SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Results 1 to 21 of 21
  1. #1
    perfect = good enough peach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    -Netherlands-
    Posts
    1,384
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    rel=nofollow -overoptimizing?

    The nofollow attribute has been accepted by the major search engines, meaning that adding this attribute to your link tag will prevent this link from passing (spilling) PageRank.

    This attribute was accepted with the purpose of decreasing the huge amount of blog-spam that was hurting the SERPS.

    I was wondering about your opinions on using the nofollow attribute for on-page optimization. You could use this attribute very easily to channel PR to certain pages and prevent it from leaking to other pages, thus increasing the PR of your important pages.

    The SE might see this as overoptimizing but really what I want is to keep some gibberish pages such as "Terms of Services" and "Add a link to domain.com" out of the SERPs. This would mean that both the SE's and me would benefit.

    Of course is the SE would disapprove of this you could turn the links into redirects and use your click counter as excuse, but that's not the focus of this thread.

    What do you think?

  2. #2
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    East Lansing, MI USA
    Posts
    12,939
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    There never was an over optimization penalty, thats a myth that grew up out of the "Florida" update.
    Chris Beasley - I publish content and ecommerce sites.
    Featured Article: Free Comprehensive SEO Guide
    My Guide to Building a Successful Website
    My Blog|My Webmaster Forums

  3. #3
    perfect = good enough peach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    -Netherlands-
    Posts
    1,384
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yeah but still, I wouldn't be tooo surprised if Google would put it in this list:

    Type(s) of problem (check all that apply):
    Hidden text or links
    Misleading or repeated words
    Page does not match Google's description
    Cloaked page
    Deceptive redirects
    Doorway pages
    Duplicate site or pages
    Other (specify)

    (from http://www.google.com/contact/spamreport.html )

  4. #4
    SitePoint Zealot Thermit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    158
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by aspen
    There never was an over optimization penalty, thats a myth that grew up out of the "Florida" update.
    While there may not be an "over optimization penalty", there certainly can be a price to paid for being too singular in your optimization. Many SEOs have found that a laser-beam tight optimization campaign isn't always a good idea, often optimizing for other terms (inbound anchors) can raise the rank of terms that were already optimized to the max, were ranking well, but not ranking appropriately now.

    Semantics aside, that sounds like OOP to me...

  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy someonewhois's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    6,364
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    For pages on your site, you should just use robots.txt. That way Google never gets to the page.

  6. #6
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Slave I
    Posts
    23,449
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by peach
    Yeah but still, I wouldn't be tooo surprised if Google would put it in this list:

    Type(s) of problem (check all that apply):
    Hidden text or links
    Misleading or repeated words
    Page does not match Google's description
    Cloaked page
    Deceptive redirects
    Doorway pages
    Duplicate site or pages
    Other (specify)

    (from http://www.google.com/contact/spamreport.html )
    There's a difference between optimizing and manipulating the system with trickery. Optimization usually involves enhancing a sites usability and accessibility and content (if you do it properly). Trickery benefits no one and only exists to achieve higher rankings.

  7. #7
    SitePoint Guru SimonMc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    The Office
    Posts
    616
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by stymiee
    Trickery benefits no one and only exists to achieve higher rankings.
    So trickery does benefit then. Because if you get higher rankings and you are the webmaster...then you benefit.

    The problem with this ethical vs unethical debate is that there is no such thing in SEO. SEO is about optimizing a website for the best possible rankings when you have taken all the risks in to consideration. SEO is not a good against evil fight. It is just business. To be the best SEO you need to get the best results for your clients whilst understanding and managing the risks involved.

    That's it.

    Simon

  8. #8
    perfect = good enough peach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    -Netherlands-
    Posts
    1,384
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    But in the end, the Search Engines are the boss. If they are smart enough to keep up with us

    If google notices that SEO people take control of their results, taking down the relevancy of results they can take action, prolly resulting into a penalty for abusing the rel=nofollow attribute.

    I don't think this will happen though. It won't mess up SERs as obviously as doorway pages. Allthough using this attribute is similar to using 302 redirects. It some cases (can't remember wich site) google penalized a website for using the wrong redirects.

    But then again, if they would penalize a site for abusing link attributes it will probably not be my website but a larger more visible website, so I think the risk of using it would be minimal (but still a risk).

  9. #9
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Slave I
    Posts
    23,449
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by SimonMc
    So trickery does benefit then. Because if you get higher rankings and you are the webmaster...then you benefit.
    Until you are booted from the SERPs and lose the vast majority of your traffic.

    And your users will love the professionalism of the small text at the footer of every page, and your handicapped visitors will love the alt tags crammed with words that have absolutely no meaning to the image and make navigating your site impossible, and users who disable javascript and/or css will love the meaningless text they can view because you thought you were only fooling the search engines with those hidden divs, and your dial up users will appreciate the extra time it takes to download your pages because of the hidden crap you added that they can't see or use anyway....yep, everyone benefits.

    <opinion>
    If you need to use trickery to get good rankings you need to go back to school and learn how to build websites again. A site designed for maximum accessibilty and usuability with good original content will be search engine optimized right out of the box. If you need to then add tricks and gimicks then you've erred in your design and need to rethink it and start over.

    Search engine optimization is not the manipulating of the results by adding trciks and crap to yur website. It is using proper markup and design to help indicate the meaning of a web page. If you need to use tricks to get the meaning across to the search engines then you did a poor job of getting the meaning accross to your visitors.
    </opinion>

  10. #10
    perfect = good enough peach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    -Netherlands-
    Posts
    1,384
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Well thanks for sharing your webdesign philosophy here stymiee but I think you opinion is a little short-sighted.

