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  1. #1
    The Hiding One lynlimz's Avatar
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    MS Internet Explorer Monopoly

    Hi,

    Just wanted to pop this question in. Been wondering for sometime..as you see now, IE is gaining a monopoly in the browser market. Netscape is losing out..and it appears they've dropped out of the browser race? Will Mozilla and Opera be the remaining obstacles?

    What will happen when IE owns the market? Will we be obliged to take in whatever MS IE throws at us? Even so...Do we have a choice then?

    Thoughts please.
    Dio take a look at this thread which is in the General Chat.
    http://www.sitepointforums.com/showt...threadid=25142
    Last edited by lynlimz; Jun 11, 2001 at 21:34.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
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  2. #2
    SitePoint Member Craig Armstrong's Avatar
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    I believe that after the demise of Netscape, Opera will take over it's position and keep Micro$oft on their toes. IE won the battle, but they've yet to win the war!
    --Craig Armstrong

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  3. #3
    Blissed off
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    Let's see. You can obtain mozilla, netscape for free and even opera has a free mode that is add supported. With so many free competitors, does IE truly have a monopoly anymore. Sure it's bundled with windows, but nothing keeps you from downloading and running all these browers on your system at teh same time...

  4. #4
    SitePoint Enthusiast welded's Avatar
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    at least if they do manage a stranglehold on the browser market there's a better chance of one set of standards. hell, netscape is worse, but at least if the (overwhelming) majority of users ran in, i wouldn't have to test every little element in multilple browsers.
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  5. #5
    The Hiding One lynlimz's Avatar
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    I guess so. However, its the competition that makes MS even make an effort to make IE complaince -> and improve it.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
    -- Albert Einstein

  6. #6
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    What the hell is wrong with microsoft? I mean, the statement "hell, netscape is worse, but at least if the (overwhelming) majority of users ran in, i wouldn't have to test every little element in multilple browsers" means you'd have no problem with netscape having a monopoly but as soon as MS does we demean them?

    Let me ask you something. If IE5 had been incredibly buggy, been awful to use, had crap developer support would it have lasted? No. Simple as that, people would have switched to netscape (I can offer proof if you really feel it necessary).

    The reality is that MS made a superior product in IE4, 5 (no v5 from NS) and now in 6. The only reason people even use NS is because they don't want to use a microsoft product. That's the same reason people use StarOffice or Wordperfect... Because they want a non-MS product. I mean, give me a break, how childish is this.

    Further, if you honestly believe Opera can step up to the plate, bring it on. The reality is if someone made a really good, friendly, developer-friendly browser that was small, fast and had some cool features IE would be toppled for that generation. If they continued to, IE would fall. Simple.

    So, don't lament that IE has gained a monopoly, lament bad business decisions on the part of their competitors.
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  7. #7
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    Netscape sucks...did I already say that?

    go coco!
    Adobe Certified Coldfusion MX 7 Developer
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    Mozilla is shaping up to be a great piece of software. It may be too late for the browser battle, but I love it and am using a daily build as my regular browser now. Very little stability problems and fast, memory footprint is still on the large side though.

  9. #9
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    Yup, Mozilla is quite a nice browser, it's much better than netscape 6. But I still prefer IE 5.5. (Sorry netscape die-hards).

    I don't like the idea of Microsoft monopolising everything in the software market, but like someone earlier on mentioned, it is a superior product.

    I was a diehard fan of netscape 3, but ever since IE 5 appeared.....and netscape became buggy and horrible.....
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    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Duckie, so... IE is smaller, just as fast, no bugs... Why not use this?

    Any other reasons than because it's MS?

    I'm not pro ms, but I'm totally against partisanship in design... I mean, it's just as bad for the whole anti-frontpage stupid people.

    It's also bad in the asp vs php camps... I mean, get a life, so many people are against soooo much MS stuff, SIMPLY because it's MS and this is not only silly it's wrong and bad for business.

    Hey @ creole
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  11. #11
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    Well, how to explain this. I am not anti-MS, ASP is my web development language of choice, and I use Windows 2000 both at home and at work.

    The reason why I'm using Mozilla is as frivolous as me liking the new, revamped Modern skin, which is the default interface.

    And I have oodles of RAM
    Last edited by duckie; Jun 12, 2001 at 11:12.

