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  1. #26
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    We pass laws to deter criminal behavior, how good of a deterent would they be if we didn't follow them ourselves? The process of putting someone on death row and executing them is laid out in our laws, we're only following those laws.

    That being said, why do those laws exist? Not to punish, or get revenge on someone. To make an example out of them.

    By killing Timothy McVeigh we are saying that if you do something like what he did you will die.


    The only thing we gain out of his execution is a message, a message sent to every potential criminal out there, if you do this you will die.

    So we killed him to save lives. No one can see the future but the life of a murderer is a small price to pay to potentially save the lives of 168 people who would have been killed in another bomb.

    The death penalty does not exist to punish the person being killed or to get revenge on on them. It exists to deter criminals from committing the most heinous crimes.

    And another thing. It is not us to judge or to forgive Timothy McVeigh. That right rests solely on the families of the 168 people he killed.
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  2. #27
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Hmm... Hopefully if you need to know my stance on Death Penalty you could check that thread (I am anti).

    Well, now Mr McVeigh is dead. It is a bit wonderous, the whole process of strapping somebody down and forcing them to take a lethal injection that they know will kill them. It is not for the faint hearted and I dread to think of what he screamed as it was happening, or whether he screamed at all.

    To me, the most terrifying thing would be to see someone that knew they were about to die, die. I imagine that a number of children will be having nightmares over this all over again.

    I disagreed with the decision not to videotape the killing, even for archival purposes. Nobody can be sure whether the killing was carried out in an honest, humane manner. Nobody will know what his last reaction was. It is almost as if McVeigh's killers want to pretend that the act never occurred.

    Hmm...
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  3. #28
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Originally posted by aspen

    And another thing. It is not us to judge or to forgive Timothy McVeigh. That right rests solely on the families of the 168 people he killed.
    Surely it is not for any of us, here on earth, to judge him, including the families. Only the victims themselves can forgive him, I would say.
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  4. #29
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    That being said, why do those laws exist? Not to punish, or get revenge on someone. To make an example out of them.
    Yes, punishment exists to make an example out of people that don't follow the law. It's a good idea but it doesn't seem to work!
    I think that it's reasonable to assume that McVeigh knew that killing 168 people would result in death penalty. But he did what he did anyway - why? "Just an evil person" is not a good enough answer. "I don't care" is not a good enough answer either. We have to understand the problem before we can find a solution.
    Oh, by the way, I read in another thread about someone in Japan killing children in a school because he wanted to be killed himself. Without death penalty these kind of people wouldn't have to kill others. They would have to think of some other way of commiting suicide.

  5. #30
    Nice Mug jer's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mmj

    Well, now Mr McVeigh is dead. It is a bit wonderous, the whole process of strapping somebody down and forcing them to take a lethal injection that they know will kill them. It is not for the faint hearted and I dread to think of what he screamed as it was happening, or whether he screamed at all.
    To answer that for you: No, he did not scream. He looked at thet Media present, then he looked at the Gov't Representitives and then he looked at some of the victims families who were there (I believe 10 were allowed there?) After that, he stared into the camera in the ceiling above him which fed into a room of almost 300 of the victims' families. He looked at the camera, and 'looked through the camera, at the people', but he did not say a word. He just looked at them with his cold eyes.

    If you want a more detailed, morbid and what I found to be horribly disturbing account, you can see someone speaking at a press conference describing each thing that happened. I couldn't listen to it after a while, once she got to the part after they injected the first drug I was almost sick.

    It's truly disturbing, and horribly, horribly sad that these people can witness the death of another human being.. not only that, but have actually obsessed with seeing him die today. Even in light of his horrible, disgusting crimes, he is still a human and I can't ever imagine myself wishing to witness another human being killed.
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  6. #31
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Yes, punishment exists to make an example out of people that don't follow the law. It's a good idea but it doesn't seem to work!
    What would you suggest then? Personally the threat of punishment if the only thing that deters criminals in my opinion. Do you know why I don't speed that much? My car is fast I could do it, but I don't want a ticket.

    If someone pisses me off I get angry enough to say slit the tires on their car, why don't I do it? Because if someone saw me I could get arrested.

    Sure those aren't big crimes but do you really think its any different for bigger crimes? I'm sure there are alot of depraved people out there who don't rape little girls only because they dont want to go to jail.

