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  1. #26
    Life is strife TriGeminal's Avatar
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    Well, I'm not in that kind of colleges which study IT or related items, but I could depend on myselft using w3schools, tutorials in differenet websites
    so, as for me it doesn't matter, ur college will not give everything even if u r in medical college like me
    BTW, anyone has Problem based learning (PBL) in these colleges?
    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil ..
    .. is for good men to do nothing"
    Edmund Burke.

  2. #27
    Xbox why have you forsaken me? moospot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wineo
    I think that the lecturers and tutors don't want the students' sites beating their sites to the top of search engines!
    Now that's an interesting theory!

  3. #28
    SitePoint Guru DCS's Avatar
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    I think a lot of the problem is colleges are making instructors teach classes they aren't qualified to teach and are offering courses the schools themselves are not properly set up for because it's "the latest thing" or fashionable.

    A few years back I was taking some graphic design courses. The head of the computer graphics department was a CAD guy. He did not understand the simple fact that a graphic artist needed a monitor set to display true color "all you need is 256 colors, it's good enough for CAD, it's good enough for everything else". Needless to say I was kicked out of class several times for setting not just my monitor but everyone's in class to true color display. Finally after I had a little visit with the Dean and showed him how a photo appeared on a 256 color display compared to true color and the fact that I was paying good money for classes that were not up the level of what I was paying for every monitor in that school was set properly.

    Couple of other little goodies, was taking a video editing class, we finally got a machine that could do video capture the last day of classes. Took a class on 3D Studio Max, the instructor was learning it himself as class progressed!

  4. #29
    SitePoint Wizard HarryR's Avatar
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    the first language they're teaching us is Pascal. Ergh, Python would be nice instead.
    Yes but pascal in a comp. sci. class is acceptable because their aiming to teach you transferable skills (and just as most programming languages, the same basic principles, structures and ideals remain the same between the majority of high-level languages).

    I'm sure if I did a programming course I would pick up several things that I didn't know before (i'm fluent in PHP and PERL, with a very good ground in Java, C/C++ and similar languages).

    The problem is that although these courses give you basic or existing knowledge in web design, they aren't transferable unless you have enough self motivation to do the rest on your own (how many people have you seen on here that are completely professionally trained?).

  5. #30
    SitePoint Wizard Goof's Avatar
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    Here's the sad truth. No college art or comp sci dept is going to shell out the money for a full-time web person. And if people are really up to date on standards and the inner and outer workings of the web, they aren't going to take 35k/yr teaching at a university. The only good techincal info I got at the University of Pittsburgh in the Info Sci and Comp Sci departments was the stuff that had been around for a long time and had become foundational for current trends (i.e. programming data objects, object-oriented methods and models, assembly and computer architecture, etc.). I wasn't too thrilled with most of my tech classes there.

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    A slightly offbeat creative.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS
    I think a lot of the problem is colleges are making instructors teach classes they aren't qualified to teach and are offering courses the schools themselves are not properly set up for because it's "the latest thing" or fashionable.


    I did a very short module on Web Design in my course and i kept correcting my lecturer. She didnt really mind, she was only teaching from some sheets. I ended up talking for about 1/2 of the class on things like not using <font>, what a doctype is, the basic principle of <div> etc.

  7. #32
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    In my College they aren't that bad but I have to say that many students that take the web courses still don't get what Standards are about.

    In my intro to web programming we learned about XHTML, CSS some js (not DOM). For all projects the pages had to be 100% XHTML valid or we'd lose marks. We also had a big chapter on frames but those had to be XHTML validated as well.

    I can't remember anything about accessibility. It was a couple of years back and I skipped that course alot :P.

    And to prove that more teachers are into the XHTML scene, in my next web programming course which was with PERL, we also had to make sure our pages were XHTML valid..

    And then in my 5th semester courses (web services and EJBs) we touched on more standards like XML, DTD, Schemas, WDSL quite intensly.

    But things like separating style from content wasn't even mentioned. In-fact I didn't even come close to this idea until I started reading online.
    I think it's because my program is more into programming than design and css is a 2 min thing they teach you so at least you know it exists.

    It's sad to graduate and have a title like "web developer" and not know about these things. You're paying alot of money and spending lots of time in these classrooms you'd think that at least you'll walk out with some current knowledge. That's why it's important for any type of developer to read online articles, subscribe to newsletters and soforth to be up-to-date. Or else you'll be attending in an interview where the person who interviews you is really current with what's going on and you'll be falling behind. And when you thought the College had given you some knowledge, it's time to go back!

