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  1. #76
    Resident Java Hater
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougBTX
    The guy who wrote Java also thought about them, but also tuned them down
    What I do find quite interesting about Ruby is the way that it seems to be going the complete opposite direction to Java, yet it's main non Japanse audience seems to be Java programmers (and to some degree PHP developers, which kinda makes sense as PHP seems to be going the Java route as well). The other intersting thing to me is the way that despite the hype about Ruby being something fairly new in the web programming field, the language it's self seems to be reintroducing a lot of features from old fashioned / "dead" programming languages like Perl / Smalltalk / Lisp. Funny how history repeats its self really.

  2. #77
    SitePoint Guru BerislavLopac's Avatar
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    Smalltalk was way ahead of its time. It's still one of the most advanced programming languages.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    I know PHP really well, I have a good idea on Java and Swing, and now I'm more interested in Python, so I'm happy enough with this lot
    I agree. While Ruby sure looks "interesting", I can't see myself actually using it for a real project anytime soon. Python is just so unbeatably elegant and productive in its syntax, contrary to the initial impressions of so many C (and C-variant) programmers.

    I have grown to love the whitespace syntax of Python; you don't need those stupid curly braces, you don't need "begin" and/or "end" statements, you don't need semicolons; you don't need anything but one space. IMO, that's as easy as it gets, and people tend to indent anyway when they code, so it's that much easier.

    I'm not sure if anyone here realizes this (or has really acknowledged it), but Ruby's Python derivation is incredibly obvious when you look at even the easiest Ruby program; it uses "def" to signal function declarations, just as Python does; it uses "#" for comments, just as Python (and Perl) do; it intends to be as close to complete OOP as a language gets, just as Python does (although I think Ruby is trying too hard, sort of like they're trying just to prove something).

    I really like the idea of Rails, in theory, but as yet, it seems more a toy than anything worth considering in a large production environment. Then again, everyone has their biases; mine happens to be Python, coincidentally (or not) the language from which Ruby derives much of its syntax and philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    I think that once all the recent hype has burnt away, you'll proberly be left scratching your head and asking yourself, WTF, just like myself
    Yeah, at this point, I really can't tell if Ruby is here to stay, or if it's one of those fads that quietly fades away out of the limelight before it's ever really big.

    Regarding PHP, well, let's just say I can't stand 99.9% of the PHP code I've seen, whether it was official PHP.net examples, other people's projects, or even my own. All of the code just looks so inelegant and forced; I can't even begin to fathom the hundreds of the built-in functions that I see so often in PHP "applications". I think PHP is at the point where it's becoming bloated; it's trying to cram in every little feature imaginable into its own function, and this PHP 5 OOP stuff is just scary. It's as though this little scripting language is trying to compete with Java. It's even more so if you've read the history of PHP and its developers' original intentions.

  4. #79
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperDevil
    although I think Ruby is trying too hard, sort of like they're trying just to prove something
    Although your post is inflammatory, I do agree with this point: the biggest difference between Ruby and Python is not in the features of the languages, but the philosophy that drives them. Ruby takes objects, and lets you program procedurally with them, eg 1 + 2 rather than 1.add(2), while Python builds objects ontop of a procedural foundation.

    Quote Originally Posted by SniperDevil
    you don't need semicolons; you don't need anything but one space
    Not quite true, you do need an extra colon:

    Code:
    def my_function():
      # do something
    vs
    Code:
    def my_function()
      # do something
    end
    Personally I'd rather neither, this seems to be all you need:

    Code:
    def my_function()
      # do something
    Quote Originally Posted by SniperDevil
    at this point, I really can't tell if Ruby is here to stay, or if it's one of those fads that quietly fades away out of the limelight before it's ever really big.
    Ruby and Python are both more than a decade old, I think they'll both be around this time next year, don't worry about that

    Douglas
    Hello World

  5. #80
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Hi...

    Quote Originally Posted by SniperDevil
    Regarding PHP, well, let's just say I can't stand 99.9% of the PHP code I've seen,
    We've recently been recoding a mostly Perl back end with Ruby. Some parts of the code are needed in both Ruby and PHP and so I've been witness to an interesting comparison between the languages.

    As far as conciseness is concerned, OO Perl just sucks. The ruby files as a group are about a third to a fifth of the size of the Perl originals. Note that I am talking only about OO perl here, not straight script code which is about equivalent. This is with all of the package, the ISA array, blessing and so on, so Perl 5 not Perl 6. Interesting is that the PHP versions don't come out that much larger than the Ruby ones.

    We have two identically functional pieces and one is about a third larger and the other only a few percent. That said our Ruby skills are not great. A few more blocks and fancy metaclassing hacks might reduce things further. In readability it's two votes to PHP over Ruby and one undecided (a mainly Java developer).

    One thing so far unmentioned. Ruby is a real amalgum of different languages: Perl, CLU, C, Smalltalk to name just a few (there are probably others I haven't recognised). This means that I don't feel I have learned much from it. The languages that have had a real impact are ones that have been, well not pure exactly, but committed to a way of doing things. For example Prolog, Haskell, C, C++ and even PHP. There is no shock value in Ruby.

    Ruby is above all a pragmatic workhorse it seems.

    yours, Marcus
    Marcus Baker
    Testing: SimpleTest, Cgreen, Fakemail
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougBTX
    Although your post is inflammatory, I do agree with this point: the biggest difference between Ruby and Python is not in the features of the languages, but the philosophy that drives them. Ruby takes objects, and lets you program procedurally with them, eg 1 + 2 rather than 1.add(2), while Python builds objects ontop of a procedural foundation.
    First of all, how is my post inflammatory? I don't see that, but I doubt you said that for no reason.

