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  1. #76
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    molona's Avatar
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    Well, I have to say that I do not consider myself a webmaster at all (or a webmistress, as I am a female). It is just so much to learn. I always feel that I know nothing.

  2. #77
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
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    Molona-

    That feeling never goes away Being a Web Developer/Designer/Etc. is a job that requires you to stay on the cutting edge. You may also be a perfectionist (as am I), which makes it all the harder to feel like you've really gotten any language or skills down pat.

  3. #78
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    greater student & faculty interest in newest tech

    I word for a private university in the US ... we ocassionally get workstudys and interns who are completing a bachelor's or master's in our Digital Media Studies course. All of them have been responsible, enthusiastic, reliable and creative. And all of them could build a basic CMS in ColdFusion, a simple database in mySQL or Access, or an engaging piece of Flash.

    None of them so far has been able to build a W3C valid, CSS design site.

    I think part of the explanation is that the majority of students consider themselves designers, and Flash is like chocolate to designers. Also, both faculty and students gravitate toward new tech, such as Rich Internet Apps in CF. Mastering CSS, accessibility, clean and valid code, and unobtrusive javascript isn't nearly as sexy for either group.

    It's "old" tech.

  4. #79
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    I think you have to learn HTML before you get into CSS. Back when I was in college (1999) all you could really do with CSS was control text and Netscape had its problems. But HTML is very much still part of the landscape and web designers should know it.

    It's like Bill Cosby's old joke about wanting to learn to play drums. He finally realized that you had to get your chops together playing quarter notes before you started filling around the drum kit. Same in scripting, learn the HTML mark-up, progress to CSS to control the HTML and then go from there.

    You need the foundation before you go on.

    The college where I teach (I don't actually teach the scripting courses) teaches XHTML web standards and then CSS.

  5. #80
    SitePoint Addict fesh's Avatar
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    here's the major problem with web teaching these days: the standard is that there are too many "standards."

    Because there is no one "right" way to do things out there, the colleges fear teaching it because they might be (and usually are) teaching the wrong thing. I know that here at my little university I am one of the best web programmers on campus...and I'm not even a computer science major.

    It's sad that computer science people have no idea about web development because web applications are, in my opinion, the wave of the future. It is really troubling to look a the future of the web with such apprehension because there is no one learning except us un-classically-trained learners.

    There's my rant.

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  6. #81
    SitePoint Enthusiast aherrera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musicbox
    you can learn graphics designing in a week and can improve your standard by visiting graphics community like http://www.shadowness.com .......etc where you can learn new techniques, however the web standard is upgrading day by day.
    I can't believe no one has picked up on this statement.

    I'm one of the (obviously) many web developers that learned to design/develop sites on her own. My background is in traditional graphic design, and I can assure you that you CANNOT learn graphic design in a week. And I don't say that because I went the "traditional" route and went to school for it. I'm willing to bet that the self-taught graphic designers (the good and brilliant ones) out there would agree. After all, a good designer never stops learning more and more about design.

    Over the past several years I've come to realize that not all "web designers" are designers, in the purest sense of the word. And not all "web developers" know how to "properly" code a site. For instance, I know a BRILLIANT web designer, but once I looked at the code on the sites he's done, it's AWFUL. Conversely, I've seen sites that are poorly designed but the code is beautiful.

    To some of you I may be stating the obvious, but graphic design is A LOT more than just learning new techniques in design programs or online communities. A lot more; and I don't mean to say that knowing those techniques is bad. But, there are basic principles of design that need to be understood - that's what separates the good designers from the wannabes.

  7. #82
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
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    I believe there is a definite line between developers and designers, but know that there are a few who are good at both. I can't see people learning any kind of graphic design in a week; it's just not feasible. Maybe a couple months to get a moderate grounding, but definitly not 7 days.

    Development is easier in the sense that it requires logic. Logic is tough to learn, true, but it follows strict rules and regulations to work. Once you learn logic, it's just up to the skill of the developer to use it in the manner that gets the results you need. Graphic design is not like that. It requires a human touch which as we all know, humans do not always use logic. It's a more creative approach that can be difficult for logically-minded people to use.

