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  1. #51
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwinweekly.com
    Hate to break it to you but if you build a unique site with good content. As long as people are interested they will link to it. I don’t understand why that so hard to believe...
    The belief that if you 'just add good content then people will link to you' is just not that simple - not for all websites. It's not a one size fits all type deal here people. The statement may hold true for websites that are informational based, such as blogs, or article websites, but it isn't so simply for sites trying to sell a niche product. No one really cares to link to a site selling POS software or natural area rugs. No matter how much content one adds, obtaining incoming links will be very slow at best.

  2. #52
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    when was last time any of you linked to a e-commerce site?

  3. #53
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferret77
    What if you just want to make money, and don't want to create an interesting site, you just want to sell stuff. A lot of my sites just sell stuff.
    Your products would be interesting to customers, wouldn't they? Wouldn't you offer lots of information on your products so customers can make informed and more frequent/confident purchases? Interesting doesn't have to mean "tons of articles" or an outlandish layout; it just has to be something that keeps visitors coming and gets the word out.

  4. #54
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia
    Your products would be interesting to customers, wouldn't they? Wouldn't you offer lots of information on your products so customers can make informed and more frequent/confident purchases? Interesting doesn't have to mean "tons of articles" or an outlandish layout; it just has to be something that keeps visitors coming and gets the word out.
    that's true, and I do well in the SE's when someone performs a search for POS software, but that doesn't mean they are going to link to me, they don't.

    put simple: good content != link

  5. #55
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgotha
    put simple: good content != link
    While true, does link == sales? It probably doesn't hurt, but for specific markets like yours I wonder how well it translates in reality.

  6. #56
    SitePoint Wizard ChrisRoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferret77
    ummm ... you have to deal with customers, you have choice weather or not you can actively find links for your site or hope that people give you links. I know which one makes more sense to me.



    What if you just want to make money, and don't want to create an interesting site, you just want to sell stuff. A lot of my sites just sell stuff.

    Have any of you acheived good rankings for competitive terms, by waiting for the world to link to you?

    I know it happens but has it happenend to anyone here? I'm not asking for examples, but how many people can honestly say they just built a great site and suddenly it got the links to rank for a competitive term?

    Most of us here know enough to do "all of the above" with our sites. You can't just create a site and hope people find it. But I think you missing the point... these kind of people don't have to worry about competitive terms. They get traffic through content so they are not worring about search engines so much. Then you have the other side, that use the content and place links in that content to point to the products they sell. This gives them an advantage in SE.

    Me personally, I don't worry about SE so much any more, at one point I used to but I find people do the work for me on my site. People just talk about it and link to it. Combine this with advertising and that’s all I need.... And because of this I’m on SE for for some terms, but no real competitive terms. This is only because my words are not competitive. Its not like my site sells website templates or hosting.
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  7. #57
    SitePoint Wizard ChrisRoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgotha
    The belief that if you 'just add good content then people will link to you' is just not that simple - not for all websites. It's not a one size fits all type deal here people. The statement may hold true for websites that are informational based, such as blogs, or article websites, but it isn't so simply for sites trying to sell a niche product. No one really cares to link to a site selling POS software or natural area rugs. No matter how much content one adds, obtaining incoming links will be very slow at best.
    Its not just about linking to you.... there is way more to it then that. Lets use your example.... If you sold POS software and you surrounded your site with articles on POS... You don't think people are going to find your site when searching for POS related items. Add to this... that when you use the term "POS Software" in your articles have it link to a page on your site that sells your POS software. You don't think this will help with SE’s?

    I have tons of articles on my site, not even full articles just parts of articles. I received over 10,000 visits the days leading up to Mothers Day, from one Mothers Day gift article. What if you sold mothers day products and you had that article??? Don't you think you would make some sales?
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  8. #58
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    I have tons of articles on my site, not even full articles just parts of articles. I received over 10,000 visits the days leading up to Mothers Day, from one Mothers Day gift article. What if you sold mothers day products and you had that article??? Don't you think you would make some sales?
    See what you are talking about is lots of content, I like lots of content too, I have some affialte sites with 100s of thousands of pages of content. I agree this can be effective way to get lots of traffic for lots of non-competitive terms.

