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  1. #26
    SitePoint Zealot howardroark`'s Avatar
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    i've heard of various sites losing their google ranking despite having a 12% upwards keyword density in their pages. google is getting smarter. having large relevant content is better than stuffing keywords in a 150-word article...

  2. #27
    SitePoint Enthusiast SheWritesCopy's Avatar
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    Combining Excellent layout, dynamic graphics and creative content makes a highly pleasureable experience for your reader.
    I agree with you Ferret77, this is why I stated there has to be a good balance for every part of the site. All parts need equal attention.
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  3. #28
    Drupaler bronze trophy greg.harvey's Avatar
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    I thought "Real content" was one of the tools of SEO!

  4. #29
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greg.harvey
    I thought "Real content" was one of the tools of SEO!
    Rep++

  5. #30
    SitePoint Addict Ronny's Avatar
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    Build your site for people. If you stick to the standards you should'nt have any problem with search engines. "Web Standards Solutions" by Dan Cederholm is a great read about that, I really liked it.

    The basic truth is that if you use <b> for main headings it will look bad for people (and especially disabled people, screen-readers users etc.) as well as for the search engines. Just stick to the standards and you would have to worry only about off-site optimization.
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  6. #31
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    how about optimized content?

    we've all seen crappy sites without any optimization or content receive high rankings and i'm sure we've all seen the exact opposite occur.

    a lot of what you need to do depends on the popularity of the keywords being targetted. if it's a competitive keyword, complete (meaning thorough), optimized content (not keyword stuffed) seems to do quite well, no matter how popular the keyword is.

    jmo(bservation)...

  7. #32
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferret77
    That would depend on what "trickery and deception" you are talking about.

    Most on the page stuff is geared towards giving the site a higher keyword denisity, while making the content still readable.
    I write content and ferret 77's statement is true for a lot of sites that are on the affiliate marketing band wagon. Unfortunately, though, as happened with the e-book bandwagon, the banner advertising bandwagon, and many other schemes, the music can stop abruptly.

    Instead of working towards keyword density, why not work towards readability for your visitors? Isn't that what the web's supposed to be about?

    If more sites focused on conversion instead of optimization, they maybe wouldn't have as high a page rank, but they would probably
    do the same amount or more business IMO.

    The main reason people access the Internet continues to be to get information. If your site isn't giving me what I came to get, I'm not going to click on a link of yours - affiliate or not. I think a lot of people react the same way to bogus info sites whether they be directories that clutter up search results or other dis-informational sites.

    For businesses to do business and stay in business on the web, they better show the customer that he or she is king (or queen!) and build their sites around content that is optimized for their target market and not some cyberspace robot.
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  8. #33
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Search engines will not find your great content unless you help them. When I strted my ESL site it was the second best free English learning resource available. I got aroun 10-20 visits a day through word of mouth.

    Now (2 years later) I'm getting 1,000 people a day. The content is still good, but it hasn't been updated in a year. The search engines don't care. All they know is that I ahve more incoming links now.

    Regarding on page SEO, it's only worthwhile for non-competitive keyword combos. My advice is to forget about it and focus on good content for humans and links for search engines.
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  9. #34
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    I would say it depends on how saturated the industry is. Just by having the content will work, but in other areas a little SEO trickery will have to be used.

  10. #35
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlayOn
    ..but in other areas a little SEO trickery will have to be used.
    If "trickery" is required then you've done a poor job of developing your site and should consider starting over.

  11. #36
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    If "trickery" is required then you've done a poor job of developing your site and should consider starting over.
    Why?

    and what is "trickery" anyway?

    There are usually creative ways to increase key word density without hiding text, most of the content based "spam" can be easily matched just by adding some key word rich content, such as a site map, or redundently linking you interior pages with key word links.

  12. #37
    SitePoint Enthusiast VeteranAndy's Avatar
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    content is king, it will always be king, optimization is the icing on the cake. Period
    Last edited by moospot; May 17, 2005 at 08:35.

  13. #38
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    such a powerful original view point, never heard anyone declare that before.

    Did you ever think that maybe content is king for people who are good at writing content, and perhaps other methods work better for other people.

  14. #39
    SitePoint Enthusiast VeteranAndy's Avatar
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    I feel that in the long run if you write for visitors and not for search engines you are going to get more unreciprocated links and that will conversly help you more in the serps. Of course its nice to have an eye for optimization aswell so you can tweek your content to do well..

    Both is best, but without content a website is nothing.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeenThere
    Well, regarding "trickery and deception", I notice a lot of people trying to do this which was the reasoning behind my original post. Why do people spend so much time trying to do this when that same effort could be put into building original content?

    Thanks.
    effort ? They don't want to do effort they want money that's why there are a bunch of people using content generators it makes me laugh when I read the rendered pages (example on stock-market here http://tinyurl.com/cbc6v) but indeed they are indexed well by SEs, It disgust me to build any true content

  16. #41
    Floridiot joebert's Avatar
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    That's like comparing crack to a house. awhile after you start messing with crack you're going to loose your house.