    I'm in co-op right now. To get this job an online portfolio was required. I wasn't gonna go all out, I just waited until I had some free time and I put something together just to show my projects and have my resume and a few paragraphs about me. I later learned that noone bothered creating a portfolio. Also I learned that the interviewer picked a couple of guys, and trust me I know that at least 20 would have applyied for the same job. It's a web dev job. And after I started I could see that no way someone in the same course as I could do any of this. Have to be 90% if not 100% comfortable with coding in HTML and CSS and spot inconsistancies between browsers. (not to mention the knowledge of photoshop, flash, macromedia, php,asp, sql that is also mandatory).

    It's good to blame the colleges but if you're any serious about being a web developer you'll have to burn oil on your own time. There's just no other way.

  8. #33
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    Wink some of us try..... honestly ;)

    well, this is an interesting post to say the least......

    I have been through some courses myself with mixed experiences and have learnt the web side of things by myself as well - as so many others.
    Doing freelance work, initially mainly flash based due to my irrational fear of scripting in any form - I found myself offered the chance to teach - which I am now doing part time and thoroughly enjoy

    With the rise of the web standards and CSS driven layouts I have taught standards compliant web design with CSS this school year for the first time, learning it all myself as I go along.
    I think it often is down to the teacher - assessment criteria are at times flexible enough to allow uptodate delivery of content. Certain teachers do become less enthusiastic over the years, especially if no longer working within the field themselves....other factors such as time to learn and practise are also a factor....

    My colleagues and I however do try to keep uptodate - learning all the time.
    Have a look at my resource site, set up to allow students access to the training material I use -
    http://graphiceyedea.info
    Last edited by eyedea; May 5, 2005 at 12:40.

  9. #34
    Web Design Addict
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    At the college I went to (Unless things have changed) all they teach you is Dreamweaver, Dreamweaver, Dreamweaver and some Fireworks for graphics. You learn to do dreamweaver rollovers, tables, etc... Nothing about standards, nothing about cross browser compatibility, nothing! That is why I'm now trying to make up ground, I didn't know there was such a thing as standards until about a year ago. I am getting there, but still very "green" on the subject compared to a lot of guys here at sitepoint.
    Deron Sizemore
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    My Sites: LogoGala | Golf Ledger (coming soon)
    Twitter: Deron Sizemore

  10. #35
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    I attend the Art Insitute in San Diego and am majoring in the Interactive Multimedia and Web Design. The teachers in the program are great and for the most part know their stuff, but the curriculum is definitely weak. The courses are up to date as they can be, but things are only touched upon.

    It is obvious that you have to spend your own time to keep updated with the industry. No curriculum can keep the pace with changes in the field because then students who took the courses a couple seasons earlier would be in a different curriculum from students taking the course later.

  11. #36
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy
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    It's kind of funny that I just saw this topic... I had a guy call me from a local community college here today and ask my advice. He was taking a course on web design and needed help with a problem with frames.

    And as he said, "I'm writing this in that HTML stuff, not one of those programs like Dreamweaver." LOL

    Anyway, he wanted me to fix a problem with his frames. I suggested he ask here at SitePoint, or look at the W3C documentation on frames to see where he may have a problem (didn't have it online where I could see it). He refused, he just wanted me to fix his problem. He didn't want to, nor did he have time to "look it up."

    I hope he's not going to try and be a professional web developer because he'll be looking up quite a lot of "stuff" whether he likes it or not. Geez, what's wrong with all these people??

    And back to this original topic, they were teaching him to design in FRAMES. Not even tables, FRAMES! Wow, can you believe that!!

  12. #37
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beley
    And as he said, "I'm writing this in that HTML stuff, not one of those programs like Dreamweaver." LOL
    Why is it that those who are most adamant about handcoding usually produce the worst code?
    Quote Originally Posted by beley
    Anyway, he wanted me to fix a problem with his frames. I suggested he ask here at SitePoint, or look at the W3C documentation on frames to see where he may have a problem (didn't have it online where I could see it). He refused, he just wanted me to fix his problem. He didn't want to, nor did he have time to "look it up."
    It happens waaaay too often. Even here you see the "I just need an answer because it's due tomorrow" threads every so often. I doubt that these people get very far in their careers unless they change their ways.

  13. #38
    Non-Member Waraas's Avatar
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    Do you learn a lot from college? IN the web design/programming field. Im attcnding college this fall.