    But having lots of content hasn't helped my sites rank for competitive terms.

    Me personally, I don't worry about SE so much any more, at one point I used to but I find people do the work for me on my site
    See pretty much 100% of my income comes from the search engines for a couple years now. My sites arn't my hobby and I don't have a job. So to me ranking for competitive terms is really important me.

    So when I hear people say things like "content is king" ... just go work on your content and everything will be great. It seems very misleading to me.

    When I first started optimizing sites, I listen to that advice. I spend tons of hours trying to add content to sites, information, photo galleries, extra pages of stuff. Trying to make the sites a interesting "resource" And for the most part it did nothing for my rankings, nobody linked to my sites, and they were failing.

    Once I stopped working on content and spent all my time on building links, trading links, buying links etc. Then I started getting rankings, and my sites started suceeding.

  9. #59
    SitePoint Wizard ChrisRoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferret77
    See what you are talking about is lots of content, I like lots of content too, I have some affialte sites with 100s of thousands of pages of content. I agree this can be effective way to get lots of traffic for
    This is one page.. one article that is indexed in Search Engines... and it was for two days. This could have been any site not just me and it was a simple example of how content can work with SE's.

    Quote Originally Posted by ferret77
    See pretty much 100% of my income comes from the search engines for a couple years now. My sites arn't my hobby and I don't have a job. So to me ranking for competitive terms is really important me.

    So when I hear people say things like "content is king" ... just go work on your content and everything will be great. It seems very misleading to me.

    When I first started optimizing sites, I listen to that advice. I spend tons of hours trying to add content to sites, information, photo galleries, extra pages of stuff. Trying to make the sites a interesting "resource" And for the most part it did nothing for my rankings, nobody linked to my sites, and they were failing.

    Once I stopped working on content and spent all my time on building links, trading links, buying links etc. Then I started getting rankings, and my sites started suceeding.
    See... things like Photo galleries, general information, and "Extra Pages" don't sound like content to me. They sound like someone trying to make a site larger just and adding fluff.

    Like I said before, you need to do it all... Content is just a tool as SEO is a tool to a successful website. I see personally content as a SEO tool more then anything.

    My SEO was SE friendly URL and link exchanges. Buying links and trading links will only get you so far as well... Can you give some example of your “competitive terms” and what buying links have done for you?
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  10. #60
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwinweekly.com
    Its not just about linking to you.... there is way more to it then that. Lets use your example.... If you sold POS software and you surrounded your site with articles on POS... You don't think people are going to find your site when searching for POS related items. Add to this... that when you use the term "POS Software" in your articles have it link to a page on your site that sells your POS software. You don't think this will help with SE’s?
    ok, you just changed your entire argument on me...

    You said, "Hate to break it to you but if you build a unique site with good content. As long as people are interested they will link to it. I don’t understand why that so hard to believe... "

    And I countered with the reason why this simple statement that people say all the time is just not true.



  11. #61
    SitePoint Wizard ChrisRoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgotha
    ok, you just changed your entire argument on me...

    You said, "Hate to break it to you but if you build a unique site with good content. As long as people are interested they will link to it. I don’t understand why that so hard to believe... "

    And I countered with the reason why this simple statement that people say all the time is just not true.


    Sorry I’m trying to make 30 different points... but I believe in this too... but the key thing there is a "Unique Site with Good Content”. People will link to a site that is unique and has good content.

    So...Your telling me content doesn't help with SE's?
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  12. #62
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwinweekly.com
    ...People will link to a site that is unique and has good content...
    yeah, like I said, informational sites this is true...not so with niche product sites, but hey believe whatever you want

    Quote Originally Posted by iwinweekly.com
    So...Your telling me content doesn't help with SE's?
    I never said that...But, I could have 50,000 pages of the best content there is and I will still get very little links from it.

