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  1. #1
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    What is happening here? And can it be stopped?

    I am so weary of complaining about contests and I am sure the advisors and mods are weary of receiving my complaints.

    When I joined Site Point, you could enter a contest, submit an entry, and wait for the outcome. It appeared that all contests were fairly run and most contest holders treated the designers with the same respect they received.

    Sure, there was a flame or two that the mods quickly squelched, but there were no fan clubs operating within the threads and amateur and pro designers competed on an even plane. I don't believe that is true here any longer.

    Recently there has been a flood of "little extras" from both contest holders and designers that make contests just no fun anymore.

    For instance, today I saw this:

    http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/show...65&postcount=1

    A contest holder extends their contest so that their chosen designer has time to enter. What's up with that? A deadline is a deadline. If the contest holder knows who he wants a design from, why doesn't he contact that person prior to the contest and get some mock ups instead of wasting everyone else's time?

    There are threads where contest holders have pm'd certain designers to enter and then insultingly posted the names of their chosen "team". What are the rest of the members who would enter? Inspiration for the chosen few?
    http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/show...52&postcount=1

    Then there are the threads where outside the guidelines, contest holders commission designers to do their logos with no regard whatsoever for the people who take the time to enter their contest.
    http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/show...7&postcount=84

    In addition, there are a lot of threads where contest holders are just out and out rude in their "feedback" and the designers ... seeing that carrot hanging in front of their nose ... bite their lip and put up with it.

    It seems a lot of the veteran designers have defected to other places. I don't know that there are any easy solutions. In fact, I'm pretty sure the solutions aren't easy, but I hope ideas in this thread will at least offer some help.

    Maybe I'm seeing problems where there aren't any. I just don't know anymore.
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  2. #2
    Ranking in the $$$ tbase's Avatar
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    I am with you on all that Shy
    However I dont know exactly what we can do to make this better.

    *Deadlines are set at the time of posting (I smell vb hack)...And CANNOT changed unless a mod does so.

    *SitePoint Escrow System (ie SitePoint scrapes a small amount of the cash like PayPal)

    *Raise post limit before allowed to run contest ?


    *Trusted SitePoint Buyer/Seller Postbit Inons ?

    I am sure these have been mentioned before, but what the heck

    Thanks
    Tbase
    I want to BUY Google API Keys (Soap).
    PM me if you got one to sell.

  3. #3
    Hikari silver trophy artistsneverdie's Avatar
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    Thanks for the PM Linda.

    I've got to agree with you on many of those points. Seems as though I'm involved in a couple of those threads you've listed . The top thread you mentioned (syncro services), Will (contest holder) was actually waiting for my entry into that contest as I hadn't originally planned to enter it but he requested my presence. As far as I know I managed to get the entry in before the original deadline so there was no need to extend it until Friday.

    In my defence I only ever submit one entry to most contests now, if it doesn't win it doesn't win.

    I've got to agree that submitting the entries via PM isn't on. Especially from certain designers who I had respect for, and wouldn't have thought they would have entered in that way, despite the way in which they have undoubtably been treated badly in some contests. However, The Pulp petrol logo was just a joke. How the guy can still be allowed on Sitepoint at all is beyond me, this is one that surely should have been chased up ages ago by the moderators.

    In fact, seeing the outcome of the Studio works contest::
    http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/show...=260452&page=3

    and the way a number of other contests have turned out recently, and the increasing number of people that have no respect for other designers work, I among many others I've noticed recently, have decided to pull out of any further contests and won't be displaying any of my work on sitepoint for a while at best.

    Unfortunately I don't see any way around this apart from an escrow system such as designoutpost, which has been mentioned so many times before, but is clearly unusable due to the large amount of maintenance required by the mods.

    As a recent contest holder said to me, "It is crummy for every legitimate party when these things happen."

    *Apology to Peter (Malbar), he has indicated via PM to myself that he wasn't aware of any contest (for savefile) on the forum and didn't submit a entry via PM. He was apparantly asked to do the logos by the contest holder outside of Sitepoint without being told there was a contest running*
    Last edited by artistsneverdie; May 11, 2005 at 06:12.
    www.hikaridesign.com | Contemporary Design
    Won some awards here once upon a time...

