SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 42 of 42
  1. #26
    Non-Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    5,748
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I see them working their way down, eating away at PHPs marketshare,
    This I think will have a limited impact on the PHP marketplace, for the reasons I gave a few posts back.

    I'm really seriously considering moving my main development platform to Java.
    Being a member of these forums for a while now, I know you have in the past been an advocate and battle hardened Dot Net developer, so moving to Java as an alternative development environment just goes and rearfirms my disregard for Dot Net, does it not?

  2. #27
    SitePoint Guru
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    841
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by lastcraft
    That leaves .NET in the middle? That PHP owns the lower rungs of the ladder must really be ruining Microsoft's day.
    I agree about the .NET is in the middle.

  3. #28
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,423
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Hi...

    Quote Originally Posted by M. Johansson
    Web Forms is MUCH nicer to work with than Struts
    Checkout Webworks (also SiteMesh and Velocity or plain JSP) for a slightly lighter solution. The problem with Java always seems to be setting up the thing efficiently (honestly, Oracle has got to be easier) and the amount of XML you end up writing. You seem to have more XML than actual Java code.

    And Java is embarrasingly verbose, so you really need an IDE.

    yours, Marcus
    Marcus Baker
    Testing: SimpleTest, Cgreen, Fakemail
    Other: Phemto dependency injector
    Books: PHP in Action, 97 things

  4. #29
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    I see them working their way down, eating away at PHPs marketshare,
    This I think will have a limited impact on the PHP marketplace, for the reasons I gave a few posts back.
    What reasons? I could only find this?

    At the end of the day though, Open Source does have a lot more going for it than a propertiety technology does, that's a fact.
    If that's your argument... I'm sorry, but that is just mumbo-jumbo. It is correct that Open Source has a lot going for it, and it will be even more huge than it is now, and it is a fantastic development model. However, to say that software X will be successful because it is Open Source and that software Y will fail because it is propietary is completely ridiculous. There is absolutely no statistical data supporting such claims - there are plenty of super-sucessful Open Source projects, and plenty of propietary projects that are also very succesful. In some cases, Open Source makes sense, in some cases not. It's not a bloody magic bullet.

    Microsoft has with ASP.NET 2.0 fixed almost all the biggest problems with the platform (XHTML, code verbosity, etc), and is now going to be selling a pretty ok edition of Visual Studio .NET, one of the most capable IDEs in the world, for $30. They will also be offering MSSQL 2005 Express for very little money. They are agressively targeting this towards PHP developers. Add to this that .NET will also be the development model used for Avalon, which blows Java, PHP-GTK, and pretty much everything thing else availiable with the exception of Mac OS X. How you seriously can think that .NET will have "limited impact" on PHPs market share during the coming four years, I'll never understand.

    Being a member of these forums for a while now, I know you have in the past been an advocate and battle hardened Dot Net developer, so moving to Java as an alternative development environment just goes and rearfirms my disregard for Dot Net, does it not?
    I'm moving because Windows is a horrible piece of crap, not because .NET is. :P

    No, .NET is a fantastic technology and it is definetly the strongest technology for web development out there, in my opinion. Your disregard for it has always been very unfounded, and I think it stems from the fact that you probably have done very little actual development with it. It's a very nice platform and technically superior to PHP in almost every way, especially with the upcoming 2.0 version. With the exception of running on non-windows operating systems, I don't even know of any feature PHP has that .NET doesn't, but I can list a barrage of stuff that .NET has that PHP can't even do.

    The reason I'm adding Java to my repertoire is simply that I'm going Apple for my next computer, since Windows sucks (as a desktop, mind you - Server 2003 is serving my sites very well). I would have switched long ago if it hadn't been for .NET.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  5. #30
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by lastcraft
    Checkout Webworks (also SiteMesh and Velocity or plain JSP) for a slightly lighter solution. The problem with Java always seems to be setting up the thing efficiently (honestly, Oracle has got to be easier) and the amount of XML you end up writing. You seem to have more XML than actual Java code.
    I'm kind of considering using Laszlo
    http://www.laszlosystems.com/lps/laszlo-in-ten-minutes/

    either that or plain flash. I'm godawfully tired of XHTML/CSS.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  6. #31
    SitePoint Guru
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    841
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I've been reading some of the what's new in .NET 2.0 documentation and I've been stunned at how candid they are about pointing out the flaws in 1.0. Of course, they claim that these flaws are fixed in 2.0. Still, Microsoft has left a trail of the dead bodies of its competitors who didn't take their 1.0 products seriously enough.