  13. #63
    SitePoint Wizard ChrisRoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgotha
    yeah, like I said, informational sites this is true...not so with niche product sites, but hey believe whatever you want
    Right.. I agree with this. But that is where I mentioned the "All Mighty Link" is not everything. Then proceeded to explain how content could help a niche site. I have clients that do this all the time, so its very easy for me to believe. They surround there AWS stores or eCommerce stores with content related to the items they sell. So your telling me this won’t bring targeted traffic at that as well as help with SE’s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Golgotha
    never said that...But, I could have 50,000 pages of the best content there is and I will still get very little links from it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Golgotha
    And I countered with the reason why this simple statement that people say all the time is just not true.
    You said that my statment wasn't true...
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  14. #64
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    See... things like Photo galleries, general information, and "Extra Pages" don't sound like content to me. They sound like someone trying to make a site larger just and adding fluff.
    Well not I'm not really sure wher you draw the line between content and fluff

    My SEO was SE friendly URL and link exchanges. Buying links and trading links will only get you so far as well... Can you give some example of your “competitive terms” and what buying links have done for you?
    I'm not that into buying links either, but it seems more effective then hoping for people to link to your site.

    I have sites that rank for all kinds of terms, website design and loan terms, lots of vacation related and travel terms, electonics, antiques, etc.

    I have around 75 sites and and involved with maybe 20 more client sites.

  15. #65
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    I really don't need a lesson on SEO, I made my point, I think you heard me, I'm done here..

  16. #66
    SitePoint Wizard ChrisRoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgotha
    I really don't need a lesson on SEO, I made my point, I think you heard me, I'm done here..
    I don't think I was trying to give a lesson.... But I thought I made myself clear when I said "unique site and good content, and as long as people are interested". I never said add content and people will link to you. End...
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    Talking Good Content and SEO is not enough

    I have read with interest the whole conversation down to here, and I have not seen one comment about really getting your website running well. In my experience -- and I have been around the web since 1991 -- I have not seen a website with good content and propser SEO do more than just OK.

    The sites that do extremely well are more than owners and displayers of good content -- those who do well have exceptional content. We must not forget the lessons Seth Godin taught us with http://purplecow.com/. The eight P's of marketing are no longer enough to get noticed -- we now just have the one thing that will make people read a site, recommend a site and eventually causing a great crowd to tumble over a site -- and that is 'innovation'. You gotta be different.

    Just do something now. Have a look in Google, Search MSN, or Yahoo! Search and see how many other sites are offering something similar to your site? Now if you are number 35 out of 180 you are still not going to be really placed well in Google. You might get deep scanned by Google and you might get in Google, but you are only going to get a small number of people coming to you if you are not exceptional.

    Content matters of course -- it matters even more now than it ever did. And Good SEO is necessary -- but the good SEO is going to tell you a way to make your content exceptional!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ferret77
    See what you are talking about is lots of content, I like lots of content too, I have some affialte sites with 100s of thousands of pages of content. I agree this can be effective way to get lots of traffic for lots of non-competitive terms.

    But having lots of content hasn't helped my sites rank for competitive terms.



    See pretty much 100% of my income comes from the search engines for a couple years now. My sites arn't my hobby and I don't have a job. So to me ranking for competitive terms is really important me.

    So when I hear people say things like "content is king" ... just go work on your content and everything will be great. It seems very misleading to me.

    When I first started optimizing sites, I listen to that advice. I spend tons of hours trying to add content to sites, information, photo galleries, extra pages of stuff. Trying to make the sites a interesting "resource" And for the most part it did nothing for my rankings, nobody linked to my sites, and they were failing.

    Once I stopped working on content and spent all my time on building links, trading links, buying links etc. Then I started getting rankings, and my sites started suceeding.
    I have remarked that in any profession there is the "external myth" of "everything is fair and beautifull" and the "insiders truth" of hard facts and realities and I think what is said above is more close to the hard facts and realities of "insiders truth" .

    SEs want to promote the external myth of course which I don't do not believe personally.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferret77
    Once I stopped working on content and spent all my time on building links, trading links, buying links etc. Then I started getting rankings, and my sites started suceeding.
    So, it seems that you are saying that links are more important than the content of the site itself?