  4. #4
    Ranking in the $$$ tbase's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by artistsneverdie
    In my defence I only ever submit one entry to most contests now, if it doesn't win it doesn't win.
    I do this alot too unless the contest holder really like what I have
    I want to BUY Google API Keys (Soap).
    PM me if you got one to sell.

  5. #5
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    I am getting really disenchanted with sitepoint lately. I spend time to come up a with concept only to be treated by some contest holders like I was a high school student. But I am told that I can't reply to their rudeness.

    Then some designers are allowed to break the rules of the game, only to be patted on the back as the second coming.

    There are also the trolls digging up old contests only to make two to three word replies. My mail box was filled with them yesterday.

    Yesterday was not a good day for the contest forum in my book.

    But one of my biggest complaints is that designers need to be treated with respect, even if they are newbies and their efforts aren't up to some standards. There is a way to give polite and constructive criticism and I am not seeing that happen here much lately.

  6. #6
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    Thanks for the PM Phacker.
    Actually I haven't been on this phorum for a week yet and I've already seen this kind of things going on... When I got registered I was afraid these jokes would happen, well now I know
    What concerns me most is the lack of constructive critics. i don't really mind being treated in a rough or rude way, as long as I can move on and learn something.
    To be honest, A week ago I didn't even know there were contest phorums so I've made a great discovery but I agree it's a shame when you can't trust people.

  7. #7
    SitePoint Enthusiast vertlime's Avatar
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    Since I joined the forum on regular basis, there were few threads with all good intentions like this one, unfortunatly it seems it got worst I really don't have a solution for this situation. It seems like there is a very big lack of respect overall on the forum.

    Contest like Logosurge, just to name this one, does not show any respect toward other designers. If the contest holder was looking for particular designer she could have sent the invitation via PM. On his side, the designer doesn't have to mention he received an invitation via PM, this is call respect toward others, so everyone feels they are on the same level. On my side, I did receive some PM for joining some contests, I did not mentioned it, because getting a PM for joining does not mean, I have more chance to win, as a matter of fact the invitation I got, I ended up not winning, so I think it's a good thing not to mention it so it won't discourage others to participate.

    The contest holder should give constructive critism on each entry. If the design is not in the reight direction, there is a way to tell it without being mean to someone's effort.

    What I would suggest to everybody is not to forget their conscience and think with respect. Unfortunatly, where there is money involved people tend to forget anything.

    BTW- sorry for my english, my french is wayyyyyy better

    Caroline
    Innovative Graphic Design Solutions
    www.magentismedia.com



  8. #8
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    One thing that has been brought to my attention thru pms, e-mails and msn messages from other designers is that often after the winner is declared, the contest holder withholds payment until a number of revisions have been done to the winning entry.

    This is my suggestion on how to handle this issue. When I win a contest (I do every now and then! ) I consider that the contest holder is then my client. I don't send work to new clients without at least 1/2 deposit. So I don't send the files until I have either received payment in full or get a deposit with the understanding of what revisions I need to do in order to receive the other half. This usually solves that problem. I make it clear to my client that I am happy to do revisions after payment has been made.

    Although it's off-topic to this thread, it is another issue that has come up so I thought I'd address it.

    BTW- Like artistsneverdie, I also owe Malbar an apology. He wasn't aware of the SaveFile contest. He was simply e-mailed by the contest holder and commissioned to do 2 logos. IMO he is not to blame for what happened to the contest.
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  9. #9
    SitePoint Enthusiast vertlime's Avatar
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    BTW- Like artistsneverdie, I also owe Malbar an apology. He wasn't aware of the SaveFile contest. He was simply e-mailed by the contest holder and commissioned to do 2 logos. IMO he is not to blame for what happened to the contest.
    Are you sure guys he wasn't aware? Personally, I don't know what to think.
    Innovative Graphic Design Solutions
    www.magentismedia.com



  10. #10
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vertlime
    Are you sure guys he wasn't aware? Personally, I don't know what to think.
    No, he didn't take a polygraph, but from other pms and emails, I think he is telling the truth.
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  11. #11
    SitePoint Enthusiast vertlime's Avatar
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    oki great then. I was really disapointed when I saw the outcome of the contest.
    Innovative Graphic Design Solutions
    www.magentismedia.com



  12. #12
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    I am not so sure about the Malbar thing he knows how to view the contests, he says he's a professional, so I am also not that sorry about him sending his files before he receives his pay. This has supposedly happenned to him in the past, for less money, but a professional would learn by his mistakes.