  17. #42
    SitePoint Guru SimonMc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VeteranAndy
    I feel that in the long run if you write for visitors and not for search engines you are going to get more unreciprocated links and that will conversly help you more in the serps. Of course its nice to have an eye for optimization aswell so you can tweek your content to do well..

    Both is best, but without content a website is nothing.
    The old diamond. Build it and they will come

    Sure. Good luck. How many people do you know that just build websites with good content....and people just start linking to it. These sites are few and far between. If the web was just about these sites.....there would be a very large echo

    Simon

  18. #43
    King of Paralysis by Analysis bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by laura2005
    effort ? They don't want to do effort they want money that's why there are a bunch of people using content generators it makes me laugh when I read the rendered pages (example on stock-market here tinyurl.com/cbc6v) but indeed they are indexed well by SEs, It disgust me to build any true content
    And adsense is delivering ads on oil-water seperators for all his "stock market" pages lol

    Sometimes bad things do happen to bad people

  19. #44
    Drupaler bronze trophy greg.harvey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonMc
    The old diamond. Build it and they will come

    Sure. Good luck. How many people do you know that just build websites with good content....and people just start linking to it. These sites are few and far between. If the web was just about these sites.....there would be a very large echo

    Simon
    That's actually a fair point, but surely you accept that good optimised content that has had an eye cast over it from an SEO perspective should fare reasonably well in Google, for example. I recently started the guitar site in my footer. So far it's only had 40 reviews posted, and gaining momentum is tricky, but with original content and a decent ammount of SEO thought given to the text it's already 5th place for electric guitar reviews on the MSN search. Google is proving tougher, but the PageRank is creeping up. Just need DMOZ to pull their fingers out and list me! And sooner or later it starts to snowball.

    So yes. Build it carefully and they WILL come. And on that point, there is a very large echo in Google already - has been for a long time. The trick is to target markets with little competition or where you've checked out the competition and they're all doing it badly!

  20. #45
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonMc
    The old diamond. Build it and they will come

    Sure. Good luck. How many people do you know that just build websites with good content....and people just start linking to it. These sites are few and far between. If the web was just about these sites.....there would be a very large echo
    It happens all the time. Look at blogs; that's all they are and they do phenomenally in search engines through word-of-link alone.

  21. #46
    SitePoint Wizard LeoWebDesign's Avatar
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    How you word the content is important, not just the amount. When you are talking about your subject you need to use specifc terminology, not vague references like it or that, or us or them. I know it sounds like common sense, but I see it time after time.

  22. #47
    SitePoint Addict
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    There are different out looks on content

    the idea of creating a great site and world will link to it, is a terrible business plan. Its is putting the sucess of the site in the hands of people you have no control over. Counting a bunch of strangers willingness to link your site makes no business sense. Its very risky at least in my opinion.

    It does happen, but I personally am out to make as much much profit as possible I am not trying to take risks. Viral marketing and creating content that people just link to is upper level marketing. Its the most difficult form of SEO and frankly most of you and myself don't have the talent to do it. I just do what has worked in the past.

    Then there is the lots of content way, were you create large amounts of relevent, content of varying quality. This could be lots of written pages, large database sites, affilate datafeeds etc

    This goes by the idea that if you have lots of content, people will wander in for lots of obscure oddball terms that are matched somewhere in the massive tomes of indexed content. This has worked for me in the past, but it has never really helped me get ranked for anything competitive.

  23. #48
    SitePoint Wizard ChrisRoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonMc
    The old diamond. Build it and they will come

    Sure. Good luck. How many people do you know that just build websites with good content....and people just start linking to it. These sites are few and far between. If the web was just about these sites.....there would be a very large echo

    Simon
    Hate to break it to you but if you build a unique site with good content. As long as people are interested they will link to it. I donít understand why that so hard to believe.... I would even say there are way more popular sites like this, then sites that just did SEO and got popular.
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  24. #49
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferret77
    the idea of creating a great site and world will link to it, is a terrible business plan. Its is putting the sucess of the site in the hands of people you have no control over. Counting a bunch of strangers willingness to link your site makes no business sense. Its very risky at least in my opinion.
    Of course a great site will bomb if nobody is interested in the content. You have to create a great and interesting site for word to get around the web. It's knowing which topics to write about that can be difficult here, because people can be fickle as you alluded to, but knowing what to write about comes to you with time and analysis of who you're trying to target.

    PS: The success of your business is always in the hands of people you have no control over. They're called customers. If counting on customers makes no business sense then I don't know how so many businesses are around today

  25. #50
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    ummm ... you have to deal with customers, you have choice weather or not you can actively find links for your site or hope that people give you links. I know which one makes more sense to me.

    You have to create a great and interesting site for word to get around the web.
    What if you just want to make money, and don't want to create an interesting site, you just want to sell stuff. A lot of my sites just sell stuff.

    Have any of you acheived good rankings for competitive terms, by waiting for the world to link to you?

    I know it happens but has it happenend to anyone here? I'm not asking for examples, but how many people can honestly say they just built a great site and suddenly it got the links to rank for a competitive term?


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