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  • Great article, very balanced!

    0 0%
  • Okay, some info is off though

    1 12.50%
  • Too biased, fix stuff and I'll love you!

    4 50.00%
  • Sucks **** mate

    3 37.50%
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  1. #1
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    ASP vs PHP article *feedback required

    Here is the current state of it... Comments/suggestions?

    Aright, this won't be a full essay, just a quick rundown cause I'm real tired. Expect a full essay on the site when it goes live May1.
    I think I really need a disclaimer right here at the top: This is all personal opinion.
    That said, the subject of this article should be quite obvious, I'm simply going to present some pros and cons for ASP and PHP, however you should know a few things first: I prefer ASP, my PHP experience is limited though I have no problem doing it on request.
    Anyways, advantages of php: Fast (faster by default than asp, though asp can be made to go much faster by those who know, however by default it is faster), xNix based (I don't consider this an advantage for reasons I'll explain in the asp section), open-source (yeah, in one sense it is, but not in the true sense. Yes, the engine is available to be updated, the runtime code is available anytime and such but I don't really see any of this as an advantage, I feel it's just a thing we've thrown on teh whole Open Source bandwagon. All scripting is source code viewable. The true Open Source is for the sharing of information and I can't honestly say that happens MORE in the php environment than in the asp environment), scalable (yeah... what scripting and object oriented language isn't? It's called components, get a grip), low learning curve (yeah right, php isn't a good language to start on as the syntax structure is quite unique to xNix langauges), familiar to xNix folks (yup, and if xNix is your platform of choice, you should definitely choose this language), free (I'll cover this in asp), community support (cover it again in asp), cross platform (only if you install the correct custom windoze module, which isn't technically cross platform, though it IS much more portable than asp)
    advantages of asp: COM-based architecture (only an advantage if you're in a win environment. Though php CAN access COM structure as well, it doesn't do it in nearly the same manner... In fact it's slower to access COM components in php than to use php's native environment), ms based (yeah, I know you xNix folks think this is a disadvantage cause of that evil "proprietary" word, but in an enterprise setting we need accountable support, and that's not something you get with php. I realise the xNix community is AMAZING at support, however this is not accountable support, and it is often NOT complete, it is helpful hints more than anything. However if that is your preference, obviously go there), access to nt security and central settings (don't let's talk xNix security is better than NT and all that. The issue is that the security is built in instead of being a php-based security component. If NT security gets better, asp's will automatically get better. Though, I will admit xNix is more secure, I'm not entirely sure that's not because more effort is devoted to cracking through MS stuff), lower learning curve (there is a larger amount of people familiar with vb or C++ style of programming than who are familiar with xNix style languages. Further vbs is much more conversational and easy to learn than xNix style languages (I've taught both, so know the kind of "huh?" I get when trying to teach logic-style languages)).
    Anyways, guess my conclusion is, they are BOTH just as viable depending on your environment, preferences and experience. If you know xNix and it's environment, protocols and language style and are an individual developer or one within an xNix environment, I'd suggest going with php.
    However, if you are developing for an enterprise which DOES use NT and it's security structure there is no reason to institute another clearance area which also needs to be managed because the number of security related problems is traditionally equal to the SQUARE of separate security systems and policies which are in place.
    ASP is not better. PHP is not better. They are both tools which do the same job (better than JSP/CFM/CGI/TAME do, generally, not knocking those who use those languages).
    Anyways, that's my assessment which could change as I get back into xNix stuff and finish 3 higher end asp environment apps.

    Jeremy C. Wright
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  2. #2
    You talkin to me? Anarchos's Avatar
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    PHP structure is based off of a combination of Java, C++, and Perl, there is no "xNix" uniqueness to it, it's just basic functional programming.

    Yes, PHP is "technically" cross-platform. Write a script without utilizing system-dependent CLI calls and it'll work on "windoze" or unix.

    I don't see any point to the 2nd-to-last sentence at all.

    The article was far too superficial and you have no facts or supporting evidence to backup any claims. Also, don't put your arguments in parentheses, write in paragraphs. As far as your writing style, I think you need to elaborate more and rephrase certain thoughts, such as "don't let's talk xNix security is better than NT and all that", and "I've taught both, so know the kind of 'huh?' I get when trying to teach logic-style languages".

    Finally, if your PHP experience is limited, I see no point to an article that will be significantly biased.

  3. #3
    You talkin to me? Anarchos's Avatar
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    Sheesh I think studiococo deserves more than one reply...

