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View Poll Results: What do you think about both browsers?

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  • NN sux; IE rules

    12 52.17%
  • NN is ok; IE is better

    8 34.78%
  • NN and IE are equal

    2 8.70%
  • IE is ok; NN is better

    1 4.35%
  • IE sux; NN rules

    0 0%
Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1
    Former Staff Member silver trophy Adam P.'s Avatar
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    NN vs. IE: The Big (but quickly dropping) Duel

    I have read a lot of articles where the topic comes up that NN sux. Well, I agree. (I'm sure now you know I use IE). Designing for it is impossible, if you want to you have to use limited features, it's CRAZY! I think it makes our lives more difficult.

    I wanted to know what everyone else thinks.

    Which do you use?
    Do you like it?
    What don't you like?

    I read that only like 8% of net surfers use NN. I hope it goes extinct.
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  2. #2
    You talkin to me? Anarchos's Avatar
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    The only people who might like NN are linux people, and that's probably more mozilla. The thing is that MS is not a good company to control the single major internet browser, because if you control the only browser, you control the internet. Hopefully opera can step up and compete, but it's not looking good so far...

  3. #3
    SitePoint Wizard
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    So many debates about this, but I like them

    I don't use Netscape. I don't dislike it, though. As someone mentioned here, it seems as if most people who hate Netscape very much are lazy coders. Those who don't necessarily hate Netscape are better coders.

    Netscape conforms to standards a lot better than Internet Explorer does. That means you can be a lazy coder with IE. Sounds good? It isn't. If everyone coded lazy, the Internet would be a huge mess of sloppy code. Sloppy code is bad. As someone said before, if there weren't any real standards, where is the line between a professionally designed site and a poorly designed site? It takes hardly any skill to fire up FrontPage, create a page (which has poor code) and sell it. It takes more skill to have code that meets standards.

    Netscape does not suck. It is what a browser is supposed to be. It meets standards. It saddens me that Netscape is giving in.

    If Internet Explorer had 99% domination (meaning everything besides Linux, pretty much), the Internet would be full of lazily-coded pages. Even worse - could you imagine if Microsoft controled 99% of people's browsers? "Smart tags" are just one of the things I am not liking.

    I really hope Mozilla does good in the long run.

    Why do I use Internet Explorer? It's integrated into the OS more and I like that. That is no reason to call Netscape a bad browser - how is Netscape going to integrate itself into an OS it didn't make?

  4. #4
    SitePoint Wizard
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    I would like to add:

    I am not sure what reasons Netscape would be considered a better browser than IE. Internet Explorer is without a doubt superior. As Anachros said, only Linux people would say that Netscape is a better browser than IE.

    Also, I forgot to mention Opera. Opera is definately growing, and I hope it continues to do so. It's a good browser and deserves more users than it has.

  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard Aes's Avatar
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    Here's my (perhaps irrelevant) two cents:

    I suppose I'm biased towards Netscape (although not without my reasons). I suppose I first liked Netscape because back when I was a newbie it had a much better looking interface (e.g. toolbar) than Internet Explorer (come on, you cannot argue with that!); however, since then I've learned a few things, working with web sites and all and compliancy and functionality have become important. Netscape isn't as bad as most of you say it is. I'm using NN 4.77 right now because I prefer it over IE (plus IE is having some major problems on my system right now). I rarely have crashes, and it displays at a decent speed despite what you may hear. So perhaps Netscape isn't as fast, or stable (?) as IE, but right now it works for me -- and IE doesn't. That's what matters.
    Colin Anderson
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    sense enough to be lazy.

  6. #6
    SitePoint Guru
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    What works for you is what you're going to use. I hated giving up Netscape, because it was such a superior browser for so long. It wasn't just the toolbar. When Netscape first gained popularity there was no comparison at all between IE and NN. IE couldn't do anything. You needed Netscape to take advantage of the newer technologies at the time. I did give it up after I put Windows98 on my computer. After that, NN seemed to crash all the time. That's not necessarily Netscape's fault, but it made it hard to surf with.
    However - whether pages are coded sloppily or not is not the responsiblity of the people that make the browser. It is poor marketing to produce a strict browser. People like it when pages look better to them. You have to look at things from the point of view of the end user sometimes, not the industry of the designer. That's part of why IE won the wars. Having IE as part of the operating system is only part of the reason. Although as long as IE is even as good as other browsers, from a user's perspective, it'll be the most popular. It doesn't have to be better.
    But I certainly agree that having one corporation controlling all the browser technology is more than a little disturbing. It seems to me that it's a much larger threat to the individual consumer and to the internet as whole, as a monopolistic practice, than anything else MS has done so far. To tell you the truth, though, even if NN was still in contention, having it owned by AOL doesn't make me feel a lot better about things.
    As far as other browsers go...they're out there, but will enough people ever bother with them to make a difference?

  7. #7
    Victory shall be mine tubedogg's Avatar
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    Originally posted by psalzer
    It is poor marketing to produce a strict browser.
    This is the biggest bunch of bull I have ever heard. There is a standard for a reason, and while Netscape might not follow all of it, the parts that it does it follows strictly which is a lot more than I can say for IE.
    This is equivelant to saying that because people like Big Macs and super-size fries that McDonald's shouldn't provide nutrional information that would let them know they are eating 50 grams of fat.

    And just FYI, IE6 is about as strict as Netscape.
    Kevin

  8. #8
    You talkin to me? Anarchos's Avatar
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    Eh, I agree with psalzer. Imagine this: you're a typical user (no knowledge of HTML, CSS, standards, etc.) and you have a site that you go to twice a week. It works on IE, doesn't on NS. You're going to use IE. Now multiply this by 5,000,000 standards non-compliant sites and you'll understand why strict browsers don't get downloaded.