  14. #39
    SitePoint Guru DCS's Avatar
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    I think also a lot of these courses (not all) are not geared to educating web designers as we use the phrase but in teaching someone how to "publish a document for the web" kind of like a typing class. many of these programs are geared for say secretarial work how is expected to put info on the company's in-house developed site. Many of the programs teach Front Page for god's sake!

  15. #40
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia
    The problem is that a lot of these schools teach only the tools and not the theory, especially the two-year schools. It's the equivalent of paying out tons of money to read good-tutorials.com (not bashing on lo0ol here at all, that's just how many schools treat their design curricula). Without a good foundation in theory there will always be something "not quite right" about your work anyway.
    THIS is exactly what my school was doing ... Flash, DW, Quark *shudder*, Photoshop etc etc .... NOW some of these there's not much to learn except HOW to use the IDE BUT they wanted us to teach html WITH Dreamweaver ... this is where I absolutely said NO. Came within seconds of being fired too! (GREAT screaming match with the director)

    To top it off most of my students looked at me funny when I told them they were going to learn HTML in notepad FIRST, and they were going to KNOW what it did and why AND they were going to learn CSS BEFORE I even allowed them to open DW..... (BTW, thats when one of them ratted me out!)

    What a LOT of people dont realize is that many of these schools have become nothing but BIG business, give as little as possible and charge top dollar for it .. its now all about the almighty dollar. Thats why I left the school I was teaching at.. I just couldnt have my name associated with the way they did things. Really a shame as this school was one of THE most prestigious schools in the eastern US for many many years. When I went there it was like the Marines... we had no less than 5 hours of homework each and every night, apps to build every weekend ... nonstop torture for 10 months but MAN did we know our stuff! Within 2 years of my graduation this other "dont teach - make money attitude" started and it just SUCKS.

    These new schools (and some old) have become nothing more than another way to make a buck... My son called today after his last final at College. The programming books he bought in JANUARY for $100 a clip had a buy back value of a dollar! Some kind of freaking scam...

    So sad that our kids education has become backseat to the good old profit margin!

  16. #41
    SitePoint Guru DCS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmptySky


    I did a very short module on Web Design in my course and i kept correcting my lecturer. She didnt really mind, she was only teaching from some sheets. I ended up talking for about 1/2 of the class on things like not using <font>, what a doctype is, the basic principle of <div> etc.
    Sky, similar situation for me, problem was I was paying to be there to learn, not being paid to teach. Needless to say I did not complete the program.

  17. #42
    SitePoint Enthusiast kaos's Avatar
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    University level comp sci program teaches algorthms, math, programming fundamentals, web design is not really a concern for them, maybe a extra optional course would do. However if it's a multimedia college, there's no excuse not to teach these things.

  18. #43
    l º 0 º l silver trophybronze trophy lo0ol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia
    It's the equivalent of paying out tons of money to read good-tutorials.com (not bashing on lo0ol here at all, that's just how many schools treat their design curricula).
    I would just like to go on record and state that I think this policy is the best policy in existance today.
    .
    Zach Holman
    good-tutorialsblogtwitterlast.fm

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by lo0ol
    I would just like to go on record and state that I think this policy is the best policy in existance today.

  20. #45
    SitePoint Zealot LSW's Avatar
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    I never even met my instructor really. After a ew years unemployment I got the unemployment office to send me to schoolad web design was the first one that accepted me so here I am today.

    The school responsible (now non-existant) taught us HTML in two days, prior to the 1 yr. class to help sort out who would participate. That was all we had, we never discussed HTML again.

    XHTML was never covered. ASP was taught to us by a Visual Basic programmer, but we never learned VB, so we never knew what was SPand what was VB, so we ignored him and he was tossed out eventually.

    We learned Python for 8 weeks as the "Hottest new language on the web" ...... since then I have seen few sites using it and no companies looking to hire Python people. I have never used it since. We learned JavaScript, we learned CSS in a whole two hour course. Accessibility was never covered, the web si visual and no blind people can surf of course...... even in my web programming course two years later, the teachers had no idea blind can surf.

    We spent a whopping 9 weeks learning AHTML, that was some self written language created by the school for some company they were in bed with who was supposed to hire us all direct out of school, but went bankrupt first.

    We learned Flash of course, but not why and when not to use it, we learned Freehand, Dreamweaver and Photoshop. Again I have never touched Freehand again, but partly because the teacher was so lousy no one learned anyhing.