    Is one easier than the other? Not really. Is it tough to master one? Heck yeah! Both are a job unto themselves. Web Designers, Web Developers. Can people do both effectively? Of course; but WOW, those kinda people are far and few in between.

  8. #83
    SitePoint Member dsimk2002's Avatar
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    Cool

    I went to ITT Tech and they only touched on web standards and CSS. They basically taught basic HTML. I wish they did better than that. This is not true of all the schools in their system, but my instructor wasn't even a graphic designer or a web programmer. He was a computer programmer with more experience with C, C++ and Java. It was very disappointing. ITT Tech is known mostly for its Network Administration programs though. I am in the process of learning CSS and web standards on my own. After that I am going to learn database and ASP
    Last edited by dsimk2002; May 5, 2005 at 20:04. Reason: had more to say

  9. #84
    SitePoint Zealot LSW's Avatar
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    I had 3 months of C++ in my web programming course. never understood why, they never taught us how we would use C++ on a web site and to this day I do not think it is feasable. I can use Borland and write a program to change ü into ü, but how I would use C++on a web site is still beyond me. Always seemed like a wasted 3 months to me.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by dc dalton
    I was almost fired from my school several times for refusing to follow the course structure because they wanted us to teach html 3.2 and then 3 units later say "You know all that stuff we taught you before? Forget it"!
    Needless to say being the rebel I am I pulled a "Dead Poets Society" and told them to rip those pages out of the book! .... talk about being in the hotseat... I was in the directors office more than my problem students!

    So what I did was teach them basic CSS the first unit and then we got into the heavier stuff later on .... But If I HAD followed the course structure my students would have been just as bad.

    Now we were a college acredited school that lead to a BS degree ... pretty freaking sad!
    You know my professor told us the same thing! At the end of the semester she also told us that its rediculous to hand code anything and use the editors! Now, dont get me wrong I use editors and they do come in handy but its not a good thing to tell a group of students because we all said "Well what was all that work for!" Made the class seem meaningless and it is important to know how to hand code. Looking back its sad that they didnt talk to us about web standards and the stuffed we learned would have just landed us on "Web pages that suck". We used frames and horrible colors (this was last summer mind you) and the horrible animated graphics(and it was worse). I have to commend you for teaching your students stuff that they could actually USE outside of the class. I wish I had you for a professor in undergrad. I would have learned more.

  11. #86
    get into it! bigduke's Avatar
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    This might be kinda late on this thread but ... if you did college in India, you'd be surprised what the teachers know here ( ). They are fresh post-grads right out of the univ and into teaching. Even the seasoned ones might never have heard of something called a "web standard" let along teaching it. Besides the university didn't prescribe it in the syllabus and there was on "book" for it so we didn't learn it and we all passed college merrily and sucked up happily ever after.
    The end.
    Its turned into the wild west now, the web that is. Unless there's a dominating body that preaches these standards no one will ever teach it in institutions or even realize their importance. I realized it only recently myself. So if there were a college of "Web development" i'd be teaching there for sure

  12. #87
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    My college also had nothing but a basic HTML class that discussed frames and tables. When we presented our final websites it was mostly sites that consisted of "this is my car" and "check out a pic of my dog" when I presented my site http://www.321templates.com I was investigated for plagiarism...thats just a funny side note. It really bums me out that I am in my senior year, and I have learned nothing in my major, and in some cases taught my professors.

    I have been told that we are the last state school in MA that still teaches COBOL. My professor still uses overheads and book editions published in 1986. This in an industry where what is here today is gone tomorrow. He is using text from 19 years ago. I wish I could do something to change this before I leave at the end of next semester. Any ideas?

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by 321web
    My college also had nothing but a basic HTML class that discussed frames and tables. When we presented our final websites it was mostly sites that consisted of "this is my car" and "check out a pic of my dog" when I presented my site http://www.321templates.com I was investigated for plagiarism...thats just a funny side note. It really bums me out that I am in my senior year, and I have learned nothing in my major, and in some cases taught my professors.

