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  1. #76
    SitePoint Wizard
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    Quote Originally Posted by N_F_S
    a higher cut => higher eCPM, don't you think?
    not necessarly

  2. #77
    SitePoint Zealot Venix's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by RevenuePilot
    Venix in your post you made one big under calculation, you only took in to consideration the fact that more ad networks are coming out to the market, but how about websites? Do you know how many new sites and I am not talking about template sites but rather quality sites are coming out everyday? Do you also know that a lot of networks including burst, tribal, etc.. donít accept even half of quality sites which apply, personally here at RevenuePilot we have seen huge increase in applications from new publishers over the past year now it is at the point there we get hundredths of new applications per day, yes half of the sites donít stand up to our standards so they get rejected but many sites are good high quality sites! At this point everyday millions of people around the globe are thinking or starting new sites, and the process is only accelerating since its so easy to start a good websites compared to an ad network which requires much more expertise and much much more capital to start and manage. So while I do understand your point personally I think in the coming years we will see the opposite as more and more qualities sites will come out the network will become more and more selective with picking out sites and deciding with who they want to work, I know for a fact that number of high quality banner networks are not accepting a lot of good sites simply because they have huge inflow of new applications!
    Excelent post RevenuePilot : though I still stand by prediction, it will of course have an impact on how things play out. Most likely the answer is not totally black and white and many new scenarios can unfold and things can play a role that will be hard to predict today. Like new types of advertising, networks that are only for webmaster that sell their own ads and provide the banner software and click fraud system, paper work, billing, and take care of those details and can do this for the fraction of the cost compared to todays networks. How will MSN and Yahoo affect the market if they do like Google and accept any site. How much competition will Google give the more traditional networks like Burst and Fastclik in the next 5 years. I guess we will just have to bump this thread in 5 years and see

    Very good post and I am glad you brought this up

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venix
    But networks needs to sell ads at a competetive price so in the end they will have to also compete on the revenue share to publishers
    Google - and other big ones - is beginning to control content access (though they do not own that content but ownership doesn't matter it is the right of exploitation that does matter) with blogger, news, etc as well as ads networks, so ads competitors will disappear little by little and guess whom little guys are going to be pressured more and more. Tell me when in history it hasn't always done so . Online-commerce is not dominating over offline-commerce yet, but when it will do, I bet most opportunities will be gone for the little Joe publisher: if he still get 50% he would be lucky. Offline authors get 10% let's say on the net it would tend at term to 20% if online ads becomes monopolised by the big ones like offline commerce: I don't see why the net won't be monopolised at term.

  4. #79
    SitePoint Zealot Venix's Avatar
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    laura2005 : What you are describing is worst case scenario and if such an horrible thing were to happen internet is dead as we know it. Let's all pray that we will never see that day Webmasters can not be compared to offline writes I think, they have more in common with publisher companies as a whole, but they publish online instead. It is I who pay my writers, Google does not pay them if you see what I mean.

    One thing has become quite clear throughout this thread, and that is that where people stand on this issue or where they think we are headed very much reflects what type of sites they run. A blogger, a person who runs a one man hobby site, the cookie cutter crew, people who made their sites into a full time business and needs to pay out salary, we all have a different experience and are seeing things from very different angles. But I guess that is a good thing, it is how it should be.
    Last edited by Venix; May 16, 2005 at 03:27.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenmore
    not necessarly

    Ok, You are getting $1 ECPM with 50% share , let's rise it to 70% :

    $2/100 = 2 cents x 70 = $1,4 > $1

  6. #81
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    i do not look at it this way:

    if company A sells an ad for 1$ cpm : with 50% share you get $0.50 ECPM

    while company B sells an ad for $0.50 cpm : with 70% share you get $0.35 ECPM

  7. #82
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    ive already done the sums on page 1/2 - you are both correct, of course, if the same company gives you a higher cut, then you will get more money..but thats irrelevant. we are talking about a competing company coming along and going higher, as in kenmores post.

    theres been some talk about book authors..I dont see that as a good analogy. There is more effort going into distribution of a physical product, and the prices are higher. 10% of a $10 book is $1, that can be 100% of banner CPM..

    the market decides the cut that networks use. if they remain competitive, people will use them (doubleclick 2 years ago). if they arent competitive (doubleclick now - same cut rate, 46% to the publisher) people will move away from them.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by steb
    theres been some talk about book authors..I dont see that as a good analogy. There is more effort going into distribution of a physical product, and the prices are higher. 10% of a $10 book is $1, that can be 100% of banner CPM..
    there are ebooks now and the author doesn't perceive more .
    And I don't base my reasoning really on analogy but on global scheme of commerce: the producer of anything that it is food like the farmer or content for the author/publisher always tend to be the one who is pressured the most in the chain when the sector matures. The guys who do the distribution take no risk like the producer but it is them who have the most weight in the balance of power. I wish they wouldn't but that's reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by steb
    the market decides the cut that networks use. if they remain competitive, people will use them (doubleclick 2 years ago). if they arent competitive (doubleclick now - same cut rate, 46% to the publisher) people will move away from them.
    As long as there are many competitors notably small who are innovators yes but the trend of commerce is never towards more competitors but less competitors and big firms. The bigs of Internet are now established, they have entered Wall Street, they are now working for them and their "democratic" vision of Internet is now lost. They're going to absorb the smalls or just kill them. Of course like there are still farmers there will always little publishers but not as numerous as today and not any more the golden age. It's not pessimism it's logics.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venix
    laura2005 : What you are describing is worst case scenario and if such an horrible thing were to happen internet is dead as we know it. Let's all pray that we will never see that day Webmasters can not be compared to offline writes I think, they have more in common with publisher companies as a whole, but they publish online instead. It is I who pay my writers, Google does not pay them if you see what I mean.
    I pray with you