    Most people make websites to make money. Search Engines drive traffic, I convert traffic into money.
    Of course I can make my website's markup very neat and standards compliant, I make sure it meets all the needs of screenreaders and loads fast on the 14.4k modem of my great grandfather.
    But then what do I have, just one of the 5000 websites that try to sell webdesign. One of the 2000+ websites that sell webdesign in my province, where does that get me? nowhere! I didn't get rank#1 just by building the prettiest and cleanest website, I did it by learning about how the search engines work and use it to my advantage.

    And I do not mean you have to SPAM the search engines, I play by the rules because I know that if I break the rules my competitor will report me ASAP.
    Also, I would never apply "trickery" that conflicts with accessiblity.

    I do not look at a way to get my rankings up and think "This would increase my traffic by 20%, but does it help convey a message to my users".

  11. #11
    SitePoint Guru SimonMc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    The Office
    Posts
    616
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by stymiee
    Until you are booted from the SERPs and lose the vast majority of your traffic.

    And your users will love the professionalism of the small text at the footer of every page, and your handicapped visitors will love the alt tags crammed with words that have absolutely no meaning to the image and make navigating your site impossible, and users who disable javascript and/or css will love the meaningless text they can view because you thought you were only fooling the search engines with those hidden divs, and your dial up users will appreciate the extra time it takes to download your pages because of the hidden crap you added that they can't see or use anyway....yep, everyone benefits.

    <opinion>
    If you need to use trickery to get good rankings you need to go back to school and learn how to build websites again. A site designed for maximum accessibilty and usuability with good original content will be search engine optimized right out of the box. If you need to then add tricks and gimicks then you've erred in your design and need to rethink it and start over.

    Search engine optimization is not the manipulating of the results by adding trciks and crap to yur website. It is using proper markup and design to help indicate the meaning of a web page. If you need to use tricks to get the meaning across to the search engines then you did a poor job of getting the meaning accross to your visitors.
    </opinion>
    You don't even understand what SEO is

    What you say about SEO is related to ...what. Jesus? Some kind of religion? I have no idea how your ideas and thoughts fit in to what SEO is.

    Simon

  12. #12
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    East Lansing, MI USA
    Posts
    12,939
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    This whole argument is rather pointless.

    People have been hiding links for years using other methods and no penalties have been issued. The fact that there is now a new, SE sponsored way, to do it doesn't mean that they've suddenly become aware of it. They've known about such practices for a long time and for a long time they've not done anything about them. There is no reason to think they'll start doing so now.

    And is this even wrong? The whole point of PageRank is that you're voting for a site by linking to it. Its your vote, isn't it your right to have that vote not count if you don't want it to?
    Chris Beasley - I publish content and ecommerce sites.
    Featured Article: Free Comprehensive SEO Guide
    My Guide to Building a Successful Website
    My Blog|My Webmaster Forums

  13. #13
    perfect = good enough peach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    -Netherlands-
    Posts
    1,384
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I agree with you Aspen, it is our vote. I'm just being careful.

    But this is a way to take control of the SER and thereby a threat to the search engines, because they want it to be all natural and semantical. The rel=nofollow was not meant for onpage optimization.
    Im just trying to get everyones thoughts on this topic

  14. #14
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy someonewhois's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    6,364
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yeah, but using rel="nofollow" for links that you approve is like going to rallies promoting John Kerry, and then not voting on election day. It doesn't really make sense. Nobody does that.

  15. #15
    perfect = good enough peach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    -Netherlands-
    Posts
    1,384
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by someonewhois
    Yeah, but using rel="nofollow" for links that you approve is like going to rallies promoting John Kerry, and then not voting on election day. It doesn't really make sense. Nobody does that.
    Im sure a lot of SEO's do it already.

  16. #16
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Slave I
    Posts
    23,449
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by SimonMc
    You don't even understand what SEO is

    What you say about SEO is related to ...what. Jesus? Some kind of religion? I have no idea how your ideas and thoughts fit in to what SEO is.

    Simon
    No comment. You live in your world; I'll live in mine.

  17. #17
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Slave I
    Posts
    23,449
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by peach
    Well thanks for sharing your webdesign philosophy here stymiee but I think you opinion is a little short-sighted.
    How is building a usable and accessible website with good content shortsighted?

  18. #18
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy someonewhois's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    6,364
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by peach
    Im sure a lot of SEO's do it already.
    That doesn't make it right. A lot of "SEOs" put text in hidden divs, as well.

  19. #19
    perfect = good enough peach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    -Netherlands-
    Posts
    1,384
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by stymiee
    How is building a usable and accessible website with good content shortsighted?
    Taking accessibility in consideration is not shortsighted, but it's also not ontopic.you were just missing the point . It's about what gets results in Search Engines. Thats why we are in the "Search Engine Optimization" forum.

  20. #20
    perfect = good enough peach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    -Netherlands-
    Posts
    1,384
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by someonewhois
    That doesn't make it right. A lot of "SEOs" put text in hidden divs, as well.
    Hiding text from users is explicitly forbidden by google though. Rel=nofollow is adopted by google.

    Using it for onpage optimisation sounds wrong, but isn't it true that I should be in charge selecting wich of my pages should rank higher than others.

    Or more importantly, does google allow us to do so. I have never heard of a site being penalized for channelling PR across their site in a sophisticated way.


    Wether you use complex linking schemes...



    or link attributes.

  21. #21
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    East Lansing, MI USA
    Posts
    12,939
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Just to show you all how old the topic of hiding links is...

    http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82447
    Chris Beasley - I publish content and ecommerce sites.
    Featured Article: Free Comprehensive SEO Guide
    My Guide to Building a Successful Website
    My Blog|My Webmaster Forums


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •