Christianity/polygamy/divorce/etc.

**Michel V** · Jun 28, 2001 02:23

Originally posted by TWTCommish
As for the first: if that's ALL we do, then you're right, but introducing the concept of sin to some people who have not heard of such a concept is obviously a good thing.

Let's suppose you're left-handed and you're visiting some muslim country. There in a restaurant, people start looking at you bad just because you eat with the left-hand, which is impure. So you ask why people are staring at you like this, and the concept of the-left-hand-is-impure is introduced to you. Eventually you finish your meal with the right hand, but that's very difficult and lots of food go on the table, on your clothes, on the floor.
How would you behave when you're back in your country ? Of course you'd go back to eating with the left hand, since it's how you've always done.
So, you'd be a sinner, 24 hours a day. After all, the Quran is the word of God too.

z7 · Jun 28, 2001 02:29

CRAP - the koran is not the word of MY God.

Islam is an angry, hateful religion - heck it even says in one part of the koran that the more christian's you kill, the more chance you have of getting to heaven!

Just look at the way they behave in the middle east, with their 'days of rage' - ...yeah really insparational guys!

I am not getting into a debate on this coz I have lots to do today...

**Marina** · Jun 28, 2001 02:46

Does any of you, who disapprove of homosexuality, have any other reason for that than the Bible?

**Polymath** · Jun 28, 2001 02:50

Well, I estimate over 3/4 of a billion people think the Koran is the word of God.

**jamesbond** · Jun 28, 2001 02:51

CRAP - the koran is not the word of God.

Islam is a angry, hateful religion - heck it even says in one part of the koran that the more christian's you kill, the more chance you have of getting to heaven!

Just look at the way they behave in the middle east, with their 'days of rage' - ...yeah really insparational guys!

By this post you have just shown us all how insightful you really are...

z7 · Jun 28, 2001 02:52

Does any of you, who disapprove of homosexuality, have any other reason for that than the Bible?

It physically repluses me.
I have seen lots of same-sex people kissing and...eou

z7 · Jun 28, 2001 02:55

By this post you have just shown us all how insightful you really are...

Oh and intolerant as well - sticks and stones baby, sticks and stones...

I am no lilly-livered liberal fool - I'll state what a believe and if you don't like it then too bad...

z7 · Jun 28, 2001 03:19

Originally posted by Polymath
Well, I estimate over 3/4 of a billion people think the Koran is the word of God.

Well, may God have mercy on them...

**Michel V** · Jun 28, 2001 04:39

Originally posted by z7
CRAP - the koran is not the word of MY God.

Islam is an angry, hateful religion - heck it even says in one part of the koran that the more christian's you kill, the more chance you have of getting to heaven!

Have you read it actually ?
These are easy attacks, for someone whose religion killed people just because they didn't want to convert to it.

**jamesbond** · Jun 28, 2001 04:48

I see you edited your previous post:

CRAP - the koran is not the word of God.

into :

CRAP - the koran is not the word of MY God.

I'm glad you took the time to think over what you said.

Maybe next time it's wiser to think before you post a message like that, instead of doing the thinking afterwards.

**Jeremy W.** · Jun 28, 2001 04:54

shin ma, how sad that you get your history wrong so easily... The crusades were masked as religious "inlets" but the prime reason was simple: Greed. The ability to raid a whole region with not only the permission but the blessing of every kingdom along the way (so long as you gave some to that kingdom).

Sure, some priests went along, but they came back rich as well (even templars for those who care).

z7 · Jun 28, 2001 04:56

Have you read it actually ?

Nope, but there is a book about it.

Here we go again...

I don't have a 'religion' - I have a relationship with Christ.

I don't have to 'educate' myself about other 'religions' either because I know that I have found the truth.

You can 'What about...' all you want - it won't change my convictions.

I have seen the power of MY God at work - Deaf Hearing, Lame Walking, people healed of MS - heck, I saw I guy last night who witnessed people being healed of AIDS in Uganda!!!

MY God didn't write, or inspire anyone to write the Koran - I'll be so bold as to say it is more likely the work of the Devil.

(Mr Bond - when I talk about God, I tend to think about MY God rather than other religions 'Gods' - so forgive me for not taking time to think - I am actually very busy, and haven't got time to argue about this petty BS - I haven't heard any of your infinite wisdom here, just nit-picking.)

Oh, the crusades - yeah, The Knights Templar? - an early form of Free Masonary - nothing to do with the God of Abraham...

**Jeremy W.** · Jun 28, 2001 05:07

z7... I know... However many people have this "thing" for the templars and their holy order... They were just as murderous and conniving and "get rich quick" during the crusades as anyone.

Anyways, we're on teh same side, remember? (not there there really are any sides *L*)

z7 · Jun 28, 2001 05:10

I know - I wasn't arguing with you...

One of my ex's had a book about The Knights Templar - and it all sounded well dodgy.