    I have been told that we are the last state school in MA that still teaches COBOL. My professor still uses overheads and book editions published in 1986. This in an industry where what is here today is gone tomorrow. He is using text from 19 years ago. I wish I could do something to change this before I leave at the end of next semester. Any ideas?
    Like I said in a previous post, I just got my degree in MIS and one of my friends had gotten into it with an advisor because she had taken C++ instead of COBOL. They actually was going to make her take COBOL! Thier arguement was that C++ wasnt an approved language, but they eventually let her slide with C++ (which is a very useful language to know) I couldnt belive that!

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by 321web
    My college also had nothing but a basic HTML class that discussed frames and tables. When we presented our final websites it was mostly sites that consisted of "this is my car" and "check out a pic of my dog" when I presented my site http://www.321templates.com I was investigated for plagiarism...thats just a funny side note. It really bums me out that I am in my senior year, and I have learned nothing in my major, and in some cases taught my professors.

    I have been told that we are the last state school in MA that still teaches COBOL. My professor still uses overheads and book editions published in 1986. This in an industry where what is here today is gone tomorrow. He is using text from 19 years ago. I wish I could do something to change this before I leave at the end of next semester. Any ideas?
    P.S. 321web that is a very good site. Yeah, I can imagine they would try to accuse you of plagiarism because your site looks better then the ones in the textbook..lol. But seriously, its not joking matter. I know how you feel and what makes it even worse is school is not cheap at all and you leave knowing NOTHING. Dont get me wrong I enjoyed my working on my undergraduate degree for what it was worth, but I know how you feel a senior and feeling like you know nothing. But I can tell you this, its good that you are willing to learn outside of the classroom because in this field you have to go way beyond what the professors are teaching you. I remember this girl who was about to get her degree and couldnt put a border around a cell (yes MIS degree). I wish I could give you some ideas..because it is very frustrating all I can do is wish you luck (cause I know how it is!). Anyways much luck too you!

  15. #90
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    Web Standards taught for past 3 years

    One of my students sent me this posting and wanted me to share that our Interactive Media Design program at the Art Institute of Dallas has been teaching web standards for close to three years now. We begin with basic scripting classes emphasizing "hybrid" web design because there is so much tables out there we feel they have to know how to work with sites that are existing. But the emphasis is on well-formed code with XHTML, CSS, and accessibility issues. Our second level course focuses on developing mastery with CSS/XHTML with a brief introduction to XML and the use of weblogs and news aggregators. The current weblog for our class provides links to standards based developers and issues related to improving the designers scope of learning.
    We also have a third level advanced web course which is transitioning to the use of JavaScript and how it interacts with CSS to add to the interactivity of web interfaces. We experience the web design process as structure, presentation, and behavior, and teach it that way!
    We also have 3 flash oriented classes, and 2 director classes.
    Our college encourages instructors to keep current in their curriculum, and an advisory board of professionals keeps us aware of needs in the developer community.
    So, there is some hope that some students are encouraged to work with standards, and then some!

  16. #91
    get into it! bigduke's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by wayne_b
    But the emphasis is on well-formed code with XHTML, CSS, and accessibility issues. Our second level course focuses on developing mastery with CSS/XHTML with a brief introduction to XML and the use of weblogs and news aggregators
    Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't all those be classified as web "practices" and not web "standards". The first thing that comes to mind when thinking of web standards is the rules of usage and technical incorporations in the web information flow laid out by W3C and other standards bodies such as OASIS.

    To cite an example, use of xml for information flow is a web practice, having a well formed doc with proper validators is a standard.