    I may do revisions before payment, but I don't send the source files until payment is received.

  13. #13
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phacker
    I am not so sure about the Malbar thing he knows how to view the contests, he says he's a professional, so I am also not that sorry about him sending his files before he receives his pay. This has supposedly happenned to him in the past, for less money, but a professional would learn by his mistakes.

    I may do revisions before payment, but I don't send the source files until payment is received.
    He says he didn't look at the contests and I think that no one can expect each of us to check to see if a client is running a contest each time they ask us to do a design. Whether he knew or didn't know is really moot. The problem was with the contest holder, not the designer, IMO.

    Since the whole thing about Malbar is OT, I really shouldn't have said anything here, but since I posted something in the contest thread which is closed, this was the only way I had to apologize for my post.
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  14. #14
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    I would have to see the correspondence between him and the contest holder before I believed anything. I personally can see the contest holder notifying him that he had a contest going on here and he hadn't found anything he liked to this point.

    But that's beside the point the contest holder went outside sitepoint to find other entries that's definitely outside the rules. The "great" Malbar will remain innocent this time.

  15. #15
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    I don't think it's "OT" I think it's very on topic. It's just another case of a few designers being held in higher regard than the rest. The rest of us act as shills and fluff to maybe show the clients the chosen few are the ones that actually are considered.

  16. #16
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    This thread was created to address the three issues in my initial post. Although I gave three examples, there are many more cases of each in other contests. I admit that I was wrong in posting it the way I did, since I firmly believe that the individual should not be singled out and taken to task. That's not our job. That's why SitePoint has mods and advisors.

    As I said earlier, maybe I am seeing a problem where none exists. From the lack of input about the real issues, I am thinking that's the case.

    1. However, to me the fan posts are as rude as some of those by the contest holders. IMO, for someone other than the contest holder to single out a particular design for whatever reason - positive or negative - is belittling to the other contestants who have also worked hard on their entries.

    2. Although it should be the privilege of contest holders to invite their favorite designers to their contest, I believe that it is rude and uncalled for to make a public announcement of who is "in" and who is "out".

    3. IMO both contestants who ask for extended deadlines and contest holders who extend their deadlines in hopes of getting more entries are just plain in the wrong. Too many times I have seen both types of posts and I believe it is totally unfair to those who gave up their time to meet initial time limits.

    4. Contest holders who accept or encourage entries out of the thread should be barred from holding any future contests (IMO). It's not up to me to say either way, but I don't believe they need to be banned from SitePoint - just banned from wasting anyone else's time in the contest forums. However, if someone e-mails me and requests a design, I send them a proposal and I do it. I am certainly not going to start scanning this contest forum or that of any other site to see if they are running a concurrent contest.

    Those are the topics I wanted addressed in this thread.
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  17. #17
    SitePoint Member bunnydojo's Avatar
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    (The part in bold is really the only part I'd bother reading )

    In regard to having a payment escrow service, I'd say that's unnecessary. A little trust can go a long way and, as long as you don't send the files before receiving money, you should be fine. Since these are company logos and such, anyone who is in fact cheated can always just annoy the contest holder elsewhere (i.e. if I get "robbed" on a logo for JoeTheSandwichMan.com I can go to his site and find an e-mail or phone or address and complain) - it's not always easy, but it's far from impossible.

    I'd usually be in favor of raising the post count before replying in a contest thread, but I think it depends more on the person than their experience. I came here (the contest forum) directly and, after looking around at a few threads, started trying my hand at contests from post 1. I didn't say "Your logo is the best ever" and I didn't say "Your logo is the worst," I just looked around, picked a few contests, and tried my best. For the same matter, I've seen people with one or two hundred posts come in and say "Hey, that's neat."

    (The main point I want to raise)
    Posts in threads of "nice job" to a certain designer should really be done away with. I've had the honor to garner a few in the recent past, and, to tell the truth, it's nice to see but seems awkward... if Phacker and Malbar (who I haven't seen recently, but you guys reminded me about him ) are in a contest and Malbar's more mainstream design gets 4 "awesome"s and Phacker's (likely just as good) more specialized design gets nothing, all that does is give Malbar a tiny ego boost while making Phacker feel bad (indirectly) and possibly swaying the holder's decision. On the other hand, I've received a very small percentage of "praise" by PM - probably about 4 or 5 messages total - and this presents a totally different story. He says he likes the design, I look at his work, I say "wow, that's a real compliment coming from you" (which has actually been sincere in each instance) and we have a quick chat and kind of become friends. Meanwhile, it doesn't affect the contest and nobody else feels bad from being ignored. It just seems like having a guideline about non-holder's posting cheers/jeers in regard to submissions within a thread is both useless and potentially harmful when it could be done, albeit with slightly more effort, through a PM instead...