    If I had a .NET background and wanted to move to Java, I would take a serious look at Tapestry.

  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,672
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It's a very nice platform and technically superior to PHP in almost every way, especially with the upcoming 2.0 version.
    Well there is something that every programmer who codes in another language and lowers him/herself to pass judgement on PHP always says. Bloody boring.

    And even then you have fine PHP developers like Jeff and Marcus not only giving helpful comments but adding interesting perspective.
    Christopher

  8. #33
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Selkirk
    If I had a .NET background and wanted to move to Java, I would take a serious look at Tapestry.
    Thanks, but is there any kind of overview of how it works anywhere? Couldn't find it.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  9. #34
    SitePoint Guru
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    oz
    Posts
    819
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by arborint
    Well there is something that every programmer who codes in another language and lowers him/herself to pass judgement on PHP always says. Bloody boring.
    I'm one of those who moved to another language/platform.
    And I would love to go back to using php, but there are some major factors why it's not going to happen

    There are very limited jobs out there for PHP (and the jobs are often fixing the most horrific code i've had the misfortune to see), so career development is very limited. Companies use .Net and J2EE because they are popular (and more popular amongst professional developers which is a significan difference to php which is far more popular with hobbiests), but this also means it will be easier to fine employees to continue on their projects.
    On top of that, .Net is a frameworks whereas PHP is only a language, and while forcing venor lock, it does ensures that someone they hire will most likely already know the framework since that is the only framework available for it. This means almost no learning curve for the framework specific aspects.

    If those factors didn't exist, I would use Python/Qt for desktop apps, and php for web apps in a second, but the reality is that it won't happen unfortunantly.

    And as for "Bloody boring", your vision is just as blinkered and biased as post-php'ers just for the other side. It would be nice if you try be a little more objective and leave out the "anyone who has any issue with PHP can go shove it" attitude.

  10. #35
    SitePoint Addict mx2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    256
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by lazy_yogi

    And as for "Bloody boring", your vision is just as blinkered and biased as post-php'ers just for the other side. It would be nice if you try be a little more objective and leave out the "anyone who has any issue with PHP can go shove it" attitude.
    i find it amazing how people can judge another person's opinion with their own, because their holy than thou "unbiased" opinion is always the right one.


    quoting someone out of context buys you the same biased label.

    this is a post inside the php forum area, you can not expect to scream dot net and expect people jump up and follow lead or people not to find dot net things borring because they rather focus on what they are interested in.

    People are entitled to their preferences in both programming style and language choice

    besides .net is a framework, java is a language and so is php. so your comparing apples with oranges here.

    The market flipflops, what is hip today is gone tomorrow. There might be something in the works right now that will replace php and kill dot net. Php is a young language pushed by a community and its has done very well even though it has not been backed by a huge corporation with the size of sun or microsoft.

    some advantages that alot of people don't mention about php

    1)i don't have to recompile the code, i can change it as needed on the server if i wish or i can encode it, the choice is left to me.

    2) I don't have to worry about something not matching the assembly

    3) I don't have to clear out the local cache and delete all the dll's in the bin every so often to keep the ide and framework from spitting out random errors

    4) I am not tied to oop even when i seperate html from server code

    5) I don't have to worry about being stuck to a particular os / web server

    6) I am not stuck with one framework or have to wait long periods of time before issues are fixed within the framework

    7) there is alot of source code available if needed, most free or at least available upon payment. (try finding source for dot net classifieds that isn't a dating service or that you don't have to pay to host it on somone's server without paying an arm and leg in the process or being limited to one domain or server)

    as far as people not worrying about ms making a dent in php's marketshare. People are all about the bottom line, and bottom line is if they can pay less for hosting or find a way to do it themselves, or just pay less in general, they are going to go for it.

    Apache is still the prefered and most widely used webserver and until MS can run a solid version of the dot net framework on a unix or linux server using apache (and i don't include mono as being solid yet), and provide a free version of VS studio that keeps some decent features (they already provide a free version of sql which can hold 2 gigs, so thats a start), then phpers won't fear MS digging into the marketshare.

    Besides they let go of IE once they had won their little browser war, what would stop them from doing that with dot net?

    in alot of ways php is the best thing to happen to dot net and asp.