  17. #92
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia
    I'm called "webmaster" at my job and I don't have a problem with it. It's a hell of a lot easier to remember than my real title (Web Marketing Developer, or WMD for short )
    Somebody in your HR department has a really twisted sense of humor

    Quote Originally Posted by wayne_b
    So, there is some hope that some students are encouraged to work with standards, and then some!
    As was mentioned, these sounded more like web practices (which is very important) than standards (e.g. W3C HTML4.01, XHTML and CSS). With that said, it is very good to hear there are some solid web development courses out there, too bad this wasn't available when I went to college. Oh wait the dot com boom hadn't even been born back then.
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  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by msjapan2005
    Like I said in a previous post, I just got my degree in MIS and one of my friends had gotten into it with an advisor because she had taken C++ instead of COBOL. They actually was going to make her take COBOL! Thier arguement was that C++ wasnt an approved language, but they eventually let her slide with C++ (which is a very useful language to know) I couldnt belive that!
    Actually, if your friend never programmed before, then COBOL is more appropriate than C++ to start coding. For new programmers, it is better to begin with something like FORTRAN, COBOL, or QBASIC.

    These languages are a very good choice for begginers for multiple reason. They are powerful, extremelly well structured (no VB is not as well strucutured by far), easier to learn that C++ (therefore it is easier to get good programming practices) and they are not OOP languages. (a huge advantage when you are learning)

    When they use this type of language, they are not teaching you only the code, they are teaching you how you should think, and how to avoid silly errors and the technics of debugging (the most important thing a programmer can do)

    If your friend had programmed before, then taking C++ might be better, depending on how much he knew, experience, etc.

    Ah, FORTRAN and COBOL are still being used in programs related with physics, and specific tasks of engineering. Do not think that because they are so old they are not powerful. They are simply not OOP languages whereas C++ can be. When you want to program difficult math stuff and calculations... You can't be FORTRAN. So, yep, they are useful.

  19. #94
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by molona
    When they use this type of language, they are not teaching you only the code, they are teaching you how you should think
    You say that in a thread titled "Colleges not teaching web standards?"??

    Your arguments sound like the same ones used when people say "teach people tables then CSS" when what happens in reality is they just "learn flash and dreamweaver" - my argument was going to be that they learn tables then never get onto CSS until much later (tables stunting their growth), but it looks like in the real world they see tables and think "this is BS, I'm going to learn something else," whether that is Flash or CSS. Best off teaching them something they can use in the first place. Which probably isn't COBOL.

    Obviously that assumes there are instructors who can teach quality Flash or CSS skills. That my not be the case unfortunately.

    Douglas
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  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigduke
    Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't all those be classified as web "practices" and not web "standards". The first thing that comes to mind when thinking of web standards is the rules of usage and technical incorporations in the web information flow laid out by W3C and other standards bodies such as OASIS.

    To cite an example, use of xml for information flow is a web practice, having a well formed doc with proper validators is a standard.
    I am not sure what you mean by web practices vs standards. What we teach is totally based on W3C standards, which of course currently include XHTML 1.0, CSS 2.1, the Web Accessibility Initiative (http://www.w3.org/WAI/), and XML (http://www.w3.org/XML/) which has made much of the current standards possible and is a major data format behind the expansion of the web to handle any type of data out there. What I mean by well-formed code is that we practice semantic use of tags and functions, or using tags for their intended purpose so that standards are validated. In our CSS class we require projects to be fully validated with XHTML 1.0 Strict, and CSS 2.1. When this is applied, the document meets web standards specifications (tables are only used for data structure and not layout, no deprecated tags, etc.).

  21. #96
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayne_b
    I am not sure what you mean by web practices vs standards. What we teach is totally based on W3C standards, which of course currently include XHTML 1.0, CSS 2.1, the Web Accessibility Initiative (http://www.w3.org/WAI/), and XML (http://www.w3.org/XML/) which has made much of the current standards possible and is a major data format behind the expansion of the web to handle any type of data out there. What I mean by well-formed code is that we practice semantic use of tags and functions, or using tags for their intended purpose so that standards are validated. In our CSS class we require projects to be fully validated with XHTML 1.0 Strict, and CSS 2.1. When this is applied, the document meets web standards specifications (tables are only used for data structure and not layout, no deprecated tags, etc.).

