your web pages.

I know I don't want Microsoft linking words on my web pages to anything. I suspect I would sue them if they did. It would be an interesting suit - but as Microsoft would be altering my copyrighted material for their gain, I suspect I would win.

In your support of the technology, where do you draw the line? Is it acceptable for Microsoft to link only unlinked words on your web site to something of their choosing? Can they relink existing links if they don't like where you are sending someone? What about replacing only links to their trademarked names? Popping up drop down lists when a link is selected allowing users to go to alternative links than the ones you have decided to use?

What is the acceptable use that you believe this technology enables?

Why do you believe that Microsoft will stop at what you deem acceptable in use?

-t

[Jeremy W.]

Fair enough.

Smart Tags are not, nor are there any plans for them to be, an advertising medium, tool, trick, etc.

Therefore, many of your questions seem rather... Well, for lack of a better word (I'm tired today) fear-based.

Can they relink existing links... No, locally defined ST's will always override the web-archive. Thus, if I wanted to recreate an ST for Microsoft and say they were the devil I could.

The above also deals with SOME of the copyright concerns, however there is a lot of recent precedence saying that "opt-in" (choose to be in a program) is more "legally right" than "opt-out" (ask to be taken out).

Further, the only way for "popping up drop down lists" to happen would be for more code to automatically be embedded at runtime, which would require access to the server OR for clients to download a recompiler and new list regularly (daily more than likely) which would not be good for business at all (clients downloading addin packages daily would create a rather pissed off user base.

Why should I believe microsoft won't? Further, since it's a publicly controlled database at the moment, why should I feel threatened is a more accurate question.

However, again, I'm not supporting THIS incarnation of ST (or whatever it becomes), just the concept of a user having the information they might want at their fingertips.

A good example would be CNet NEWS, this article: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200...html?tag=tp_pr Where you can get information on the dog in the passenger seat, related technologies, etc.

I believe this is the PERFECT implementation of this kind of system and that an ST-type technology would make it even more appleaing to users and develoeprs (no extra pages, just the one). Especially when the content could easily be written from a database