    Programming must be procedural; after all, you have to tell the computer what to do with the objects you've created, even if it's using objects' methods procedurally.

    I don't quite understand what you're saying about Python building objects on top of a procedural foundation; perhaps you can explain that a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by DougBTX
    Not quite true, you do need an extra colon:
    Notice that I didn't say "colon", but "semicolon". Granted, you do need the colon to mark the beginning of the code block, but whitespace, rather than semicolons and braces, is primarily used.

    Quote Originally Posted by DougBTX
    Ruby and Python are both more than a decade old, I think they'll both be around this time next year, don't worry about that
    I understand that they are both more than a decade old -- though Python is, in fact, two years older than Ruby -- but I was simply pointing out that it is quite obvious which is more popular and which has a more established reputation, if nothing else; many people haven't even heard of Ruby. They'll both probably be around for a long time to come, but I don't foresee Ruby surpassing Python in popularity or reputation anytime soon.

  7. #82
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperDevil
    First of all, how is my post inflammatory? I don't see that, but I doubt you said that for no reason.
    You seem to argue that Ruby was a Python clone: Ruby takes from more than just Python A tiny bit of history here if you're interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by SniperDevil
    Programming must be procedural; after all, you have to tell the computer what to do with the objects you've created, even if it's using objects' methods procedurally.
    Well, that's really what I was getting at. Do you take a set of functions, and join them together to make objects, or do you take a set of objects, and send messages between them? At a high level you can ask these questions, at a low level everything is going through the a processor (or two).

    Sorry for nitpicking the syntax in your post like that, it sort of got in the way of the more interseting question of language design

    Douglas
    Hello World

  8. #83
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winner Gambler
    Ruby is not whitespace sensative and you do not have to constantly pass a refernce to the object itself to methods. Seems like two strikes against Python when compared to Ruby to me.


    www.SPAM.com
    www.SPAM.com
    www.SPAM.org
    www.SPAM.net
    www.SPAM.com
    Yes, you f****** spammer. I know another language that is whitespace sensitive. It's even called Whitespace ( see : http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ ) :-D
    participate to the best Php Wiki
    my blog ...

  9. #84
    eschew sesquipedalians silver trophy sweatje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimba
    Yes, you f****** spammer. I know another language that is whitespace sensitive. It's even called Whitespace ( see : http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ ) :-D
    Thanks for quoting this deleted post and contributing to the spammers cause

  10. #85
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweatje
    Thanks for quoting this deleted post and contributing to the spammers cause
    What contribution ? Apart from the extra removed links from the quote, I don't see

    participate to the best Php Wiki
    my blog ...

  11. #86
    eschew sesquipedalians silver trophy sweatje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimba
    What contribution ? Apart from the extra removed links from the quote, I don't see

    Mainly the fact that the SPAMMERS "content" was copied from a post I made earlier in the thread (and has since be rehashed many times in the thred) and I would would overall just perfer to see the moderators delete the post ( and the spammmers id ) and not think about it again. Just grumpy I guess.

  12. #87
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Sorry sweatje, won't happen again. Btw I appreciate your talks on this forum

    Off Topic:

    it's incredible, the spammer bots are getting more and more sophisticated. Like SitePoint's popups that bypass the firefox ad-blocker
    participate to the best Php Wiki
    my blog ...

  13. #88
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    I have been a Python user for some time now and love it.

    After looking at Ruby and particularly Ruby on Rails it reminds me a lot of Java Struts. The only difference I see is that there are no XML files that hold metadata about the model, view, and controller. Which, to me, is a good thing. I always considered the XML files in Struts to be clunky and overly complicated.

    The syntax seemed a little foreign to me at first, but I'm catching on. I really like the way a database is accessed (the .yml file), does anyone know about the security of this? Is it completely inaccessable from outside the webroot?

    You all that have been using Ruby for a while now, where do you see it in 3-5 years? Do you think it will be a PHP or is the hype just that, hype?

    I am going to go to the bookstore today and see if I can find a good Ruby book, any suggestions?

  14. #89
    eschew sesquipedalians silver trophy sweatje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    I am going to go to the bookstore today and see if I can find a good Ruby book, any suggestions?
    The PickAxe book is widly considered the Ruby "bible".
    Jason Sweat ZCE - jsweat_php@yahoo.com
    Book: PHP Patterns
    Good Stuff: SimpleTest PHPUnit FireFox ADOdb YUI
    Detestable (adjective): software that isn't testable.

  15. #90
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweatje
    The PickAxe book is widly considered the Ruby "bible".
    Thanks for the suggestion. I am guessing that the Agile Development with Rails is the only Rails book there is? (or the best one?)

  16. #91
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
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    This page says "4th book comming" http://www.loudthinking.com/arc/000427.html

    Also: http://www.loudthinking.com/arc/000465.html "First Rails book... The Agile Web Development with Rails book as sold more than 1,000 copies in just the first week available. And it's not even finished!"
    Hello World

  17. #92
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    It's official....

    I'm in love with Ruby. I still love Python but Ruby is great!

  18. #93
    SitePoint Zealot bronze trophy
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    Heh, Python to Ruby is not such a big transition... I was using mainly Perl before ;D

    What I like about Ruby (and from what I've seen, Python) is that it is easy to use. With any other language, you code for a while then you go "Oops, I want to achieve X but because of Y and Z the language doesn't support that.". A crappy feeling.

    With Ruby you code for a while then you go "Hmm, check this one off on my to-do list and pick up the next project.". And you have fun doing it!
    If there is a way to overcome the suffering, there is no need to worry; if there is no way to overcome the suffering, there is no point to worry.
    - Shantideva

  19. #94
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    I do not use it. But i will use it in the future.


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