    Off Topic:

    a php framework that would be widely available might be better off written as an php extention in C in order to add constructs and what not for the frameworks, keyword, might
    Last edited by mx2k; May 3, 2005 at 10:47.

  11. #36
    Non-Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    5,748
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Php is a young language pushed by a community and its has done very well even though it has not been backed by a huge corporation with the size of sun or microsoft.
    Exactly, just like I had already said earlier,

    At the end of the day though, Open Source does have a lot more going for it than a propertiety technology does, that's a fact.
    But this was thrown out without much thought nor consideration as to just how effect that open source can actually be.

    On the point of a lack of support from the giants of the industry, this will change in time, just how long it'll take I wouldn't like to speculate though it has already begun I believe?

    Oracle and IBM are two early adaptee's, I'm sure Sun will have some involvement in the future as well, and the rest as they say, will follow?

    But of course, I'm just a PHP developer with little experience of todays business aye?

  12. #37
    SitePoint Zealot
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    199
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by M. Johansson
    I'm really seriously considering moving my main development platform to Java.
    Sure glad I made the move when I did. It was a humungous learning curve cramming Java plus servlets, jsp, jstl and the more important java technologies: Spring, Hibernate, Ibatis, Lucene, JUnit.

    Six months ago I was on the bleeding edge using the Spring framework, now almost every web developer at my current company is using it. I'm just one of the guys now Oh well, at least I'm finally forced to learn Oracle at this job. Good gawd, talk about a complicated beast. I've read and re-read chapters 1-6 of Tom Kyte's Expert One-on-One Oracle book and will be re-reading it many more times I'm sure

  13. #38
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    At the end of the day though, Open Source does have a lot more going for it than a propertiety technology does, that's a fact.
    But this was thrown out without much thought nor consideration as to just how effect that open source can actually be.
    Wow, that was a long and elaborate response to my post.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  14. #39
    Resident Java Hater
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Gerodieville Central, UK
    Posts
    446
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I agree with Marcus, there are places where .NET has not learnt. Sealed classes, is one, and why they have soem classes extending 5 or 6 times in places is mad. I think that may create some real issues in times ahead. You would have thought MS would have learnt from the critisism MFC has generated.

    However, I still perfer the idea of using .NET over Java. MS seems to be attacking the middle ground by learning by some of Java's mistakes, while having a good framework to work to. Again, as people suggest, they seem to be marketing for the middle of the road. There is a large explosion of .NET jobs, while Java seems to be slowing down. Java's advantage is more with the maturity factor, therefore meaning you have lots of mature frameworks to choose from. However, as a Language, I'm not sure how well suited it is.

    I'm suprised nothing has looked more at Objective C / Cocoa, as that is highly regarded by those who use it. a loosly typed Objective C system where you have categories (which would be much better than .NET's deeply nested inheritance) would have way more suited to web programming. Ruby seems to be the only real language in the web dev field that has realised this with it's modules system. It's a shame, and also some what ironic that the mainstream languages dont seem to always be the languages that best fit the job.

  15. #40
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiJaySung
    I'm suprised nothing has looked more at Objective C / Cocoa, as that is highly regarded by those who use it. a loosly typed Objective C system where you have categories (which would be much better than .NET's deeply nested inheritance) would have way more suited to web programming. Ruby seems to be the only real language in the web dev field that has realised this with it's modules system. It's a shame, and also some what ironic that the mainstream languages dont seem to always be the languages that best fit the job.

    yeah - I've heard VERY good things about Ruby, and Ruby on Rails seems to have gotten lots of people riled up about it. I'm kinda dead set on learning Java first, so I haven't delved too much into it, put it seems very sweet.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  16. #41
    SitePoint Guru
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    oz
    Posts
    819
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiJaySung
    It's a shame, and also some what ironic that the mainstream languages dont seem to always be the languages that best fit the job.
    Yes it is a shame. But not so ironic when you realise that popularity is often driven by marketing. It is the capitalistic way of our society that money is the goal, and providing a better product is only one of the elements needed, and not always the most important one as M$ has displayed.
    But the other side of the 'ideal language for the job' issue is that if every domain had their own language, it would be extrememly difficult for anyone to move between domains as they would have to learn a new language every time. So it's a double edged sword.

  17. #42
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Bath, UK
    Posts
    2,498
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Would that be a domain specific language (DSL) then? That'll be something Ruby is good at, this page describes Rails as a "DSL for ... web applications", noting that "Ruby is a good language for [the DSL] style of programming".

    Douglas
    Hello World


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •