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  1. #51
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Marina

    No, I'll be calling myself that when I start killing other people (for any reason).
    I don't approve of death penalty mostly because I don't want to become a killer myself. Someone has to stop the violence. It will never end if we point at each other and say "he killed, therefore I can kill as well".
    But see Marina, that's where you and I part ways. I don't think that the Death Penalty is Murder. I believe it is justice for crimes committed.

    Murder is what McVeigh did. Justice is what we did.

    The Dictionary defines murder as:

    1)The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

    Unlawful is the key.
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  2. #52
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    FINALLY - a free thinker! (Brian Asselin)

    Might I add that among the dead at Waco were 25 Children...
    Last edited by z7; Jun 12, 2001 at 07:59.

  3. #53
    SitePoint Wizard westmich's Avatar
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    Interesting article, but you'll find as much material on the Internet about Kennedy, the Moon landing, and alien abduction.

    Why hasn't any reputable news agency picked up on it? Or are they all in on it too?
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  4. #54
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    You said it buddy!

    Wasn't it Karl Marx who said Television would be the best tool for population control?

  5. #55
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    So McVeigh was ticked about Waco -- what's your point? No one here, I don't believe, has put any defense towards Waco. Just because some wacko might try to emulate him, it doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything.

    Some people hold rallies outside: "Free Bob Jones", or something of the sort. Some go farther and imitate the person in prison -- does that mean we should not jail them? Of course not.

    Whether or not people might try to imitate him isn't really the argument here. It can't be, because it's pure opinion as to where the line is drawn. We do all seem to agree that these people are horrible, and that prisons are far too pleasant in some places.

    I will always go back, however, to that picture in my mind. Unless I somehow forget it, I will always favor the death penalty. Just because of that? No, of course not, but I am a bit chilled that some people would wish mercy on him after seeing that photo.

  6. #56
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Where was the Justice after Waco? - that is my point.

  7. #57
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I don't know -- I have not read thoroughly of Waco, and I would certainly have to to take a stance on things. However, it isn't relevant to the conversation. If justice was not done in the past, it's not exactly a good reason for it not to be done now, or in the future.

  8. #58
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    I'd say it is very relative - seeing as it was the guys main reason for the Bomb(s) which he supposedly planted?

  9. #59
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I'm not saying it is not related. I'm saying that is not relevant to the point at hand: should we be killing McVeigh? Is it justice? I say it is. I don't have to defend Waco if I think McVeigh should die. We can't go around making all laws based on whether or not terrorists might break them or not -- that's not how things work.

  10. #60
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    I am just trying to get you guys to think about "Justice" in your country...

  11. #61
    SitePoint Addict Seer's Avatar
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    I don't think our justice system is any great success and I don't think anyone has one that could be considered this. I don't necessarily agree with the death penalty, even in this case. Do people really believe that this sets an example? I don't accept that one for a second. Calling it justice seems to be nothing more than a term used to try and justify the very act. When you think about it, what do you envision the prison system to look like 20 years from now? I'd really not like to see executions become a part of everyday life. There needs to be an alternative or a middle ground.
    Everything has been figured out, except how to live. - Jean-Paul Sartre (1905-1980)

  12. #62
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    ...more the notion than the system...

  13. #63
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    Originally posted by creole
    Murder is what McVeigh did. Justice is what we did.

    The Dictionary defines murder as:

    1)The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

    Unlawful is the key.
    That's right. The definition of "unlawful" may change though.
    Death Penalty in US may be lawful today but unlawful tomorrow. There are lots of examples in our history of people being killed lawfully. Remember the jews in Nazi Germany for example. It was lawful to execute them. After a few years it wasn't lawful anymore. During war it's lawful to kill the "enemies", during peace time it's not lawful anymore. People change the laws all the time. Europe has allready stopped killing their criminals. Now they criticize US for doing the exact same thing they themselves did 100 years ago. It doesn't take a long time to forget ones own mistakes I guess.

  14. #64
    SitePoint Addict Kakarot720's Avatar
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    Justice? What the heck is that? Who said anything about justice?

    Does it exist?

    Last I checked, justice was in the eye of the beholder....

  15. #65
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Yes, of course it is. 99% of what is said one these forums consist of personal views and opinions. No one is claiming that it is undeniably factual -- It's just clear-cut to me personally, and likely those who say it.

  16. #66
    SitePoint Zealot Supermoo2's Avatar
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    I know he's dead now but Why Kill Him?????

    Why not send him to israel to fight in the army. He'll proboaly just get killed over there. I was watching the 7.30 report and someone said something like "Timithy Mcveigh was a talented army officer."

    I'm not talking about the air force, but ground battle. What nut is going to give a mass murderer a bomber??????

    Theres my 3.5 cents!
    Ummmm.......

    Whats the internet ??????

  17. #67
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I don't trust McVeigh to fight in our army -- don't you realize what a security risk that can be? Wouldn't be justice IMO anyway.

  18. #68
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    A report I heard on NPR said that McVeigh was a skilled sniper. They said something like that he killed an escaping enemy soldier at around 1000 yards (914 metres).

    Would you really want to give him a gun?
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  19. #69
    SitePoint Addict Kakarot720's Avatar
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    I agree with you TWTCommish. In this case, in my opinion, justice was clearly served. Death was the only reasonable punishment. A life sentence just wouldn't have cut it for me.
    What McVeigh did was horrible, he deserved what he got...

  20. #70
    Sports Publisher mjames's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Supernerd
    I know he's dead now but Why Kill Him?????

    Why not send him to israel to fight in the army. He'll proboaly just get killed over there. I was watching the 7.30 report and someone said something like "Timithy Mcveigh was a talented army officer."