    That sounds like teaching W3C standards (or more accurately put specifications) to me. This is very refreshing. Think you could lobby your counterparts at other fine institutions to do the same?
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  22. #97
    #titanic {float:none} silver trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougBTX
    You say that in a thread titled "Colleges not teaching web standards?"??

    Your arguments sound like the same ones used when people say "teach people tables then CSS" when what happens in reality is they just "learn flash and dreamweaver" - my argument was going to be that they learn tables then never get onto CSS until much later (tables stunting their growth), but it looks like in the real world they see tables and think "this is BS, I'm going to learn something else," whether that is Flash or CSS. Best off teaching them something they can use in the first place. Which probably isn't COBOL.

    Obviously that assumes there are instructors who can teach quality Flash or CSS skills. That my not be the case unfortunately.

    Douglas
    Well... True, it does look like I am talking about something else.... but I was simply pointing out something someone else said.

    msjapan2005 commented that a friend of his/hers was studying a web designing/development course and that they tought COBOL in their programming course instead of more widely known/used languages like C++.

    I simply pointed out that, unless that friend was already a programmer, starting with C++ is more likely to be an error. No because he/she couldn't do it, programming in itself is abstract and the methodology is independent of which language you use, but because C++ is too hard for a begginer.

    Following your example, it is like if I start web designing with XML (including XSLT, XPath and XLink) instead with HTML and CSS. Can I be a good designer? Yes, sure, why not, but I will need to work much harder that if I start with the easy stuff and then, when I understand what I do and why I do it, move on to more complicated things.

    Another subject would be if that friend was not learning web standards, I really do not know what kind of web course that is.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayne_b
    I am not sure what you mean by web practices vs standards. What we teach is totally based on W3C standards, which of course currently include XHTML 1.0, CSS 2.1, the Web Accessibility Initiative (http://www.w3.org/WAI/), and XML (http://www.w3.org/XML/) which has made much of the current standards possible and is a major data format behind the expansion of the web to handle any type of data out there. What I mean by well-formed code is that we practice semantic use of tags and functions, or using tags for their intended purpose so that standards are validated. In our CSS class we require projects to be fully validated with XHTML 1.0 Strict, and CSS 2.1. When this is applied, the document meets web standards specifications (tables are only used for data structure and not layout, no deprecated tags, etc.).

    I am currently a multimedia & web design student about to graduate from the Art Institute of Dallas, and wayne_b is one my instructors. I think he's done an excellent job with structuring the courses, and has stressed web standards and semantics well enough that many of us both understand and practice it.
    It's sad to see that not many colleges, institutions, etc have not paid attention to this issue. As I browse through many design firms' websites and web designers sites, I find myself shaking my head too often, because either they aren't aware or don’t understand and care for it.
    But it is refreshing to know that there are some out there who strive to teach, and some like all of you who care to push and bring more light to issue.
    Hopefully people and colleges will listen.
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  24. #99
    SitePoint Wizard samsm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLB
    That sounds like teaching W3C standards (or more accurately put specifications) to me. This is very refreshing. Think you could lobby your counterparts at other fine institutions to do the same?
    Someone who is passionate on the topic could write an article ... "How to teach web publishing", something like that.
    Using your unpaid time to add free content to SitePoint Pty Ltd's portfolio?

  25. #100
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    I'm only 12 and have been programming since I was 11. So I don't have to think much about college.

    But I would hope that I could go to MIT and major in some robotics thing and also business.

    This way, when I start my business, I can use my business major to get it started. And since it will probably be mainly about programming, I would know how to do everything - but wouldn't ever need to present a programming major.

    Or, I could go a totally different path and enter the awesome field of robotics.

    But, honestly, I think web design is really only something you can teach yourself. That's mainly because everybody learns it so differently; and their are so many different techniques. Learning it yourself inspires creativity more, too; since you aren't just doing what a professor says. You do it how you leanred it.

    Of course, you should still loiter around at forums and take it all in. That's what I do, and I've learned a LOT. A ton more than any book or professor could teach you. Why? Because it's totally current.



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