  9. #9
    Victory shall be mine tubedogg's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Anarchos
    Eh, I agree with psalzer. Imagine this: you're a typical user (no knowledge of HTML, CSS, standards, etc.) and you have a site that you go to twice a week. It works on IE, doesn't on NS. You're going to use IE. Now multiply this by 5,000,000 standards non-compliant sites and you'll understand why strict browsers don't get downloaded.
    This may be true but what did people do before IE (or another non-strict browser) was around? I think the underlying problem here is people are generally lazy and don't take the time to make sure their code is valid and have come to rely on IE displaying it regardless. From this aspect I think Netscape is the best browser ever made, if only because it forces people to code correctly.

    However this is not the reason Netscape fell from popularity, so I really don't agree with the corelation between the strictness of the browser and its' general popularity.
    Kevin

  10. #10
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Aidan Bahta
    As someone mentioned here, it seems as if most people who hate Netscape very much are lazy coders. Those who don't necessarily hate Netscape are better coders.
    Good point. I also believe that some of the more ambitious coders hate netscape. For instance, most of my work is quite simple in terms of the HTML used, and it is relatively easy to get it to show in both Netscape and IE.

    And FYI tubedogg, I also believe that marketing believes that ignorance is bliss. It would be a wise marketing strategy not to inform Macdonalds customers of the nutritional content of their meals. It is only the law that requires them to do so. If consumers were less concerned about their weight, more burgers would be sold.

    Unfortunately, that is why it is good marketing to produce a loose browser, and poorer marketing to produce a strict browser.

    No, it isn't the primary reason that Netscape is less popular. But it helps.

    All your points, tubedogg are valid. People are lazy, and there shouldn't be a need for loose compliance in browsers. The laziness does exist, though, and Microsoft are laughing all the way to the bank.
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  11. #11
    SitePoint Evangelist pip's Avatar
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    NN vs. IE

    My personal view to this is that without Netscape about, what fun would web authoring be? I don't like Netscape; in fact it's most probably the one thing that gets to me the most while designing web sites. My pages never tend to look the same as on IE, but this doesn't mean that Netscape shouldn't be there.

    For me it's a challenge to design a site in IE, and then make it work the same in Netscape. Lately it has been much easier to do this, since I've downloaded the public beta release of MS IE 6. By merely modifying the DOCTYPE tag, the browser changes to standards. I like to keep the browser on Standards, thus when I turn to Netscape to check my pages, it all works fine, and looks perfect. The only disadvantage about this is that you loose some of the pleasant features of IE when switching to standards.

    Last but not least, I feel that the way Netscape displays pages is absolutely crappy. Considering the way IE displays a page. This is beyond the term "Standards" and I'm sure that Netscape could make it look a little more fastidious.

    With this, I beg to differ from what I've read before from Aidan Bahta about sloppy and lazy code. I for one code using a plain text editor, and my code is kept clean and simple. It's not about what IE would allow and what Netscape won't. To me it's no longer about standards, since Microsoft has now released a browser with standards, and still my pages look better on IE than on Netscape.

  12. #12
    SitePoint Guru
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    It really doesn't have anything to do with sloppy code, necessarily. There are differences in the way that they display and what they support that have nothing to do with sloppiness or laziness on anyone's part. One thing I actually like NN and Opera for is the fact that they'll find mistakes and sometimes it's just easier to fix what they find than to catch every error in the code by eye. And I also enjoyed the challenge of getting pages to display the same, or almost the same, in both browsers. I'm not enjoying trying to get them to do that with CSS nearly as much, but I think that's because it's kind of frustrating spending time to learn to do the same things in a different way, when there's not enough time to learn entirely new things as it is.

    But what I meant about marketing was that not only was IE on Window desktops before version 4, but a lot of other internet access companies besides AOL used software to connect you to the internet back then and most of those packages came with a browser and still people downloaded Netscape. I remember getting up at 5 AM to do it, because with the sloooow connections back then it was hard to download almost anything. And lots of not particularly computer savvy people did it, too. Because at that time Netscape let them see more of the web, use more features and pages often looked better in Netscape. When that changed, Netscape began to sink like a stone in terms of popularity.

  13. #13
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I use IE, NN is not my browser.

    Figures of 8% are also deceptive (as I said in other threads like this) as they are based on teh question "which browser do you use) and allows for mutliple checkmarks. A better question would obviously be "What is your preferred or primary browser?" and you'd get a more legit answer because many designers use NS just to see how it looks.

    Another way to gauge real usage would be to ask large sites what % of traffic their sites get. Personally, teh sites I webmaster or do log analysis for get 15million hits a month and there is well below 1% of those from NS users and many of those I'm sure are people checking the site in NS to see how it will look (I get emails from these designers who call me amateur and short sighted for not spending another 15 hours on a 1% demographic.. Hell, we have more opera users than NS).
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  14. #14
    The Hiding One lynlimz's Avatar
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    Yeah. Hey,

    I use IE, but I also use Mozilla or Opera based on my moods. heez. But i never use Netscape 4 to surf.

    In fact, Opera's good..except for the horrible banner. grr (yeah..i know..go purchase it).

    tlaking about purchase...would anyone actually purchase a browser? if its a no, how will opera gain a significant advantage? bleh
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
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  15. #15
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    If a paid browser could justify the cost versus a free browser, yes.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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    Twitter: @jeremywright


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