    This is contrary to everything I have heard. And it does not even make intuitive sense. If I have a lot of content on my site, the search engine has a lot more data and keywords that it can index. So, the more the content, the more likely that somebody will be searching for this relevant content.

    That is one of the reasons so many people have started using blogs. Blogs improve SE rankings because it is all content. And Google just loves that content.

    If it were not for content why would blogs rank so well in SE rankings?

  20. #70
    SitePoint Guru SimonMc's Avatar
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    Let's face it. There are those that BANG up site after site just to grab the Adwords money...and the affiliate money etc etc. Nothing wrong with them at all. Nothing at all wrong. Mostly this is content provided by a third party. To do well in this game you need content...which is different from the third party content....OR and this is the big point here...OR you need loads of links with good anchor text.

    Then there are the hobby sites. Call it passion. Loads of self built content ...loads of interest from other "hobbyists" ...I use the word hobbyist loosley..it means any subject where the "webmaster has a real passion"

    Then there are pure commercial sites. These site sell B2B and they sell a product or a service. B2B sites attaract B2B visitors. B2B visitors don't just link your site because they like your content. These are corporate types. You need good content as well as a good linking strategy to rank well for B2B. Content on it's own will NOT drive links. FULL STOP! Unless of course you are say Microsoft etc etc etc. These companies though don't even need the net. (OK take that with a pinch )

    Then...the last group is B2C. B2C is similar to B2B except you have more chance of people just linking to you. Let's face it though....most consumers ...B2C....do you think they have a website Pretty unlikely in the majority of instances. So how will these people link without a website. This has to be the hardest market. You can have content coming out your ears but if your visitors aint got there own web site you are stuffed. Wheres your content going to get you links in that instance.

    Anyway...enough from me on this. I know enough about SEO to know that those who think content alone is king are blowing big

    Simon

  21. #71
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    SEs want to promote the external myth of course which I don't do not believe personally.
    There are a lot of SEOs who kind of push bad ideas to either market themselves, or hamstring the competition.

    So, it seems that you are saying that links are more important than the content of the site itself?
    Yeah I know its werid and doesn't make sense. But I'm not in charge of the SE. Basically a machine can't really tell the difference between quality content and a bunch of crap. Keyword density is about as far as content is measured now. Although in the future maybe they will know how to do it more depth.

    If a search engine had to pick which of these 2 sentences are more relevent to a search of "Albany NY"

    "Albany NY is the the state capital and has a population of 100,000 people."

    "Albany NY, Albany , something something Albany , Albany NY"

    It would probably pick the second one

  22. #72
    SitePoint Wizard ChrisRoss's Avatar
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    I'm not even going to argue that one....

    Everyone thinks they have SEO figured out. Many people have old theories that are just outdated, others have things that only work with MSN and Yahoo. I'm personally always learning... I’m always trying new things and learning new things. No one is going to win this debate unless they back up what they are saying with examples and facts and thats not going to happen.
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  23. #73
    SitePoint Guru SimonMc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwinweekly.com
    I'm not even going to argue that one....

    Everyone thinks they have SEO figured out. Many people have old theories that are just outdated, others have things that only work with MSN and Yahoo. I'm personally always learning... I’m always trying new things and learning new things. No one is going to win this debate unless they back up what they are saying with examples and facts and thats not going to happen.
    Seeing as you peddle content ....it is in your own interest to think that

    Simon

  24. #74
    SitePoint Wizard ChrisRoss's Avatar
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    To think what? That everyone thinks they know SEO? That I’m always learning?

    The fact that I "peddle content" has nothing to do with it. I "peddle content" because I saw search engines changing, and got into the market because of SEO. I'm not the only one talking about content here... maybe the others are my content peddling affiliates? I call it how I see it, nothing more and nothing less... I'm not saying I'm right or wrong I'm just stating what "I" know and “I” have learned.
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  25. #75
    SitePoint Guru SimonMc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwinweekly.com
    I'm not saying I'm right or wrong I'm just stating what "I" know and “I” have learned.
    Good for you then. If you have learned you will know for a fact then that content on it's own is NOT king

    Light hearted by the way about peddling....no offence was meant.

    Simon


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