  12. #12
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    FINE :P
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  13. #13
    SitePoint Enthusiast welded's Avatar
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    Originally posted by studiococo
    What the hell is wrong with microsoft? I mean, the statement "hell, netscape is worse, but at least if the (overwhelming) majority of users ran in, i wouldn't have to test every little element in multilple browsers" means you'd have no problem with netscape having a monopoly but as soon as MS does we demean them?
    you COMPLETELY missed my point. read my post again and you'll see i say no such things as, 'darn ie and their monopolies, i wish netscape had one.' what i said, in layman's terms, is that at least if there were one browser to take into consideration, you wouldn't have to test on several platforms. i did not pick favorites, i did not condemn internet explorer because it's from microsoft. infact, sit down, i prefer internet explorer.

    i suggest next time you decided to go on a rant about something i say, make sure you have a better grasp on the subject, especially when resorting to calling me "childish".

    thank you.
    it's amazing what velocity can do
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  14. #14
    SitePoint Wizard
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    Originally posted by studiococo
    I mean, get a life, so many people are against soooo much MS stuff, SIMPLY because it's MS and this is not only silly it's wrong and bad for business.
    I don't think that is true. Of course there are a few people who are a little extreme, but for the most part people don't hate something "simply because it is MS". I do not like how Microsoft is getting so large, but I still use several of their products. I am typing on an MS keyboard and using an MS Mouse. I am using an MS browser in an MS Operating system. All of it by choice too - I love Microsoft's mice and keyboards. Windows 2000 is the most stable and compatible OS there is, and their browser makes pages look their best.

    You know that if there was more competition things would be better for everyone, except a certain person at Microsoft who is rich enough as it is. It wouldn't be fair to Microsoft to split them up or release the Windows source code, but then again it isn't fair to the small (and large) companies who are competing with Microsoft right now. Microsoft has so many monopolies that it is hurting us.

    I don't think that having just one browser would solve much. It would be a monopoly, and development wouldn't be the same if there were competition. Sure it would be easier to code for, but if you follow standards, you shouldn't have to check your pages in multiple browsers.

  15. #15
    Victory shall be mine tubedogg's Avatar
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    Originally posted by studiococo
    The only reason people even use NS is because they don't want to use a microsoft product.
    This is ********. I use/used NS daily because *I wanted to*, not because I didn't want to use an MS product. If I really had it in for MS I would use Linux with NS.
    Kevin

  16. #16
    Victory shall be mine tubedogg's Avatar
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    Originally posted by studiococo
    [B]Duckie, so... IE is smaller, just as fast, no bugs... Why not use this?
    This is part of the problem. Why should I use what *you* want me to use? Why try to convince others to use what you use when they are very clearly happy with what they currently use? Why does everyone have to play follow the leader? I'm by no stretch of the imagination anti-MS but come on.
    Kevin

  17. #17
    SitePoint Enthusiast welded's Avatar
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    i follow standards as best i can, it's the browsers who can't seem to agree who's standard is infact the real standard. infact, as i type this i am attempting to apply some very simple css formatting to some cgi output because the default output doesn't look the same in ie and netscape. i think we all know that it would be nice if they agreed on things like this, even if they both did them wrong. a little consistancy would be nice, is all i'm saying.

    i never use it, but from what i've seen and read, netscape 6 apparently helps alleviate the situation a bit.
    it's amazing what velocity can do
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  18. #18
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Holy frick, that was fun, gotta love a bit of community spirit

    Let's tackle these one by one since I was sleeping and couldn't even defend myself against this vicious attack

    welded: Sorry for any confusion then

    aidan: Aright, I didn't want to get into this. People use linux because: 1. It's not windows 2. They believe it's more stable (as you said win2k is just as, if not more, stable) 3. Their friends do... Therefore, one of the prime reaons for them staying away from "windoze" is simply becuase it's ms.

    Php users claim php is better because it's faster when compiled, it's non-proprietary and "open-source" (90% don't actually use thsi open-sourceness they consider so valuable). Yet, they have no problem with people using Java or cfm. They are RABIDLY against people using asp though. Ask any php'er what they think of asp and you will get a venomous reply that php is better and essentially a "down with microsoft" answer. Ask them what they think of cgi (non open source) and they'll just shrug. Ask them what they think of CFM and Java (non open source AND proprietary) and they'll just shrug (unless they are reading this in which case they will suddenly develop a righteous anger against them both )

    Therefore, my point wasn't that all people thought all ms products were bad (though the "it's ms so it's buggy" rumour still always goes around), but that many of their products are prejudiced or put down (others want the competing product to quash the ms product... Even though their complaining about the "monopoly" of ms, they'd rather it be another product that have that "monopoly" and therefore it's not the monopoly that is the problem to them, in reality, but MS.) because they are ms.