    I'm not talking about the air force, but ground battle. What nut is going to give a mass murderer a bomber??????

    Theres my 3.5 cents!
    Are you insane? You are suggesting we put criminals in our army just because they will probably die overseas. That's doing a terrible injustice to the veterans who are NOT criminals, who are great, loyal U.S. citizens who are willing to put their life on line in order to defend their loved country.

    That's one of the most ludicrous things I've ever heard. And as TWT said, not to mention the security risks it creates.

  21. #71
    SitePoint Zealot strangealienmagic's Avatar
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    Interesting arguements on both sides, but I don't know how you can equate executing McVeigh and what happened at Waco, with the mass murder he perpetrated in his cause to bring the US government to justice.

    Waco - Korresh could have walked out at any time and had his day in court. How long was the siege before the final assault? Did he really think the FBI was just going to walk away? He could have easily sent the children out to safety any time.

    McVeigh's attack on OK City - People didin't know what hit them until they were already shredded. They weren't armed, nor aware of any threat, or they wouldn't have brought their children to the Federal Building that morning.

    McVeigh was upset that the US government is trampling the rights of it's citizens. He was outraged over the murder of innocent children in Waco and at Ruby Ridge...

    So he murders 168 people that he never knew and wounds 600 more to bring the government's treachery to the public's attention?

    There is no logic to that at all. You kill more of your fellow citizens than the government did, because you're concerned about their future?

    This man deserved to be eliminated from society due to the total lack of regard for the lives of others, namely us!

    If, like Amnesty International (which I supported at one time), you can't differentiate between the killing done BY McVeigh and the killing OF McVeigh - if you can't see the vast difference in the processes that triggered the two actions - if unprovoked murder of innocents and the execution of a criminal after due process in the legal system are one in the same to you - then this society really IS in trouble.

  22. #72
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Oh my Lord - proves how much you lot know about your, how would the media put it? - "Baby-killing Monster"

    HE SERVED HIS COUNTRY IN THE GULF WAR!
    Infact he was such a damn fine soldier that he was assigned to protect General Schwartzkoph!

    What turned him against his country was the UN's/US's disregard of civilian life in the Gulf - Glovachy Road, supposedly the destruction of a military convoy leaving Bagdad(?) - NO, civilians...

    You are fed a diet of lies by the media and swallow them whole-heartedly. You wouldn't know the truth if it came and bit you in the ****!


    Oh and Waco - you are telling me they couldn't have sent your super-fly army elites in to rescue the children?
    Where did you learn about Waco - I know where, your frikin TV's!

  23. #73
    SitePoint Evangelist mad-onion's Avatar
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    z7, the point you raise was one i considered raising! Although i think ive started my fair share of points on this issue!
    Yes McVeigh was a VERY highly regarded soldier.

    I suppose you could almost look at it as an equasion...

    Killed: 168
    Rescued: 12320 (made up figure)
    which would obviously mean he has been worthwhile to humanity!

    i do personally think that he has a very good point that the US government (as a whole) have a very brash attitude and frankly think they are untouchable, and that does not come off tv because the media down here are to pc to say something like that!

    Waco is an interesting situation, according to the feds they gave ample oppurtunity for anyone who wished to to leave! However that is frankly not good enough, you are on the ball z7 you would think that the worlds greatest police force could have ended a situation like that more peacefully!!

    On the flip side Tim did kill 168 people, many of them innocent civilians! And for that there is NO escuse! I personally think that McVeigh and the feds are just as guilty as each other..

    Perhaps it is also irresponsible to put a child creche in a federal building.. i mean they must be known targets of attacks, more so than say a public library!

    This debate will no doubt go on and on, not only at SP but all over the world, we will probably never know what really motivated Tim McVeigh...

    I have another conspiracy theory, maybe McVeigh never left the army and the Oklahoma bombing was a setup to maybe detroy some documents or something...fair fetched but i dont think its unfathomable...maybe Tim is really in Mexico now sipping a glass of martini next to a pool
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  24. #74
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    ...you would think that the worlds greatest police force could have ended a situation like that more peacefully!!
    Well YES - instead of using TANKS and GAS!

    Perhaps it is also irresponsible to put a child creche in a federal building.. i mean they must be known targets of attacks, more so than say a public library!
    Well I think daycare centers are a piss-poor way to bring up a children anyways...

    Apologies for my anger - I am angry - you should be to...
    Last edited by z7; Jun 13, 2001 at 02:22.

  25. #75
    SitePoint Zealot strangealienmagic's Avatar
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    Originally posted by z7
    What turned him against his country was the UN's/US's disregard of civilian life in the Gulf - Glovachy Road, supposedly the destruction of a military convoy leaving Bagdad(?) - NO, civilians...

    You are fed a diet of lies by the media and swallow them whole-heartedly. You wouldn't know the truth if it came and bit you in the ****!
    Yeah, well, you overlooked the US's use of depleted uranium weapons in Iraq during the Gulf War and the illness and birth defects (including fetuses with no heads) that plague those areas even today. We're not quite as ignorant of our government actions here in land of stars and stripes as you assume.

    But how does killing 169 of your fellow citizens help right these wrongs?


    Oh and Waco - you are telling me they couldn't have sent your super-fly army elites in to rescue the children?
    Where did you learn about Waco - I know where, your frikin TV's!
    #1. Our FBI guys got shot up and driven off the one time they did try to enter the compound by force, early in the standoff.

    #2. One of the big controversies surrounding Waco is the possible presence of actual military personel on the scene - who were NOT supposed to be present, since this was a civil matter.

    #3. Can you imagine the recriminations and outrage toward the government if what you are suggesting had been tried and even one child had been slightly injured?

    It's not just a matter of learning facts (no matter where you get your information), you have to be able to effectively process the information as well.


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