  10. #85
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    there are ebooks now and the author doesn't perceive more
    not as far as I know...ebook authors get 100% (well, after credit card processing fees)

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by steb
    not as far as I know...ebook authors get 100% (well, after credit card processing fees)
    I'm not talking about self publishing I'm talking about authors being published by the big editors. If you want your book to be recognised as a reference you cannot self publish. Why do authors on sitepoint need sitepoint to publish for example the cost of self-marketing is just impossible to cover . Sellers lead the world not technicians (and I'm technician not seller). Who control ads and distribution control the whole chain. That's why underdevelopped countries fabric at low price and developped countries resell with much higher price, and this schema iterate inside the box: the producer is more or less the servant of the seller which I regret I assure you.

  12. #87
    Non-Member foodbiz's Avatar
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    They are way too greedy!!! I pay over 2 dollars for some of my keywords.... 10K hits per day

  13. #88
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    Broaden your mind: the question is universal. Who is at the end of the chain is the one who will be pressured the most (in this case the author/small publisher) in the HIERARCHY and that is not specific to a sector see for example software discussion here:
    http://www.softwareceo.com/discussio...ware_sales.php

    "look at industry organization and how that affects the picture. In the bowling alley where you have a portfolio of vertical applications, you fight it out for market dominance. Afterwards, you end up getting organized into an industry heirarchy. That heirarchy dictates how much money you can make. The market leader takes 77% and each subsequent vendor takes 77% of the remaining after the larger vendors have taken their cut. This assumes execllent operations by each vendor. This means that by the fifth position, you really are not making that much money even in a $nB market."

    The guy above estimates that at maturity the leader takes 77% so 100% - 77% = 23% I did say 20% at term for the author/publisher I have somehow the same rough estimate.

  14. #89
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    if ad networks are too greedy it's an opportunity for a less greedy company do dominate/decimate... like google, or walmart in retail. it's the spartan business model, kill competitors by being less greedy. before google it was so much work, in my opinion.

  15. #90
    SitePoint Wizard OnlineGuide's Avatar
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    Google is one of the most greedy out there. I also see that Gorilla Nation takes 50% also. Wow.
    The Online Guide

  16. #91
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    My observation in advertisers( adservers)

    Quote Originally Posted by photoshopfreak
    Ad networks do take too much...

    This one says it pays out 70% i might try them http://casalemedia.com/Publishers/...

    Friends,

    I would like to quote some of my observations regarding advertisers

    Casalemedia :
    We are a new publishers of casalemedia. When I got the codes i found that they are not providing 468 x 60 banners. most sites has that ad size but with casalemedia they are not providing.

    So my advertising for them is now very little done for one page not for all pages.

    They give good amount than others but the less amount of ad types is not a good stuff with them.

    Rightsmedia:
    regarding rights media currently they have some problem in their ad codes. No image is coming whatsoever is the adsize.

    Tribal fusion:

    They give u 55 : 45 on publisher favour but the problem is they give money only for the non asian traffic. i don't know why this. Even in asia currently China and India is getting into E-Com, the growth rate of internet usage in these two are really booming. So if we have an asian website with traffic from asia we are loosers.

    Can any one tell me an advertiser who can pay for asian traffic aslo.

    Thank you
    incorporate : nevada corporation : BePenfriends- Only friendship : You need a prayer

  17. #92
    SitePoint Wizard OnlineGuide's Avatar
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    No first tier network pays for China traffic, to the best of my knowledge. A few second tier networks offer 100% traffic fill anywhere in the world. You should look into these networks. Though, no network will just accept all Asian traffic. You should that in mind as well.
    The Online Guide

  18. #93
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    What are you serious.. the entire planet is greedy!

  19. #94
    SitePoint Member waazzuup's Avatar
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    I agree that 50% is way too much.

    Currently I am looking into the possibility of starting my own online advertising business. I have many ideas that I think many advertising sites are missing out on.

    Right now I'm trying to find the right programmers/designers to potentially develop my site.

    I think the hardest part will be to secure advertisers and publishers in the beginning. If anyone has any ideas for me, shoot me a pm.

  20. #95
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    I agree 50% is a lot... but I have in the past week been trying to sell some adspace on my own, and it takes a lot of time! Time that I could be improving my site, so its kinda of worth it.

  21. #96
    Level 8 Chinese guy Archbob's Avatar
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    Yeah, but providing traffic is by far the hardest piece of the puzzle. Once I've had traffic for my sites, I've had numerous advertisers approach me.


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