    Of course I've already said this about 8 times by now, but since Shyflower invited me (I'm one of the elite group who got invited ) I figured I'd throw that in.

  18. #18
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunnydojo

    Of course I've already said this about 8 times by now, but since Shyflower invited me (I'm one of the elite group who got invited ) I figured I'd throw that in.
    You are SO naughty!

    The only reason I invited the "elite" group is because you can only pm 5 people at a time and you are all in my buddy list (aren't you special! ). Hopefully you all passed it on and they passed it on and everyone knows about this thread now.

    PS -- I really don't want to smash you!

    I did want to add that I agree about the escrow thing. SitePoint has said "no" and to me, that's that. If we are professionals, we should have the capabilities to collect money that is due us. That's why I posted what I did earlier. If you don't send the product before they pay... well then the product is still yours.
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  19. #19
    SitePoint Member jshibbly's Avatar
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    Yes I am with you in those concerns. What I specially don't like is the contest holder will make you believe that there is really a competition going on when they have their mind set on one designer (the chosen).

    Assuming the contest holder just wanted to see if someone can top the chosen designer's entry, maybe it would be best if they contact the designer first, let him work his entry and if they are almost satisfied with it but still wanted to see the others' entries ( "in case someone can make them change their mind") then that is the tiime they post the contest and MAKE SURE INFORM the others in their project brief that there is already an entry that they like but still wanted to see if others can do better. In this case those who will enter the contest are aware of what the REAL CHALLENGE is and is willing and prepared to spend time on the project.

  20. #20
    SitePoint Zealot tsion's Avatar
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    Thanks jshibbly...Great thread Linda.
    Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
    -- Jimi Hendrix
    No I don't
    -- W. Wisdom

  21. #21
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    Thank you js hibbly. Very nice idea and in a perfect world...
    Thank you, too ,tsion.
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  22. #22
    ********* Genius Mike's Avatar
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    SitePoint won't act as a 3rd party to any contests

    We are talking about maybe making a fee to start a contest, though. Just one of our ideas.

    Off Topic:

    Hope you have a nice wedding this weekend
    Mike
    It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me.

  23. #23
    Ranking in the $$$ tbase's Avatar
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    Prime Example Tonight

    http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/show...46#post1895246

    This crap needs to be stopped.

    I am so frustrated, I AM NOT ENTERING ANY MORE CONTEST..Until something is put in place to stop this crap

    Something that I do for fun quickly turns into big headache..

    **** that
    I want to BUY Google API Keys (Soap).
    PM me if you got one to sell.

  24. #24
    SitePoint Zealot tsion's Avatar
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    Well, I had decided to refrain from getting involved in these types of threads, but what the ****. I agree with most everything that has been said here, but I think there is one fact that no one usually brings up, and that's the MODS involvement. I mean, there's 6 mods assigned to the contest forum. Sarah, Rick, Ingoal, Nicky, petertdavis, Dan Morgan. Check thier post's. You'll see that a couple of them haven't posted anything in the contest forum since who knows when. Sarah is the only one that I can see that usually takes any kind of active role there. I've seen more involment from a few MODS that aren't in that list.
    I've been in these types of discussions with pretty much everyone here and where has it got us so far? We got a minimum prize increase. That's a step in the right direction, but it's just not enough.

    My point here is, that no matter what we say, we're still at the mercy of the MODS, and until they invoke these changes I keep hearing them talking about, and start taking a more active role in the contest forum, nothings gonna change.

    I'm probably out of line here, but what the **** someone's gotta say it.
    Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
    -- Jimi Hendrix
    No I don't
    -- W. Wisdom

  25. #25
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike
    SitePoint won't act as a 3rd party to any contests

    We are talking about maybe making a fee to start a contest, though. Just one of our ideas.

    Off Topic:

    Hope you have a nice wedding this weekend
    Thanks Mike
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown


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