    I say punishment is a wonderful deterrent. And not all criminals are like McVeigh, many weep and moan over getting the death penalty, showing that had they known ahead of time they would get the death penalty they would not have committed the crime. (assuming it was premeditated - which all death penalty crimes need to be).

    Sometimes people will kill someone without thinking of the consequences, but if they do, and the spectre of the death penalty looms over their head, they may not go through with it. And so the death penalty would have saved 1 life, or if it was a bomb, 100, a nuclear bomb? Millions.

    Get rid of the death penalty and you're gambling with the lives of those millions of people.

    In the words of Spock "The good of the many outweighs the good of the few." If killing someone who killed 168 people prevents someone else from killing 168 people then I think the end justifies the means.
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  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard westmich's Avatar
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    Oh, by the way, I read in another thread about someone in Japan killing children in a school because he wanted to be killed himself. Without death penalty these kind of people wouldn't have to kill others. They would have to think of some other way of commiting suicide.
    Are you nuts?

    I am not supporter of the death penality, but I have never heard of such an un-logical reason against it.

    One thought that has helped me bring some understanding to this is the fact that much of our justice system is shaped by victims and the family of victims. The victims of extreme crimes want the guilty to be put to death in most cases and always have. It's only the last fifty years or so that reason has played a larger role, but the influence and tireless efforts of those most affected continues to make an influence.
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  8. #33
    SitePoint Addict Brian Asselin's Avatar
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    Originally posted by aspen

    By killing Timothy McVeigh we are saying that if you do something like what he did you will die.
    Hasn't this gone full circle now? He killed because they killed, so they killed because he killed? Now who's turn is it? When does it end?

  9. #34
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I don't konw about you, but there is one picture, more than any other I can recall, that is burned into my memory. It is that of a firefighter holding a dead infant in his hands, standing in rubble. McVeigh is gone, and the world is better for it now. I don't know if I'll ever forget that image. I lost it. My father lost control of his emotions. I'm not ashamed to admit it either.

  10. #35
    Hi there! Owen's Avatar
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    Well let me put it this way. If one doesn't want to be put to death, they should kill 160 something people.

    (also, it's essentially suicide-by-cop... he's said many times he wants to be killed.)

    Owen

  11. #36
    Fried Gold Polymath's Avatar
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    To all the people saying, "how can you watch another human die?", remember Ancient Rome? Ever seen Gladiator? Your responses are only the product of social conditioning.
    A little over a hundred years ago, thousands used to turn up to watch the hangings. Many of you would have gone too.
    If you were born in Serbia, say, your outlook would be a lot more robust. And that is because of the conditions over there.
    Remember the Nazi concentration camps? Humans did that. Less than sixty years ago.
    Really, we should count ourselves extremely lucky to live in a society that can afford these sentiments. It would be worse if no-one turned a hair, no doubt.

  12. #37
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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  13. #38
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    A person with a mind and attitude like McVeighs who can make bombs and has the balls to do the type of crime he has commited is going to be a dangerous man WHEREVER he is..

    Yeah I think he deserved to die...

    I donlt really agree with the death penalty as I think if it means one person can get wrongly executed then it should not be a part of the US Justice system..

    However this is a case where clearly someone is guilty, deserved to die for his crime and did... Plain and simple
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  14. #39
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    Originally posted by westmich

    Are you nuts?
    No, I'll be calling myself that when I start killing other people (for any reason).
    I don't approve of death penalty mostly because I don't want to become a killer myself. Someone has to stop the violence. It will never end if we point at each other and say "he killed, therefore I can kill as well".

  15. #40
    SitePoint Addict Kakarot720's Avatar
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    It's truly disturbing, and horribly, horribly sad that these people can witness the death of another human being.. not only that, but have actually obsessed with seeing him die today. Even in light of his horrible, disgusting crimes, he is still a human and I can't ever imagine myself wishing to witness another human being killed.
    I think you'd change your tune if McVeigh had killed your wife and newborn child just for the hell of it....

  16. #41
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Brian Asselin


    Hasn't this gone full circle now? He killed because they killed, so they killed because he killed? Now who's turn is it? When does it end?
    What are you talking about? Its not a circle. If someone plants a bomb that kills 168 people we're going to kill them.