  4. #4
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Naw, don't worry, I'm gonna rewrite the whole thing, I'm getting a lot of help from my friends
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  5. #5
    Xbox why have you forsaken me? moospot's Avatar
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    Sounds strangely like Ringo talking

    I am an ASP fan and agree with your points, but it does sound a bit biased. Maybe list the advantages and disadvantages separately instead of using parentheses every other phrase. You have very solid points otherwise. Try not to make the article Penguin vs. Evil Empire, but try to stay more objective. I think (most) people will have already made their conclusions prior to reading your article.

    Hope I helped!

  6. #6
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Okay, not to offend studiococo, as it's a well written article, but:

    whether you're an ASP fan or a PHP fan, why bother writing the article? People are going to stick with their coding background and personal preference. To many people the advantages would just be words on a page, because they're already tied deeply into whichever form of programming they use most (be it the PHP or ASP style). It seems to not have as much of a purpose, which i see as the foundation for a good article. I do like the way it would spark controversy, though.

    I, however, will not vote on this, because I have yet to see how it will turn out after it is rewritten.

    good effort studiococo, I would've supported you more if I could.
    Sean Killeen [LinkedIn] [Twitter] [Web]

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  7. #7
    You talkin to me? Anarchos's Avatar
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    These types of articles are good for people who want to get into server-side development but don't know which language to pursue.

  8. #8
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Great, thanx again for the comments. I'm rewriting this one and 3 others to try and get it structured so it makes more sense, I'll keep y'all posted
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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    Twitter: @jeremywright

  9. #9
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    Here are some of my observations that are either related or unrelated to points made by studiococo:

    The first point I would raise (and I believe its been discussed ad finitum on these boards already) is that ASP is part of MS/.NET/COM architecture and platform and thus if you are writing web services that need to integrate with other services or sub-systems that share this platform (such as IIS) then ASP is obviously the way to go.

    The MS Visual Basic language is an syntactic abomination. Some people love it, for some reason I hate it. People probably think I'm a crank for saying this, but its just something I'll take to the grave with me. Regarding supporting object-oriented programming, the only language I have personally used that provides pure and powerful object-orientedness is C++. I know that the .NET platform improves object-orientedness in those languages that impliment it such as VB (such as better support of inheritence and interfaces). Perhaps the best thing about .NET (and ASP) is the introduction of C# (MS's replacement for the absence of a licence for Java).

    Another plus for the .NET platform and ASP is ADO. ADO makes working with result set from db queries or directly with table data easy. Also, ADOs data shaping abilities are nice too (but complicated).

    On the other hand I think that PHPs object orientedness is rather flimsy, such as not protecting the scope of class members (allowing their scope to be set to private). I wonder about the performance of object-oriented code in PHP as well. But I am not so concerned about the object-orientedness of PHP. For ASP it is important (and thus the complete rewrite of the common compiler of the .NET platform) because it needs to integrate with the entire .NET/COM platform, just as JSP needs to integrate fully with the J2EE platform. PHP, as I will agrue again in the concluding remarks of this verbal flatulence, is more of a stand-alone platform, designed to work with the web server (usally Apache), a RDMS, SMTP, and other services where their libraries have been compiled in.

    php isn't a good language to start on as the syntax structure is quite unique to xNix langauges
    I must take direct issue with this opinion. To my way of thinking PHP basically impliments the C language. Pretty much all the standard functions available in standard C libraries have the same names and provide the same services in the PHP language. The only difference is the $ prefix to variable names, and of course the loose typing of PHP. Loose typing makes coding in PHP much easier too.

    The one single thing that has impressed me about PHP is the amazing flexability of its arrays. PHP arrays are not simple arrays in the C, C++, Java sense of the word. I have not experienced another langauge that packs so much usefullness and flexibility into the one data container. Personally, I have always found managing a collection of types, be they primative types or user defined types to be one of the major headaches of programming. PHP arrays can simultaneously be considered and used as a straight array (indexed elements), dynamic (you can grow them or shrink them with ease), as dictionaries (aka associative arrays or maps of key/value pairs), as stacks (pop or push elements). They can contain hetrogenous types, and the searching and sorting functions available are comprehensive.

    For web services which do not need integration beyond the scope of interacting with Apache, a RDMS, SMTP, etc; PHP is a quick, dirty, simple and pretty powerful language.

    For web programming platforms that need to integrate in with other enterprise systems then, with all due respect, I believe the debate should be over JSP/J2EE and ASP/.NET

    Each to their own!
    Last edited by freakysid; Jul 2, 2001 at 21:09.