**Jeremy W.** · Jun 28, 2001 05:18

VERY dodgy... It really depends which paths of history you believe... Either they are totally of God or totally of the devil (this path leads to the belief in the Illuminati and all kinds of wierd shyte)...

I took a vague look at both paths then decided it wasn't really worth it, it's hard to prove they really did exist at all anyways.

z7 · Jun 28, 2001 05:24

It's very easy to get distrated by this sort of stuff.

**jackiemcghee** · Jun 28, 2001 06:01

Originally posted by z7

Well, may God have mercy on them...

How incredibly patronising. How dare you.

**Fluffykins** · Jun 28, 2001 06:03

Too many times has religion been used as an excuse to force the will and beliefs of one group of people onto another or condemn the actions / beliefs / lifestyle of another person or group simply because they are different or believe differently.

So a few years ago I sat back and asked myself... why? what's the point of believing in any of it? Morals, tolerance and depth character are (IMHO) nothing to do with which religion you follow, they're nothing to do with your race, gender or anything else you were born to or believe in. They all come from inside, and whether you decide to live a wholesome and fruitful life as opposed to one of "sin" is completley up to, and controlled by you.

Regarding the comments made on homosexuality, it really does damage my faith in humanity that people who believe themselves close to any god can still be so closed minded, petty and quick to judge those different from themselves. If all you can see is the sex part you're missing out a huge, and I mean huge part of the lifestyle. Views of homosexuality are defined by the media, common urban misconceptions and classroom jokes made by, what I'd bluntly call closed minded fools. Have you ever considered that two gay people might actually have a relationship other than sexual? That they might genuinely love, honour and respect eachother? Why, just because someone is gay should they deny themselves the companianship, affection and love of a solid relationship just because the majority say it's wrong?

I've known people who were gay, got married and lived a life of misery because the people around them told them they were wrong. Their own mother disowned and left them out on the street with nothing. This being a mother who was a devout catholic. We took in the poor girl (a neighbour) and gave her a place to stay while she got back on her feet. I can tell you now it disgusted me that a mother's love for her child could be so conditional. She never spoke to her daughter after that, and as far as I know to this day, 3 years on they have had no contact. The girl now lives in Manchester, with her partner. They've been together 2 years and I've never seen her so happy. They have a gorgeous house, both have top notch jobs and are upstanding members of their community, working with local charities and hostels on a regular basis. How such a wonderful girl could have been treat like that by her own mother simply because one facet of her didn't comply with the norm shocks and disturbs me. Does your sexuality define who you are?

I've been following this thread for a while and couldn't stay out of it anymore. I believe that no-one, no god, no holy texts and no government or group has the right to tell anyone how they should or shouldn't live their own lives. I think if there is an all powerful being out there who created humanity and the world he'd (or she'd) want us to be happy and live our lives as we see fit, with tolerance for our fellow human beings as opposed to enforcing a set of rules and regulations that they'd laid down and effectively excluding anyone who didn't adhere to them.

I'm not having a go at anyone in particular here and I in no way want to criticise or disrespect the beliefs of anyone. I respect you all as human beings and believe that EVERYONE has the right to believe what they want with no fear of persecution or repremand. Unfortunatley as this thread seems to have demonstrated that in some cases, that doesn't hold true.

Go ahead, flame me to oblivion, I now rest my case and leave you to conclude this discussion as you see fit.

Ady

z7 · Jun 28, 2001 06:06

Originally posted by jackiemcghee
How incredibly patronising. How dare you.

God bless you!

**Technosailor** · Jun 28, 2001 06:14

whoa guys.....This has been a fun discussion, but it is turning away from discussion to bickering. I'm backing out of this conversation now. Do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you become like him yourself. It's been good, but I'm going back to the business of web design. Maybe if we can all have a discussion without tempers flaring then I can rejoin this thread or another at a later time. God bless!

Sketch

z7 · Jun 28, 2001 06:21

For the record...

I have never ACTUALLY persecuted anyone for being gay, bi or whatever - I've hung out with people like that, I accept them just like any other human being (or 'sinner').

Excuse the flaring temper but I don't appreciate being lumped in with Muslims or any other religion.
This is, or was a discussion/debate/pointless arguement about a Christian belief afterall hence the title...

**TWTCommish** · Jun 28, 2001 06:32

I'm quite dissapointed Shin Ma -- you are smarter than your last post indicates. I'm not the one who's recently posted anything ignorant here.

Originally posted by Shin Ma
These are very annoying pre-judged assumptions. Why do you think their suicide rates are higher ? That's BECAUSE OF CHRISTIANS LIKE YOU. Do you only know how hard it is to live under constant social pressure like they do ? Do you only know how it's hard to love people around you and see that they reject you as a sinner just because you happen to like people of your gender ? Such kind of life is not very enjoyable.
They're not committing suicide just because they're homosexual. They're committing suicide because the social pressure pushes them to.