    tube: Good for you, you are a minority and I respect your opinion and good judgement in not being a follower. I'm NOT telling you what product to use, but pointing out that a large percentage of users of certain products use inferior products simply becuase they aren't microsoft.

    welded: You need to get your history straight. Browsers were released in large part before standards were approved or implemented and the manufacturers needed to make "judgement calls" on what they thought the standards might be, while trying to provide users with a great experience and developers with some extra "toys". We see this in IE with activex and in ns with layers and jsstyles. The "standards" you are soooo for were only implemented after the v4 browsers came out. Further, both ns6 and ie6 adhere incredibly strictly to the dtd standard sets, therefore, specify your dtd and you're safe on both browsers.
    Last edited by Jeremy W.; Jun 13, 2001 at 05:08.
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  19. #19
    SitePoint Zealot honging's Avatar
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    As long as Microsoft makes good Internet Explorer versions, I'll stick with them

    It's actually probably better that MS is the dominant force... imagine if IE hadn't existed... then it would be NS, Opera, Mozilla, and a couple other no-names... ugh.coding for all of them is something i dare not think about.

    at least now i code for IE and check to make sure it works in NN

  20. #20
    SitePoint Zealot strangealienmagic's Avatar
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    I like IE, would rather code for IE, and don't (for the most part) have a problem with Microsoft, but...

    You folks might want to take a look at what MS has planned for the future: http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/stories...772297,00.html

    Personally, I'd rather go to Opera (which I know nothing about) than endure that.

  21. #21
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    Originally posted by studiococo
    aidan: Aright, I didn't want to get into this. People use linux because: 1. It's not windows 2. They believe it's more stable (as you said win2k is just as, if not more, stable) 3. Their friends do... Therefore, one of the prime reaons for them staying away from "windoze" is simply becuase it's ms.

    It's *really* more stable if you run all the usual tasks as an user and not (as seen on many people who just came out of Windows' world) as root, and it's easier to code there (comes with a bunch of powerful programming languages). Usual desktop tasks can be done the same way as on windows with graphical apps.
    If a crash occurs, you know why it did (no "Crappysoftware.exe has caused a problem in byte #4ef567ab" here, the error messages are clear enough to see where the problem is, so you can fix it or prevent it from occuring again: on Windows you just push the Reset button and pray for it not to happen again).

    If you reduce the motivation to "it's not MS", then how do you explai so few are running BeOS or other competitors ?


    Php users claim php is better because it's faster when compiled, it's non-proprietary and "open-source" (90% don't actually use thsi open-sourceness they consider so valuable). Yet, they have no problem with people using Java or cfm. They are RABIDLY against people using asp though. Ask any php'er what they think of asp and you will get a venomous reply that php is better and essentially a "down with microsoft" answer. Ask them what they think of cgi (non open source) and they'll just shrug. Ask them what they think of CFM and Java (non open source AND proprietary) and they'll just shrug (unless they are reading this in which case they will suddenly develop a righteous anger against them both )

    CGI isn't open source ? Maybe C isn't, but Perl and Python are opensource languages and they're the most used in CGIs nowadays, so we can say CGI is opensource.
    So is Java by the way, even if it's a proprietary language of Sun. I think CFM isn't, though.
    I'm using PHP and MySQL because the connections to databases are much easier than on ASP (and ASP is most of the times written in Visual Basic, a language that I have learned to dislike the hard way).

    Believe it or not, lots of people are using PHP because it's more portable and powerful than ASP.


    Therefore, my point wasn't that all people thought all ms products were bad (though the "it's ms so it's buggy" rumour still always goes around), but that many of their products are prejudiced or put down (others want the competing product to quash the ms product... Even though their complaining about the "monopoly" of ms, they'd rather it be another product that have that "monopoly" and therefore it's not the monopoly that is the problem to them, in reality, but MS.) because they are ms.

    If MS Word 2K didn't crash so much on my machines and if generally the Office suite was a real office suite and not bloatware, I'd say MS has good software along with its good browser.


    tube: Good for you, you are a minority and I respect your opinion and good judgement in not being a follower. I'm NOT telling you what product to use, but pointing out that a large percentage of users of certain products use inferior products simply becuase they aren't microsoft.

    I'm using the latest Mozilla builds because they're faster and better than IE6 and the crashrate has fallen dramatically near 0. Mozilla also launches faster than IE nowadays.


    welded: You need to get your history straight. Browsers were released in large part before standards were approved or implemented and the manufacturers needed to make "judgement calls" on what they thought the standards might be, while trying to provide users with a great experience and developers with some extra "toys". We see this in IE with activex and in ns with layers and jsstyles. The "standards" you are soooo for were only implemented after the v4 browsers came out. Further, both ns6 and ie6 adhere incredibly strictly to the dtd standard sets, therefore, specify your dtd and you're safe on both browsers.