  10. #10
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    Just one point, VBS is evil. Sure it is "conversational" and it is easier to learn, but it is evil.

  11. #11
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Uhm...

    I hope to god you were joking about that.

    *slap* <-- you have just been "goob-smacked".
    Sean Killeen [LinkedIn] [Twitter] [Web]

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  12. #12
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    Greetings,

    Interesting Article, and will be informative once you've formatted it for the web and stuff. I apologise for the political comments below but I just can't help myself. I totally agree whatever does it for you ...

    1) Check out http://www.attrition.org/mirror/attrition/stats.html. Linux and Apache defacements are much lower than Windows IIS defacements. I know the hacking community, well at least a little, and why hack Linux when windows is so easy. I'm Sys Admin for both IIS/Windows and Apache/Linux and I know which one I have to reset every week ....

    2) I believe:
    PHP provides a faster and more cost effective solution to ASP. In terms of speed the major difference is that ASP is built on .COM architecture, which means when many functions require the creation of new .COM objects, creating an overhead that PHP doesn’t have. Also ASP is a proprietary technology that requires upgrades and requires many extra packages be purchased such as ASPEncrypt, Qmail and SA-FileUp for encryption, sending mail (with attachments etc) and file uploading. All this functions are built into PHP.

    Obviously I'm a baised open sourcer, but can I ask people out there was it legal for Microsoft to use a market share in one market (operating systems) to obtain a market share in another market (browsers). Hell no and that why they were found guilty in a court of law. WHat was done about it? Zip - Bush just rolled over and its business as usual at MS. IE holds 80% of the browser market, and no Microsoft are going to use that to roll over Java with their great new C Sharp. Do you MS have more power than your Government, probably. Is there anything we can do, not really but at least as developers we can promote Open Source technologies.

    That's just I how feel - Power the to People,

    Zitan.

  13. #13
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    Just my newbie 2cents worth . . . .

    These types of articles are good for people who want to get into server-side development but don't know which language to pursue.
    THAT'S exactly why I'm here in the first place. I know my site . . . I know where I want to take it (via database) . . . but have no clue what-so-ever what is going to be the easiest route for me to take. So, I am reading all this stuff I can find.

    Conclusions so far . . . I'm totally confused . . . *smile*

  14. #14
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Zitan
    2) I believe:
    PHP provides a faster and more cost effective solution to ASP. In terms of speed the major difference is that ASP is built on .COM architecture, which means when many functions require the creation of new .COM objects, creating an overhead that PHP doesn’t have. Also ASP is a proprietary technology that requires upgrades and requires many extra packages be purchased such as ASPEncrypt, Qmail and SA-FileUp for encryption, sending mail (with attachments etc) and file uploading. All this functions are built into PHP.

    Obviously I'm a baised open sourcer, but can I ask people out there was it legal for Microsoft to use a market share in one market (operating systems) to obtain a market share in another market (browsers). Hell no and that why they were found guilty in a court of law. WHat was done about it? Zip - Bush just rolled over and its business as usual at MS. IE holds 80% of the browser market, and no Microsoft are going to use that to roll over Java with their great new C Sharp. Do you MS have more power than your Government, probably. Is there anything we can do, not really but at least as developers we can promote Open Source technologies.
    Zitan, you raise some interesting points. I believe, however, that you are misinformed.

    I know for a fact you can upload files and do e-mail in ASP without purchasing anything extra, because i've DONE it.

    About the hacking, you raise a definite point there, but if you have a competent sysop that's up on the latest bugs, you shouldn't have too great of a problem.

    My Predictions: C Sharp and the .NET architecture will fail, because I don't like them either.

    Just because you have a beef with microsoft doesnt' necessarily mean you have to have a beef with all their languages. I can understand your strong-willed open-source feelings. I have them in me, too. I just like ASP better, so I chose it. I'm still all for open-source.

    Also, about Microsoft being convicted: They just ruled a little while back, if I remember, that a judge was unfair and biased in the way he sentenced Microsoft, because he told the papers he disliked Bill Gates. It indicates a heavy bias and clouded judgement. Also, if Microsoft were to be broken up into smaller companies, each would just excel to even greater heights, and you'd eventually still see the death of everything else.

    Just a few thoughts.
    Sean Killeen [LinkedIn] [Twitter] [Web]

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  15. #15
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Average time for any network to be compromised, including Linux, after being connected to the internet? 6 hours.