    Death is the consequence of mass murder. Any criminal wanting to commit mass murder will have to do so knowing that if we catch him he will die. That fact may deter him from his course of action thus saving lives.
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  17. #42
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    In a letter dated May 17, 1995, hand-delivered to each member of the Congress and Senate, General Partin stated:

    When I first saw the pictures of the truck-bomb's asymmetrical damage to the Federal Building, my immediate reaction was that the pattern of damage would have been technically impossible without supplementing demolition charges at some of the reinforcing concrete column bases…. For a simplistic blast truck-bomb, of the size and composition reported, to be able to reach out on the order of 60 feet and collapse a reinforced column base the size of column A-7 is beyond credulity.
    Hello?

  18. #43
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    I donlt really agree with the death penalty as I think if it means one person can get wrongly executed then it should not be a part of the US Justice system..
    Now in every state its different, but for most to be put to death there can be no doubt you did the crime. For instance you cannot have been convicted solely by eye witness testimony, there has to be piles of additional evidence.
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  19. #44
    SitePoint Addict Kakarot720's Avatar
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    I donlt really agree with the death penalty as I think if it means one person can get wrongly executed then it should not be a part of the US Justice system..
    If we removed laws just b/c there was a possibility that a person could be wrongly convicted there wouldn't be any laws on the books at all. It is unfortunate but true, wrongful convictions happen, regardless of how many checks and balances are put into place.

  20. #45
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Wake up...

  21. #46
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    ... Sorry, I must have dozed off...
    Last edited by freakysid; Jun 12, 2001 at 05:26.

  22. #47
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    (RATM Song, innit!)

  23. #48
    SitePoint Addict Seer's Avatar
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    Just an informative note.

    According to data collected by the Federal Government, from 1930 to 1998, 4,359 persons were executed under civil authority (table 10).***Footnote 2: Military authorities carried out an additional 160 executions, 1930-98.

    After the Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty in 1976, 29 States executed 500 prisoners

    Definately some interesting statistics..
    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/cp98.txt
    Last edited by Seer; Jun 12, 2001 at 05:40.
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  24. #49
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Marina
    Yes, punishment exists to make an example out of people that don't follow the law. It's a good idea but it doesn't seem to work! I think that it's reasonable to assume that McVeigh knew that killing 168 people would result in death penalty. But he did what he did anyway - why? "Just an evil person" is not a good enough answer. "I don't care" is not a good enough answer either. We have to understand the problem before we can find a solution. Oh, by the way, I read in another thread about someone in Japan killing children in a school because he wanted to be killed himself. Without death penalty these kind of people wouldn't have to kill others. They would have to think of some other way of commiting suicide.
    Marina...you will ALWAYS have these fringe people that no law can control. They're not really the reason why we have the laws anyway. Laws are there for the most part as deterrents to the average Joe who might think about committing a crime. Take me for example, I don't even want to throw a piece of paper out the window for fear a Cop might see. Not that I would litter anyway, but you see my point.

    As far as your Japan story goes, that is quite possibly the lamest argument that I have ever heard. Take away the Death Penalty and he would not have killed those children?

    That's just silly.
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  25. #50
    SitePoint Addict Brian Asselin's Avatar
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    Originally posted by aspen


    What are you talking about? Its not a circle. If someone plants a bomb that kills 168 people we're going to kill them.

    Death is the consequence of mass murder. Any criminal wanting to commit mass murder will have to do so knowing that if we catch him he will die. That fact may deter him from his course of action thus saving lives.
    Who was sentenced to death for the 80 or so people killed in Waco? Point being mcviegh said he did it because of the people killed in waco. government kill in waco > mcveigh kills in Oklahoma > goverment kills mcveigh. that is full circle. How long will it be bfore some lunatic kills because of mcveigh being killed, then they will in turn kill that person.

    Death penalty isn't going to stop anyone. People who do thing like mcviegh are either insane, or don't care if they die, a long as they "get their message across".


    A quote from the European Parliament:

    "When a man kills, and especially when he kills 170 people, there is no equivalent. It serves no one for the state and the criminal to outbid each other over death."



    And From Amnesty:

    The McVeigh case presented an opportunity for the U.S. government to cease their support of a policy "that allows the murderer to set society's moral tone by imitating what it seeks to condemn, Instead, the U.S. government has put its official stamp of approval on this policy; killing, it says, is an appropriate response to killing."


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