    No standards, no PHP or Perl and back to my first comment about never having met my instructor: There is a well known German Refference for web and HTML called SelfHTML by a fellow named Stefan Munz - almost every time we had a question or a problem, we were told to look it up in SelfHTML.... so in fact Stefan taught me web design... and I do not even know who he is *grin*

    Alas we graduated the year two months after the "DotCom Crash" of 2000 when the market wasflooded with unemployed experianced designers...... of 25 students ony three are still involved with any form of web design and one is me.

    I am affraid I must agree with earlier statements, if you want to learn web developement correctly, you need to do it yourself. All I know I have learned from forums like this and those well known sites for standards, accessibility and CSS. chools just do not cut it.

    That said, if you want to have a real 9-5 job, you need that peice of paper from a school in my experiance. Catch 22
    Thank You, Migwetth, Gunalche’esh, Ha’w'aa, Danke

    Kyle Lamson



  21. #46
    SitePoint Enthusiast scottyc's Avatar
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    Hey - at least all those institutions you've mentioned aren't teaching web design using Microsoft Word - Save as web page technique.

    I must state that I've had this argument with teachers in the school - but in the end they say that they are only teaching what is on the syllabus, so meaybe the institutions are the wrong people to be getting at (especially high schools in the UK). Maybe the government should be telling them the RIGHT way to do things

    Scottyc

  22. #47
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    At a course i attended at a private school we did lern css and xhtml but the lecturer didnt really know it himself, and I had to tell him everything about the browserproblems with css and neccesary hacks. His reply was to ignore the problems and design for ie only since everybody used ie....he also used absolute positioning for all css positioning....

  23. #48
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy
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    On a similar note, the new CIW Foundations certification talks about CSS, XHTML, XML, standards compliance, usability and accessibility. They seem to really want to have a good certification. I think I'm going to go for the CIW Master Designer this month (3 tests). Who knows, might help putting some credentials up on the website and on the business card.

  24. #49
    SitePoint Addict KelliShaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deronsizemore
    At the college I went to (Unless things have changed) all they teach you is Dreamweaver, Dreamweaver, Dreamweaver and some Fireworks for graphics. You learn to do dreamweaver rollovers, tables, etc... Nothing about standards, nothing about cross browser compatibility, nothing! That is why I'm now trying to make up ground, I didn't know there was such a thing as standards until about a year ago. I am getting there, but still very "green" on the subject compared to a lot of guys here at sitepoint.
    Well, seeing as how we went to the same school......

    Which department did you take your classes in? Honestly, I think that's one of their problems. You can take a basic web design course in the IET department, the art department, the communications department, the business department, or the comp sci department, and they're all different.

    The folks over in the IET dept. are starting to get more into theory and solid coding practices, standards, accessability, etc. and don't really teach how to use a specific program. They're more interested in concepts, and it's then up to the students on how they want to put them to use. There are professors there that have the enthusiasm and desire to learn it so they can teach it to their students. I still think they have a ways to go, but they are making the push to do it. There are some really good people over in the IET dept. I like 'em a lot.

    The art department approaches it form a purely aesthetic prospective, with usability thrown in, but nto a lto of accessability, if that makes sense. If you go into their course looking to take nothing more than that out of it than that (learning good visual design) then you'll get a lot of good info that you can translate to other projects, but don't expect to learn anything about good coding practices.

  25. #50
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Where I attend school (Texas Tech University) the majority of technical classes and art classes teach some form of web standards. In my MIS classes we do not go over a lot of web stuff, we learn the backend code and how it ties in with the business side of things but we did cover web standards and CSS. The art students (Design Communications) get most of the web standards stuff. Since they are the future web designers the professors mostly cover CSS, XHTML, and compliance with the W3C.

    I've also talked to a few high school teachers in the local area and they are all teaching HTML and CSS. They have moved away from FrontPage and Dreamweaver and started teaching how to code in Notepad. Good for them!

    It's funny in class, you can pick out the people who know their stuff and those that are just trying to get through. Usually, with the ones who know what they are doing teach the professor something new. If it's a good professor they take it to heart and share it with the class.

    I have (well, it's almost over) a class where nothing but .NET for the web is taught. I have used .NET before but this professor used methods of programming and just overall bad teaching and it has resulted in most of the class hating .NET and never wanting to use it again. We had a project due last week and in the project we were given instruction by the professor, he would give us chunks of the application, well after testing them I soon found that they didn't even load correctly in Firefox (or any other browser but IE). To me that's just a waste. His response was "This is how you will be programming in the real world" and to that I said "No, that is not how I program in the real world. My application would work in all browsers." Granted, that was probably rude but this guy has corrupted, yes corrupted, 30+ students on the use of .NET.


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