    Perhaps NT is compromised in the first 4, perhaps linux in the first 8... However neither is more secure.

    http://project.honeypot.org is a very good site (if I got the url right).

    Again guys, thanx for the comments I'll be rewriting this again this week sometime (first articles are always hard, or so I hear).
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  16. #16
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    Hi goober,

    Thanks for your comments ....

    I know for a fact you can upload files and do e-mail in ASP without purchasing anything extra, because i've DONE it. About the hacking, you raise a definite point there, but if you have a competent sysop that's up on the latest bugs, you shouldn't have too great of a problem.
    Thanks for these points, I've used ASP but not heaps so its good to know where I go wrong. I thought you needed the CDONTS object in ASP to send mail, but is that COM object built it? Or do you just paste some code from the net? It is true about COM architecture though right? It slows ASP down, although an ASP developer would consider it advantage in a windows environment though as its the same idea as Java Beans? In terms of hacking Linux is more secure than Winsows in my opinion and experience because it was built as a multi-user system from the ground up... but that's a whole other argument and here the topic is ASP.

    So ASP is slower, is proprietary technology and may (just may) require extra packages to increase some functionality. On the other side ASP is part of an integrated system and COM objects are useful. So talk to me and I correct? Anybody else got some ideas to add?

    They just ruled a little while back, if I remember, that a judge was unfair and biased in the way he sentenced Microsoft, because he told the papers he disliked Bill Gates. It indicates a heavy bias and clouded judgement.
    Sorry Goober but let's not use the US Justice system as a benchmark. I'm not even going to say OJ, because that would be too easy. By law is it or is it not illegal to use a market share in one market to obtain a market share in another market? Come on now we all know MS is , and it was totally violating your own business laws. I think the worst that will happen out of your courts is a fine (and that's going to hurt Bill like hell - he'll have to pass on buying that next degree ) and then it will be business as usual. I guess it got some of you scratching your head ( ) but it isn't just MS they'll just they biggest bully in town all the other big companies do it to, its engrained in capitalist philosophy --- but that's another argument. So yes I have a beef with MS, they have no INTEGRETY in their business dealings and so yeah I boycott they're products. That's just a choice and I'm not saying I'm right I just saying hell that's how I feel.

    Power to the People.
    Zitan

  17. #17
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Zitan,

    Very well said. I have no choice to disagree with you, even if i wanted to (which I don't).

    Many of the points you mentioned I agree with.

    CDONTS, while being an extra component, comes with the default install for NT, I believe.

    That's all I have to add. THanks for bringing your oppinions to the forum!!
    Sean Killeen [LinkedIn] [Twitter] [Web]

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    Greetings Goober,

    Very well said. I have no choice to disagree with you, even if i wanted to (which I don't).
    It sounds like I've offended you ....

    I'm not trying to be arrogant at all, I've used ASP so little and it seems very similar to PHP in many ways. These were just things I've heard through the grapevine. I know I rant and rave about MS, but I can't help it so apologies for the strong opinions. I come to forums to make friends and share ideas, and very often get help so I'm not trying to piss anybody off -- just trying to get you a little fired up!

    So take care,
    Zitan

  19. #19
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    lol! perhaps i didn't smile enough.

    Zitan, you did just what you intended. I was neither offended nor P.O'd. I like a good discussion.

    Thanks for the friendly chatter!
    Sean Killeen [LinkedIn] [Twitter] [Web]

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  20. #20
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    *waits for goober to reply to his pm's*
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  21. #21
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    I'm moving, i'm moving....i only have two hands.
    Sean Killeen [LinkedIn] [Twitter] [Web]

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  22. #22
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Yeah, and we all know what one of them is being used for

    (petting his dog... what else were YOU thinking?!)
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  23. #23
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    Originally posted by studiococo
    (petting his dog... what else were YOU thinking?!)
    Is that a euphemism?

  24. #24
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    Originally posted by goober
    My Predictions: C Sharp and the .NET architecture will fail, because I don't like them either.

    Have you tried to develop anything with ASP.NET? I REALLY like ASP.NET. The server controls makes development much faster, and it makes it easier to seperate the content from the presentation. ASP.NET is much, much better than ASP 3.0.

    But IMO, nothing beats ColdFusion.

    regards,

    Vidar
    Vidar Langberget
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    www.templeoftech.com

  25. #25
    code addict Abstraction's Avatar
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    Anyone who gives themselves the title of 'web master' I tend to not take seriously. *shrug*


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