People like I cause homosexuals to committ suicide?

Alright, I'm not letting you off on this one: tell me why. What do I do that is so horrible? Tell them that they sin like I do and that they should find Jesus Christ? I don't threaten people will hell, so don't you dare try to lump me in with any wackos you might have met. I'm really getting tired of that

Originally posted by Shin Ma
Also, about STDs: we hear more about theirs, why ? Because homosexuals are more open than the average person about their sexuality. Do you think it can be of any interest for a christian person to talk about their sexuality ? Of course not, this casts the shadow of sin on them. But STDs are spread among "normal" people aswell.

Sorry, but both statements were ignorant and homophobic. I am not blaming you, that's just what you've read.

I don't believe for even a second that we simply hear about it more from homosexuals. Now, if you want, I will go online and search for references and reports, but I guarantee you that your calling it ignorant was more ignorant than my saying it. It's a widely accepted fact that homosexuals are more likely to be infected with an STD. Why and how are not of concern: it DOES happen, though.

Homophobic -- goodness, I'm tired of this word. Use it correctly. It VERY MUCH implies a fear or homosexuals. Whether you know it's meaning or not, that's what it implies to many people. I do not have an unreasonable fear of homosexuals. I've met two in person who's company I enjoyed, and one online that I found rather rude to me -- that's all.

Using homophobic as a blanket word for anyone who thinks homosexuality is unnatural is an easy way out. You want to know what it is? Another dang slogan. A buzzword.

I'm sorry if you consider this rude Shin Ma, but your accusations are ridiculously baseless.

z7 · Jun 28, 2001 06:37

There is one part of me that is VERY 'homophobic'...

No prises for guessing!

**Jeremy W.** · Jun 28, 2001 06:47

Oooh ooh!!! Me me!!! It's your feet!!!!

Quick last comment to fluffykins: Though I respect your opinion that you know how god should act I find it quite amusing. I mean, no matter how we look at it, if god created "all" he created time, space, reference and any number of the dimensions you may believe in. Thus, he is outside of those though he may choose to venture into them.

Thus, any "inner dimensional logic" is not only flat in comparison but has the wrong perspective anyways.

The whole thing of "god's ways are higher than ours" is totally true in any sense because I personally can't even think about there being 12 dimensions never mind how God could fit outside of them... It's taken me 3 months just to grasp 4 dimensions and how the whole of them fitting together seems to work (imho).

Anyways, point being we don't "know". Sure, we can say "yeah, I'm smart so I can set the rules for morality according to [x]" where [x] is how it feels, if it hurts people, if it is something you'd do in front of your parents, etc. However, these aren't rules of morality we're talking about. I think the practice of homosexuality (including lusftul thoughts) is sin, but no more or less sin than anything else. Personally the thought of having my rosebud penetrated is a very disgusting thing and it's more disgusting then say having a piece of gum stolen, however that doesn't make it any more wrong. I also have several friends who are gay and I'm not paranoid that they are checking me out (though I'd b1tch slap them if they were

) anymore than I am the chicks that I hang out with (sorry saz

).

Anyways, my point is that I simply don't agree with your position though I think it's a well thought out one so I respect it

I find too many people following a way simply because their friends or whatever are and that's just plain wrong so I find it admirable that someone else has taken the time to weigh/measure the evidence and facts, even if we came to different conclusions.

**TWTCommish** · Jun 28, 2001 06:47

Originally posted by Marina
Does any of you, who disapprove of homosexuality, have any other reason for that than the Bible?

I also believe it spreads disease faster, and is an un-natural act. Without The Bible, though, I can't say for sure where I would stand. Why do you ask?

Originally posted by jackiemcghee
How incredibly patronising. How dare you.

I think he was joking around. He was saying that despite there being so many of them, he stills believes they are incorrect. Knowing z7 a bit, I don't think he meant it the way it sounds.

Originally posted by Shin Ma
Let's suppose you're left-handed and you're visiting some muslim country. There in a restaurant, people start looking at you bad just because you eat with the left-hand, which is impure. So you ask why people are staring at you like this, and the concept of the-left-hand-is-impure is introduced to you. Eventually you finish your meal with the right hand, but that's very difficult and lots of food go on the table, on your clothes, on the floor.

How would you behave when you're back in your country ? Of course you'd go back to eating with the left hand, since it's how you've always done.

So, you'd be a sinner, 24 hours a day. After all, the Quran is the word of God too.

Yup, exactly: they can think what they want, can't they? I have nothing wrong with them telling me that they believe it to be sin. I won't whine about them "forcing" their religion on me either. I'll deal with it. If they convince me, so be it, if not, then I'll go on as I have.

So, in short: what's your point? That other religions have different ideas of sin? Well, I kind of figured that Shin Ma.

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