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  1. #51
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottyc
    I must state that I've had this argument with teachers in the school - but in the end they say that they are only teaching what is on the syllabus, so meaybe the institutions are the wrong people to be getting at (especially high schools in the UK).
    This is the difference between a teacher and someone who is experienced and teaches.. Ive seen this too many times, where someone is teaching something they have little or no experience in so they are "just following the course layout" whether it is right or wrong. I have also seen (unfortunatley) some of these teachers actually learning what they are teaching the night before they teach it! IN something like IT that is just plain wrong!

  2. #52
    SitePoint Zealot thorbergdt's Avatar
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    I second most of these opinions, I went to a tech-school in 2000-2002 and not one of the teachers we had for any web design class had a clue. Now that I look back I wish we could have that money back.. They unfortunatley thought Frontpage was "THE THING TO USE"

  3. #53
    SitePoint Enthusiast Jackal_Dude's Avatar
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    I graduated from college in 2002. Luckily I had some instructors who kept up on current standards and also future ones. In 2000-2001 I was learning about XTHML, XML and CSS. ALthough my first HTML class was HTML 4.0, we were taught about future standards as well.

    We were even taught about using CSS for positioning.

    I know compared to many of the stories here, I was very fortunate. BUT... WHY FOR GOD'S SAKE DO WE HAVE SO MANY OF THESE STORIES WHEN ALL OF THE INFORMATION ON STANDARDS COMPLIENCE IS SOOOOOOO READILY AVAILABLE.

    I MEAN.... THERE'S A NEW BOOK ON CSS OR XML OR XHTML OUT EVERY OTHER WEEK!!!!

    AND WHO EVEN NEEDS A BOOK WHEN WE HAVE GREAT SITES LIKE SITEPOINT????

    CRAZY... AND VERY VERY SAD....

  4. #54
    SitePoint Wizard jag5311's Avatar
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    I don't think there is anything wrong with using DW as your coding program. I do and I consider my code good, but some of you are right, its not a program to necessarily START off in, let alone DESIGN VIEW .

    I would have to say getting students started in Notepad is probably correct. The whole thing I want to see if WHY things are coded the way they are, etc... Give the students some meat and potatoes.

  5. #55
    #titanic {float:none} silver trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottyc
    Hey - at least all those institutions you've mentioned aren't teaching web design using Microsoft Word - Save as web page technique.

    Scottyc

    :rlolf:

    Now seriously. Until 3 years ago I was working in an IT company where I did web design and many other things. I loved it because it was a small company and I got involved in every single project and I learnt so much!

    One of the things that I had to do from time to time was teaching. I was teaching IT professionals. I was teaching javascript to people that knew more that I did... and they still said that I was a good teacher!! What they didn't know was the amount of hours I put before the course so I could really tell them something new, something that they did not know already, make it interesting. And, believe me, that was really hard because, even if you look through the internet, there is loads of information but everything is the same, saying the same things. So it was hard to step ahead from them. And I had to create my own examples and try them first, so they would not backfire!

    With HTML and CSS was the same. I was a strong believer on handcoding. I am still am. It allows me to improve myself, to code better. But teaching that to other people. That was hard! Some people called themselves webmasters, but they did was to take a template and modify it with DW or Frontpage, or take a Javascript code from a free script website. They really didn't want to know about CSS, or HTML. They wanted to know what the software could do for them and that was it (do not even talk to them about standards, that was a little bit too much).

    Trying to get the message that even to modify a template you needed to know what you were doing was, sometimes, useless. After all, most of them came because the company paid for it and they were force to learn HTML for a specific task that they really did not want to do. But still...

  6. #56
    SitePoint Addict DM3Dan's Avatar
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    The sad thing, is I am 14, yet could most likely teach a higher quality course on CSS, HTML, and basic crap than most of the teachers you guys have told war stories about .

  7. #57
    SitePoint Evangelist sputza's Avatar
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    Arrow learn it yourself :D

    I'm going into my 3rd semester of Digital and Interactive Media Design at NAIT here in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.

    Prior to going into the program, I had several years of web development experience and knew 2 programming languages. The entry into my course seems pretty hard at first glance. Prospective students are required to complete a career investigation, have a portfolio of previous works, be a “student for a day” and be interviewed by the program head. If all goes well the student is accepted into the program and has to pay a huge tuition for the 3 semester accelerated program. Like I said, it seems hard to get in, however my class has many people in it that if I asked them why they would use CSS rather than inline styles, would not have a good answer. How do these people get into a class that they are not qualified to be in? Its because of the lower skilled students that some of the curriculum is ‘watered down”.

    This is what gets me… when we first started the class we were taught HTML rather than XHTML. I know that for the most part they are the same… but why teach something out-dated when there is something that has, for the most part, replaced it. Isn’t that like teaching med students that if a person gets an infection the limb must be amputated? As most of you know amputation is a last resort so it’s not a common practice.

    Validation isn’t even something of practice in this program. In my opinion validation of code is a must because there must be standards in place to help the progression of the internet and for browser compatibility.

    I understand that colleges and universities have many ‘hoops’ to jump through before they can update the curriculum however, teaching students old material is only robbing them of the education they are paying for.

    As many of you know, it’s hard enough to get up and go to school everyday. For advanced students or even the students who are always keeping on top of the work, staying motivated when the material is pretty dry or outdated is really hard.

    In conclusion, taking a class at a university or college is not the best way to learn the most up-to-date standards and techniques.
    Steven Watkins
    Chief Web Ninja
    Code Monkey Interactive
    lowgravity.ca

  8. #58
    SitePoint Guru
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    ive almost gotten fired for some very cool reasons....

    first because i used css. my [incompetent] boss said that using css made it so when she tried to format the fonts on teh page using her dreamweaver, it wouldn't do anything. i even showed her how to work styles in dreamweaver (the program she swore by...she didn't even kno HOW to code HTML by hand, which is all i ever did) but she still threatened me with my job if i continued to do it.

    then because i used php. we already had header and footers that were php, so wuts the harm in making a few of the body's with php. apparently a lot, and when i got into work i was told i hav 1 day to switch all of my hundreds of pages back to html so the rest of the web team can update them. apparently the problem was the rest of the people workin on the pages weren't able to update the pages, even though i CLEARLY marked and commented any variables at the top of the page.

    there is good news tho, that boss of mine was fired by a higher boss, as well as the rest of the web team, but me. I now use both css and php.

    this boss of mine had a degree in web design, and boasted HTML and DHTML skills in her resume, even though she knew neither and depened on dreamweaver to get everything she needed done.

  9. #59
    Google Engineer polvero's Avatar
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    My Personal Experience

    I've decided the most important thing to have when applying (or being sought after) for/by large corporate companies is a College Degree.

    My degree is in Spanish. But what it came down to is what I knew. I have a list of 15 books that I've read from cover to cover. We discuss them in interviews, we review code together...it's really the kicker.

    Some places that require a CSC degree seems quite much. If you wanted to go into web development, it seems a bit overkill to get a csc degree at my University from where I graduated. They have like, a javascript course, and a ASP course...and that's it!

    I never expected to reach the amount of knowledge I know from school.

  10. #60
    .::Pixel PIMP::. Andrew K's Avatar
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    I was chatting once to a girl who taught at Shillington College here in Sydney (private college) and she taught web design and multimedia.

    I'd maybe like to do that one day, so I asked her how many years experience that she had to get the job, her answer was no experience in the real world she has never had a job was hired straight out of college (same one) and had no idea about the "real world" of design.

    I then began quizzing her about multimedia, she informed me that she had only ever used flash for basic animation and taught straight out of a textbook and really new nothing other than what she taught.

    She was very pretty and I'm wondering if that had anything to do with her getting that position, i.e. pretty teacher gets more students in her class.

    What kind of education are these students going to get, when their lecturer dosen't know what their talking about!
    Video-Tutes.com
    Web & Graphic design video tutorials
    100% free video tutorials.

  11. #61
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    that's the main problem with techonology-based classes, the teachers cme straight out of school to teach kids who want to use those skills in the real world.

    i'm a graphic designer and only dabbled in web design for the first couple of years after college. but a lot of what i did and had to know in the workplace, i learned on my own. i was fortunate in that my husband worked for a web development agency and i picked up on the web development aspect of design. now, as a freelancer, i've had to learn css on my own again because there are no classess offered in local schools of that nature. and, if they did, i'd be wary of them anyway.

  12. #62
    SitePoint Zealot LSW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputza
    This is what gets me… when we first started the class we were taught HTML rather than XHTML. I know that for the most part they are the same… but why teach something out-dated when there is something that has, for the most part, replaced it.
    HTML has not and will not likely ever completely replace XHTML. HTML is HTML and XHTML is XML, two different uses.

    HTML 4.01 is the same ageas XHTML1.0. It is still a standard and is the most current version available.

    HTML can be and should be used for normal web sites. XHTML is XML and needed to include XML based languages like SVG or MathML. If you are not going to use a XML baed laguage then there is no reason to use XHTMl, that is what it is there for, that is the advatage to it.

    Such XML based languages are not well supported in todays browsers so the reasoning to use XHTML is not really there. Then there are the matters such as serving XHTML with the correct MIME Type.

    Teaching HTML is fine, they should just teach students to write Strict and not transitional HTML and to write it as closely to XHTML as possible, such as attributes with "" and small case tags and names.

    As for the later comments about teachers. I come from a family of them and my father always wanted me to be one. Teachers without a good knowledge are bad, butat the sae time between my Web Design training and my Web Programming training I had more than a few teachers who new the subject matter completely ..... but simly could not bring that knowledge to their students. Not everyone was born to teach, think about your school days, we all had a few teachers that were simply born teachers, it is in their blood. Many IT professionals/teachers are compotent but cannot carry that knoweldge over. My ASP teacher was like that, He was a whiz with ASP and VB, but he was a horrible teacher and was teaching using a language we had not learned. He simply failed to teach us anythnig.
    Thank You, Migwetth, Gunalche’esh, Ha’w'aa, Danke

    Kyle Lamson



  13. #63
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    I recently received my MIS degree. I took a web design class and we learned basic HTML and that was about it. All of the things that I learned about web designed I learned on my own (and still learning). Honestly, the subject is so broad I don’t think that it can be covered in one semester. I had a lot of people who were required to take the class that had no interest in it. HTML is simple to me but some of the other students really struggled with it. I think that offering more advanced classes would be a good idea. Taking a graphic design class is a great idea. As a matter of fact, I plan to take one myself.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal9k
    Quote Originally Posted by tntcheats
    he forced us to use <li> tags and <p> tags without the end tags.
    Oh, man, that's horrible.
    Not really. It's perfectly valid HTML4.01. There's quite a few tags that have implicit closures d(d|t), li, p, t(d|h(?:ead)|r), etc.
    It might look a little strange, but it can cut down on the bandwidth a bit. But I doubt that was an underlying reason for "forcing"

    Make a page and run it through W3C's validator if you don't believe me.

    Creating webpages since 1994 (member of HTML Writers Guild since inception)

  15. #65
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    I'm surprised to hear that alot of colleges everyone attends (or attended) here, teach you how to use editors.

    In my college noone taught us to use any editor except like Vi for Unix. They just recommended we get a text editor similar to Edit Pro.

    I think it's good to teach how to use editors. In my office I was required to know dreamweaver and to tell you the truth I can see now that it's a helpful tool. Powerful search and replace, good file managing. I don't care about any of the wyswyg stuff, Although it helps seeing the site in design view. Anyways, the bottom line is that you may be amazing in code but when you have projects flying all around you, then it comes down to how well you can use tools.

  16. #66
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    actually, i learned html not dreamweaver. i still use dreamweaver though because, as a graphic designer, i have to be able to see what i do as i do it. but, i never make changes in the "view" window. everything i add or change is done strictly in the html or css.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaka42
    ...i still use dreamweaver though because, as a graphic designer, i have to be able to see what i do as i do it.
    Due to the poor rendering that Dreamweaver has I don't use the Design view at all. Maybe my CSS is too advanced for it...

  18. #68
    SitePoint Zealot jrickards's Avatar
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    It does mess up with some things CSS but MX 2004 is not too bad. Perhaps the next version will be better.

  19. #69
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    Yeah the design view is like a badly designed browser. I'll only use it to quickly find elements in the code but not to see how it will actually look. That's what the preview button is for.

    But I noticed that if it looks good in the design view then it most likely will look good in all major browsers. (except relative/absolute positioned elements)

  20. #70
    SitePoint Zealot jrickards's Avatar
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    As a Windows user of DW MX 2004, I know the issues with CSS in DW Design view but it is my understanding that the Mac version of DWMX2K4 uses the Opera rendering engine in Design view. If so, then the Mac version may display CSS better than the Windows version.

  21. #71
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
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    IMO, it's sad that so many scholarly establishments still think that all there is to web design/development is HTML and Java. (Not javascript, just Java, the programming language)

    Begrudgingly, I have always hated the term "Webmaster". With the popularity of the net, and the seeming fact that anyone with 10MB of hosting space provided by their ISP, and a heavy-offset dropshadow laden 1/2 MB download per page website considers themselves a "professional webmaster"

    To me, due to this lack of school teaching the true fundamentals to what is a CAREER when done in a truly professional manner, we're constantly seeing even big-name corporations riddled with a website that breaks standards left and right.

    Much of the industry today doesn't even know what a good website is much less how it should behave and what it can do for their ROI. I think a good basic plan would be:

    Usaibility/Accessibility
    HTML
    CSS
    XML/XHTML
    Graphic Design I
    Flash Animation I
    Database Modeling I
    Server App Language I (ASP/CFM/PHP/etc)
    Graphic Design II
    Web based Business
    Flash Animation II
    Database Modeling II
    Server App Language II

    Compare that to "HTML and Visual Basic...now you're a webmaster", and you'll probably start to weed out true professionals from those who are just hobbyists.

  22. #72
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    i think it's the true professionals that hate the term "webmaster". hah, i was even called webmistress one time just because i'm female. hated that even more. but, i don't consider myself anywhere near the caliber of some developers, but i can design with the best of them.

    i like the list break down aaron, wonder if it will ever show up on the college/university curriculum for web design and development? my husband was so fed up with the lack of real world instruction at our school that he considered going back to school to get his master's in computer science, just so he could teach. the guy that was teaching it at that time only knew coldfusion so his web development experience was somewhat lacking in knowledge of other development tools. sad really. i think he's still teaching too.

  23. #73
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaka42
    i think it's the true professionals that hate the term "webmaster". hah, i was even called webmistress one time just because i'm female. hated that even more. but, i don't consider myself anywhere near the caliber of some developers, but i can design with the best of them.
    I'm called "webmaster" at my job and I don't have a problem with it. It's a hell of a lot easier to remember than my real title (Web Marketing Developer, or WMD for short )

  24. #74
    SitePoint Zealot LSW's Avatar
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    Chaka - maybe you should get a icon with leather and a whip ... be a real WebMistress! ROFL

    "WebMistress Chaka - You will enjoy my web site .... or else!" *grin*
    Thank You, Migwetth, Gunalche’esh, Ha’w'aa, Danke

    Kyle Lamson



  25. #75
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    hahha ... i like that


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