    CSS1 standards date back to 1996, the first browser to use them (v4) were released in 1997.
    [blogger: zengun] [blogware contributor: wordpress]

  22. #22
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    I've been using IE 5 and 5.5 for a while now. And it has won. The implications are a lot more serious than the design standards, I think. But make no mistake about it - Microsoft will be the real decision maker when it comes to what's standard. No other browsers are going to be able to cut into the market sufficiently for it to be otherwise. Mozilla? Strictly for geeks. Opera? Not bad, but on the user end, doesn't support javascript as well as IE 5. Users don't sit around and admire how the browser is "pickier". A strict browser just isn't delivering pages as well as a forgiving one as far as a user is concerned. People went to the trouble of downloading Netscape when their surfing experience was much better with Netscape. Now, a lot of people don't even know that are browsers other than what comes on their PCs. They haven't had to look into it, because what they've got works pretty well.

    I don't think that's as much of a big deal as the question of how IE won is, though. Yes, I know it made a better browser, but IE was facing the only threat to its total dominance in the last couple of years, with the possibility that AOL would use Netscape. What made AOL decide not to do that, and, in fact, not to go ahead with development of Netscape as a browser?
    And what does this have to do with Smart Tags? And what's next in Microsoft and AOL's plans to force feed profitable content to the public? That matters to me. Design is nice but content is what's important. Who controls content is vital to what the web is or can be in the future.

  23. #23
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    ah, someone with some actual knowledge and a valuable opinion, thanx shin ma, time to argue now

    As I said, they believe it to be more stable was my first point, and another reason (not tied to the first though quoted just as often) is that it's not ms.

    No, cgi isn't open source. Open source infers the ability to change the actual interpreter as well as client side presentation layer shyte. CGi doesn't allow this. Perl as a component to cgi is open source in the fact that it is modifiable in this way, but it is still not in and of itself a part of the "let's everyone modify it" bandwagon.

    Again, neither is the java interpreter or runtime engines open source though you can plug all the stuff into it you want. The actual java compilation routines which are "standard" as well as the compliation subsets are proprietary and very closed source.

    Eitehr way, teh point stands. Uncompiled php isn't faster than uncompiled asp, the return rates are very similar. Compiled php and compiled asp run much the same speed. In terms of power, well maybe but that is simply because the latest version of asp hasn't been fully released and hte newest one (from which all this "power" comes) is.

    Only other point to argue with is that CSS1 was released as a working draft by teh advisory group in 96, but not fully approved as a standard until mid 97, well after the v4 browsers were either launched or too far into the development phase to worry about.
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  24. #24
    Back in Action Winged Spider's Avatar
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    I don't want to get to involved in the debate raging here.

    But Ill say a few tidbits.

    Netscape (the browser) isn't dead, its just in its cocoon waiting to emerge in it's next incarnation. Whatever that may be.

    I used IE because it was the fastest browser that I had on my comp. Now I use Opera. I feel its faster and handles code pretty we'll, not Java though.

    I am anti monopoly but if a monopoly produces something good, like Windows, IE, and Word then I'll use it. That's the bottom line.

    IE own the market? Not likely, with guys from everywhere trying to create something more popular and better than IE, someday they will succeed. Opera is great, but I always here great praises of other browsers that I have yet to download.

    The internet is a chaotic mass of information and resources that will never give in to a nubmer 1 anything.

    Enough for me. Later


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    SitePoint Enthusiast welded's Avatar
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    look, i don't want to argue or debate anything, i made a simple comment but you just can't seem to get it. maybe you think i'm saying more than i really am. perhaps i wasn't as clear as i could have been. regardless, i understand broswer makers had to get by with educated guesses. i didn't realize that this was up for debate. we'll ignore the fact that it has been several years and numerous updates since then, and i return to the point of my post.

    whether it's one browser who's won the entire pie, or several who behave the same,
    Originally posted by welded
    a little consistancy would be nice, is all i'm saying.
    and this is my opinion. it is not meant to be taken as well researched and historically accurate fact and it is not to be over (or under) analyzed. a simple opinion, that is all.

    i appologize if i'm coming off antagonistic, but it really annoys me when i have to explain my position over and over, especially when i feel it's been made quite clear. i shall remove myself from this discussion now. i have had my say, and i have no knowledge of the cgi/cfm/et al debate.
    it's amazing what velocity can do
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